Joel Posted July 6, 2012 Report Share Posted July 6, 2012 The whole of the uk has not just given up on malifaux. 3 players have decided to stop playing. 3 respected tournament players (only one of of whom I have met - nice bloke too) to be sure, but malifaux is not just its tournament scene. I can understand their frustrations and their reasons, but I find that my own tolerance threshold is far, far higher than theirs, mostly because I've been putting up with GW for 7 years. Since I have started malifaux, just 5 months ago, I have seen erratas and FAQs produced, and plenty of evidence that wyrd are responsive to criticism. It might have been a long time coming for them, but obviously our relative positions are different. I hope the enjoy whichever game they move to, if any. For myself, and my growing local malifaux community, we'll be here, attending and running events, as will many others all over the UK. Don't write the island off just yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted July 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 6, 2012 3 respected tournament players (only one of of whom I have met - nice bloke too) to be sure, but malifaux is not just its tournament scene. I actually think that this attitude is pretty central to the discussion, tbh. The game is not great at a tournament level or at a level where people play competitively (this doesnt just include tournaments; plenty of people play games competitively but never go to a tournament. Every player who posts on a forum asking for tactical advice for example, is taking the game at least somewhat seriously). The problems exist at a fun level, but are less evident (and/or people care less about them). The thing is... because at a fun level they're less evident or relevant, Wyrd could make changes to the game to make the serious players happy (fixing model and rules balance) without having any negative impact on the fun players. So I don't really understand why there is so much resistance to change, when the changes have, at worst, a neutral effect but massively improve the game for others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy in Suit Posted July 6, 2012 Report Share Posted July 6, 2012 I really do wish they'd just re-point the lagging models so that when my friend puts an Ice Golem or Hoarcat Pride on the table I can keep a straight face. You don't have to release new cards just to change a models cost. Anyone who gives half a bother can look it up or just remember - and people that can't be bothered won't care in the first place. Who knows, they might sell a few more figs in the process. Still though, compared to GW, Wyrd's errata's/FAQ's are immensely better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgraz Posted July 6, 2012 Report Share Posted July 6, 2012 So I don't really understand why there is so much resistance to change, when the changes have, at worst, a neutral effect but massively improve the game for others. This is your opinion. I disagree that some of your proposed changes would be neutral at worst. I do agree that there could be some changes made that would better the game as a whole but I don't think that the company should make the sweeping changes that you recommend just to kow-tow to a few people that are obviously the minority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UberGruber Posted July 6, 2012 Report Share Posted July 6, 2012 You don't have to release new cards just to change a models cost. Anyone who gives half a bother can look it up or just remember - and people that can't be bothered won't care in the first place. This is something of a fallacy. As soon as you get a player who's 'up to date' with any online 'fixes' playing someone who is not, you have opened the door to an immediate bone of contention (though gratted this is usually more prevelant with 'Cuddling' a model than boosting it). I don't object in the least to the game becoming better balanced (so long as that is genuine balance and not merely 'fixing' a perceived problem like what level of randomness is acceptable, and so long as there are not continual and interminable updates as new 'fixes' lead different people to complain of imbalance), but I do object to the notion that only players who regularly look for updates should be catered for. It's astonishing, and a very insular view, that those who do not should be deemed not to care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted July 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 6, 2012 This is your opinion. I disagree that some of your proposed changes would be neutral at worst. I do agree that there could be some changes made that would better the game as a whole but I don't think that the company should make the sweeping changes that you recommend just to kow-tow to a few people that are obviously the minority. You miss the point - it's not about my changes or anybody else's changes, and that list was not made with the expectation that it would *actually happen*. The point is that something needs to happen, and whatever that something is, shouldn't affect players that play for fun or casually because those players have no issues with model abilities regardless of what they are. If they do have opinion on a model's stats and its balancing, then they aren't the fun/casual players they're claiming to be. Can't have it both ways! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronChief Posted July 6, 2012 Report Share Posted July 6, 2012 Chinese Proverb: "Men in the game are blind to what men looking on see clearly." I also think: "The road to hell (or Malifaux) is paved with good intentions." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Posted July 6, 2012 Report Share Posted July 6, 2012 This is something of a fallacy. As soon as you get a player who's 'up to date' with any online 'fixes' playing someone who is not, you have opened the door to an immediate bone of contention (though gratted this is usually more prevelant with 'Cuddling' a model than boosting it). On a planet of smart phones, its hard to imagine this being an issue. And if it is, then we also live in a world of printers. If you like latest errata, bring latest errata. I found the comp list posting with soul stone adjustments to be quite appealing for getting out lesser used models without having to do surgery on them. While its hard to justify some of them for regular use for their cost, the idea of changing their cost is appealing to me. Not having to learn new rules for them and such and go about getting new cards, etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UberGruber Posted July 6, 2012 Report Share Posted July 6, 2012 (edited) On a planet of smart phones, its hard to imagine this being an issue. It may surprise you to learn that not everyone has a smartphone. If you like latest errata, bring latest errata is entirely the attitude I'm talking about. It stems from the viewpoint of the dedicated player. All well and good if you play similarly dedictated players. Not so great if you play someone who is keen on the game but not to the level they want to frequent its website on the offchance of updates. this is nothing to do with how seriously they play the game, but everything to do with how much time they want to spend chasing the latest 'fix'. I know several people who are havering about Mailfaux at the moment because they don't want to buy a game that is in mid-update and several who have invested but (while like me would not object to 'solid' fixes that lasted some years) are uncertain as to whether to continue. We play the game competitively in that we play to win. We'd like to stick with it. We're not inclined to see a game in semi-permanent flux where there's ever changing errata and FAQ. Edited July 6, 2012 by UberGruber Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel Posted July 6, 2012 Report Share Posted July 6, 2012 I actually think that this attitude is pretty central to the discussion, tbh. The game is not great at a tournament level or at a level where people play competitively (this doesnt just include tournaments; plenty of people play games competitively but never go to a tournament. Every player who posts on a forum asking for tactical advice for example, is taking the game at least somewhat seriously). The problems exist at a fun level, but are less evident (and/or people care less about them). The thing is... because at a fun level they're less evident or relevant, Wyrd could make changes to the game to make the serious players happy (fixing model and rules balance) without having any negative impact on the fun players. So I don't really understand why there is so much resistance to change, when the changes have, at worst, a neutral effect but massively improve the game for others. The thing is, this same debate is occurring in all miniatures wargames that I know (with the exception go blood bowl). Warhammer fantasy has been going through this forever - its still not a good, by which I mean balanced, for competitive play. Don't get me started on 40k. They often go down the route of comp. Now, from my experience I believe that comp doesn't fix problems as much as it simply moves them about (moving the deck chairs on the Titanic). Doing similar for malifaux would simply do similar. That said, going to comped Warhammer events can be fun, as can no-comp ones. I'm sure the same is true with malifaux. I don't think, however, that making a tournament competitive game should be the focus for Wyrd. Making a balanced and fun game should be - if that means players A) have fun spend money on models C) have obvious enjoyment in playing it that brings other players in Then that is the route they should go, from a business point of view if nothing else. I like attending events, and I am a competitive player. Warhammer was like that for me....and it got stale. Malifaux has me from a different angle. I find it easier to enjoy the fluff While playing the game than I ever did with WFB. I am less bothered when I lose a game. I still play to win, but it's also easier (and cheaper) to be experimental with lists. I'm finding my hobby more fun and my attitude to be.....well I guess the word is healthier (mentally speaking). Now, that said, I am giving UKrocky's comp an honest go at the moment to see how it fits....but without a Hamelin player at our club we are currently seeing games going to the player with the greater skill and experience most of the time. That seems as it should be to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Posted July 6, 2012 Report Share Posted July 6, 2012 (edited) It may surprise you to learn that not everyone has a smartphone. if no one around you has a smartphone and you don't have a printer at home and the store does not have a computer and no one else playing has the errata, then sure, you are stuck. Like I said, if you wanna use errata, bring it with you to the store. Edited July 6, 2012 by Gruesome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vargas79 Posted July 6, 2012 Report Share Posted July 6, 2012 The thing is... because at a fun level they're less evident or relevant, Wyrd could make changes to the game to make the serious players happy (fixing model and rules balance) without having any negative impact on the fun players. So I don't really understand why there is so much resistance to change, when the changes have, at worst, a neutral effect but massively improve the game for others. I thoroughly agree with this very very reasonable point. Even at the "fun" level my gaming group played at, we had to self regulate by essentially banning the likes of Hamelin, The Dreamer, Pandora and allowing for reflips on certain strategies. We have recently also moved on from Malifaux which is a shame as it is almost amazing. Anyhow, on a personal note, you provided me with a tonne of Ressurectionist advice which I thank you for, and kept me entertained by playing the forum villain admirably. Your presence on the forums will be missed...by me at least. Good luck with family life! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgraz Posted July 6, 2012 Report Share Posted July 6, 2012 You miss the point - it's not about my changes or anybody else's changes, and that list was not made with the expectation that it would *actually happen*. The point is that something needs to happen, and whatever that something is, shouldn't affect players that play for fun or casually because those players have no issues with model abilities regardless of what they are. If they do have opinion on a model's stats and its balancing, then they aren't the fun/casual players they're claiming to be. Can't have it both ways! I believe you are missing my point and putting definitions on others that you have no right to make. My point was that you are the minority. No offense intended. But just because you scream the longest or loudest doesn't mean things are going to change the way you want them to if the majority of the community doesn't agree with you. Just because I have an opinion on a model's stats doesn't make me uber-competitive or less of a 'fun' player. You're attempting to put a black and white definition on me when I am gray. The black and white extremes are the minority (people that care about everything and people that care about nothing) and the gray is the majority (people that want to play a game with some depth to it - that want to compete and have fun but don't care whether they win or lose - there are too many to list). You claim something needs to happen. Things are happening...the Errata and FAQ just came out, the Dreamer got some attention.....the things you want changed aren't happening in your perceived time-line so Wyrd has dropped the ball? Perhaps I'm putting the wrong spin on it but that makes you sound like a spoiled child? (I don't believe you are so don't be offended). You come up with these great ideas and suggestions that spur pages and pages of thought and dialogue. Wyrd even respects you enough to respond to and even tell you that some of the things are being looked at and worked on but that isn't enough for you. It is obvious that nothing except the changes you want will make you happy. I am sorry for you that you feel that way. I sincerely hope that you can find something that will make you happy. Congrats on having a child on the way and good luck with whatever you decide to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted July 6, 2012 Report Share Posted July 6, 2012 Have a good one, Calmdown! You leaving will make the forums a lot more boring and less insightful. Best of luck with the startup and the future wee one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edonil Posted July 6, 2012 Report Share Posted July 6, 2012 Haven't always agreed with you, but I do have a lot of respect for you. Thank you for your contributions over the year that I've been playing, we'll miss your presence on the boards and in the game. Congrats on the little one, and best of luck to you with whatever you go to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bashamer Posted July 6, 2012 Report Share Posted July 6, 2012 leave + firesale usually means a rage quit; it is like the equivalent of deleting your account in an online game. my advice would be to pack up your stuff; stash it in a closet and see if you miss it. When you know you don't miss it it is easy to just flush it trough ebay (or whatever) as you really don't care about what the auctions do. Some of your reasoning is pretty crappy; but I doubth that matters as this is mostly an emotional thing now. But that is the bane of the bleeding edge; sometimes the lag can kill the momentum and fun can turn to frustration. Oh well; for me this is a new game; I'll enjoy it. I'm looking forward to gencon to see how the competitive scene works out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forar Posted July 6, 2012 Report Share Posted July 6, 2012 Now now. Dont you americans pretend you know anything about countries outside of America. ;-) That's unfair. It's just that the manner of teaching Americans where a country is ends up far too often being included in an info dump along with why bombing began half an hour ago. >.> Credit to Jon Stewart, who probably wasn't the first with that bit, but I'm pretty sure that's where I heard it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted July 6, 2012 Report Share Posted July 6, 2012 I can understand their frustrations and their reasons, but I find that my own tolerance threshold is far, far higher than theirs ... Since I have started malifaux, just 5 months ago, I have seen erratas and FAQs produced, and plenty of evidence that wyrd are responsive to criticism It might have been a long time coming for them, but obviously our relative positions are different. I really like you Joel, just don't confuse tolerance with ignorance. You acknowledge our relative positions are different, so bear in mind Wyrd releasing a FAQ (once again with numerous issues in it, but that's another conversation) within the first few months of you starting Malifaux doesn't make them "responsive" - it just makes it a "coincidence". You're new to the game, you're enthusiastic, you're competitive and you've bought into the game heart and soul - much like I did when I first started playing 3 or 4 years ago. But don't let that blinker you to objective reality, that way lies fanboyism *wink* And for the record, it's more than three players who've shelved their fate decks. For example (in terms of people you know) aka_hazard who you met at the tournament in Cranfield is also on a very long "break" from the game - again because of Wyrd's inability to sort the rules out. And that's just one example. ---------- Post added at 09:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:42 PM ---------- but without a Hamelin player at our club we are currently seeing games going to the player with the greater skill and experience most of the time. FOR F**KS SAKE!!!! Why does everyone immediately put winning with Hamelin down to his crew being broken and the player devoid of skill? This is a prime example of the problem Wyrd have created. Oh well; for me this is a new game; I'll enjoy it. I'm looking forward to gencon to see how the competitive scene works out. Two things I've noticed. There are a lot of people coming out of the woodwork who've quit or are quitting the game, and the biggest defenders of Malifaux and the system are people who are new to the game (the old guard so to speak seem to be quite "understanding" of the points we're raising). Ignorance is bliss yo... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgraz Posted July 6, 2012 Report Share Posted July 6, 2012 (the old guard so to speak seem to be quite "understanding" of the points we're raising). Yeah, I'm definitely new to the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Caroland Posted July 6, 2012 Report Share Posted July 6, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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