an alternate 20 point core for Lilith (Sorrows)

[bashamer]

Neverborn Crew - 20 - Scrap

Lilith, Mother of Monsters

--

8 Pool

+ Lilith, Avatar of Nature's Malevolence

[2ss]

• Sorrow
  [3ss]
  
  
• Sorrow
  [3ss]
  
  
• Arcane Effigy
  [4ss]
  
  
• Brutal Effigy
  [4ss]
  
  

So ran it once and it worked suprisingly well;

The plan was to go avatar turn 5 or 6 after 6 soulstoned earthquakes. Move people out of position, then spawn 3-4 forests to keep them out of position.

So Lillith doesn't normally cast much, but with this setup you can actually cast a lot; earthquaking 6 times just to move your own stuff is totally viable.

Tranpositions cast on Sorrows is also fantastic, I grab your dude, swap it with a sorrow. kill your dude that showed up next to lillith (and the other sorrow might have cast Alluring) and probably gets killed. The the transpostioned sorrow snaps back via link.

All in all it worked pretty well and I'm planning on using this core more. I dislike my options for the remaining 5/10 points as running stitched is getting old. at 35 points you should have more options.

Also after seeing the bunching up effects I think Tuco is a great fit, but then the question is as to what to do with remaining points.

[Finnegan]

A very intriguing idea

Just to be clear, when you say you spawned 3-4 forests, you do mean you moved the Illusionary forest around, not that you accumulated them, right? Can't accumulate them

For further development, you could consider the Doppleganger - copy link without Life Leech and you have another Transpositionable model that won't hurt you. Also works as an additional damage-dealer if you copy Lilith's weapon (though you do keep the DG's Cb :/ )

Another option is Coppelius, who could go around Paralyzing clumps of enemies or straggers.

[bashamer]

when Lillith goes avatar you get to place 3 forests w/in 12". That is actually the best ability she has as an avatar in my mind; but you gota read the fine print of the manifestation to know about it.

plus then you can cast the spell for more forests.

[Sliver Chocobo]

Wow this list is terrible, sorrow's are fragile any force on them would probably kill them, there insignificant, the only model capable of dealing damage is Lilith, replace the sorrows with tots and get that arcane effigy out of there, it's good, but too expensive this when you this low on points

[Chookie]

Wow this list is terrible, sorrow's are fragile any force on them would probably kill them, there insignificant, the only model capable of dealing damage is Lilith, replace the sorrows with tots and get that arcane effigy out of there, it's good, but too expensive this when you this low on points

That's a bit rough. I think Bashammer is more interested in experimenting with alternative ideas. This list isn't designed to be a big smashy force, but one that play all sorts of silly buggers, transpositions, multiple forests. I think it could work well in some encounters where controlling the enemy's movement is a priority.

I do think the lack of significant models could be something to look at though.

[Q'iq'el]

It is also a 20SS game. You are not going to see all that many high-damage dealers on the other side of the table, at that size of the game. If one or two appear, then you have Lilith to deal with them and most of the time she's fast enough to catch them first.

Lack of significant models is an issue, indeed, but then you know if you need significant models or not before you select the crew, so it is not a problem for the build.

The biggest problem I see may be with the lack of Blood Counters. Lilith's avatar needs some of those to cast her spells, but you can't count on the non-Nephilim models to gather any before the manifestation (and as the OP said, Lilith is going to be busy casting, so she won't be killing stuff).

[bashamer]

I think this would make a pretty bad 20 pt list; 8ss would be kinda dumb in my oppinion.

It also isn't intended as a list, just as a core. Also Effigies are significant (I'm prety sure) so I have 2 insignificant models.

So in small point games you have 6 AP for casting and stuff. Lillith can pretty easily murder their smaller models w/ transposition. 1 sorrow cast alluring, the free AP from the effigy gives you your transposition; swap w/ a sorrow and you have 3 AP to try and kill it (and an effective +2CB.) end your activation and your sorrow snaps back. The last AP from the sorrow can place a forest to mitigate ranged attacks. any spare AP can be blown on earthquakes or other stuff. if people bring big melee beatsticks they tend to have crummy DEF, and earthquakes can keep them out of the fight for a while; especially when you are willing to spend soulstones on them.

Earthquaking 6 times a turn is an interesting option, but not really something you do every turn unless it is a large game and you are bussing entire armies around. It is also potent turn 5-6 as it means some armies just can't get to objectives. any slower warband will have fits with all the movement from the earthquakes.

As for the avatar, it is not the goal. It is a turn 5-6 reinforcement. I don't want to bring her out early as it buys me nearly nothing. I want to bring her out when I need to put 3 forrests into my opponents face.

[Eyclonus]

I think the idea is sound, however its inefficient when you scale this upwards, at 30+ss you're opponent is going to be building crews with more diverse elements. They will have the opportunity to both take what they need to complete their objectives and a few beatsticks to slow you down. Whereas you will be struggling to work out how to keep up with the escalation of diversity and power without compromising this core selection that focuses on a singular combo. It also has the weakness of draining the health of your master with Sorrow's Link, and at 30+ss that becomes a liability.

[Sliver Chocobo]

That's a bit rough. I think Bashammer is more interested in experimenting with alternative ideas. This list isn't designed to be a big smashy force, but one that play all sorts of silly buggers, transpositions, multiple forests. I think it could work well in some encounters where controlling the enemy's movement is a priority.

I do think the lack of significant models could be something to look at though.

Replacing the brutal effigy with Tuco would be more effective. Even the lack of Wp duels means the sorrow's arn't really doing anything. Tot are more effective and useful

[bashamer]

well; thank god that nothing makes me feel good about a list like having people tell me it sucks on forums.

Gona bring this to gencon and gona have a hell of a lot of fun with it.

[Sliver Chocobo]

well; thank god that nothing makes me feel good about a list like having people tell me it sucks on forums.

Gona bring this to gencon and gona have a hell of a lot of fun with it.

Sorry, for being harsh

[Fetid Strumpet]

Interesting idea, not 100% certain how effective it would be, mainly because there is so much that won't care about forests (Spirits and Scouts are everywhere), but it looks different and fun. I have a quick question however, who are you using Transposition on to kill things? Lilith can't use Transposition on herself, as it is an attack, and models cannot attack themselves.

I'd say if nothing else that this list needs to include a Totem or Doppleganger so that you can Transposition Lilith. Don't forget you are using the Neverborn, and they can use the Effigies and Totems together without penalty.

[bashamer]

Actually I'm honest.

That is how I found what I like in Infinity (running 4+ irregular models per combat group).

Infinity and Malifaux are both old enough to have enough roup think going on as to how to play the game. And that makes creating rogue lists all sorts of fun; because you have a combination of the suprise, underestimation & still plenty to discover in value.

I don't like group think, and I relish in finding new nitches; and that is impossible w/o dismissal of things that are different.

---------- Post added at 09:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:40 AM ----------

lillith doesn't go in to kill, lillith summons the things she wants to kill.

So I cast transposition from lillith on a sorrow against a model going for an objective 12" away. Swap the grabber w/ the sorrow, lillith kills the grabber. Activation ends, sorrow returns to lillith.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Hmmm interesting idea, very like a showgirl crew, great thinking. How are you avoiding the wounds that the Sorrows are going to be causing Lilith, or are you just taking them?

[Marcalla]

I would consider adding the Cherub. Might as well save Liliths Ap's for killin and casting other things, plus it allows you to transpose Lilith if the need arises.

---------- Post added at 09:20 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:19 AM ----------

Hmmm interesting idea, very like a showgirl crew, great thinking. How are you avoiding the wounds that the Sorrows are going to be causing Lilith, or are you just taking them?

I was wondering about this as well.

[Finnegan]

Hmmm interesting idea, very like a showgirl crew, great thinking. How are you avoiding the wounds that the Sorrows are going to be causing Lilith, or are you just taking them?

I think that's why he brought the Brutal Effigy - Neverborn are very short of healing models, but they can hire this one from the Guild at no cost

[Hateful Darkblack]

This looks like a lot of fun, and strategically interesting. I love how you say from the start "This works surprisingly well" -- that is, that it's better in practice than in theoryfaux -- and then people jump out and tell you they disapprove in theory.

[Eyclonus]

If I were to run this at say 35ss, I'd take Coppelius or a Mature Nephilim (depending on whether I can get indications if my opponent is going construct heavy or not etc) and have Lilith use her ability to chain activate this Nephilim elite to help finish the job. Whilst the Mature offers great damage, Coppelius can theoretically lockdown the model with paralysed if its too tough to be killed in one turn, his other well known abilities will also help contain it or deter anyone pushing forward to stop the combo.

[Ozz]

There is also the arcane effigy (if i remember right) To give Lilith a casting action, then she just has 3 actions after transposition to smash face with

[the junkie]

I played paired with this list and the lilith bus works. Try it before you trash it. The wounds are healed by the brutal. The avatar is just there to change the game on the opponent when they are out of time to react.

[Undisclosed]

Hmm, very interesting. It's something different, i'll give this a go and see. Not gonna knock it till i've tried it

[Eyclonus]

Alright, if this is your core, what would you use for mobility to complete objectives?

Specifically to capitalize on the models you're already using.

[bashamer]

the brutal effigy can move 20" a turn.

how much mobility do you need ?

[Eyclonus]

Its better to have something that is mobile that isn't key to this setup.

I'm not knocking it, now, at first I was like "no this makes no sense" but now I can see it being useful with some things. Its just that once you propose to shake up how Lilith plays, which you have fulfilled, you should kind of refine the point. What would make this better?

Edited June 9, 2012 by Eyclonus
Poor grammar

[bashamer]

well in a 30 point game you have 10 extra points to spend.

Need mobility; terror tots are good

You can use Tuco w/ earthquakes to keep him out of combat and bunch up enemies for blasts.

you can bring 2 stitched together as you can negate their mobility issues & need more WP defense.

Really anything that is "slow" is going to be fast; even teddy can terrifying as he can launch into the fight turn 2; turn 1 if they are silly and get w/in 22" of his starting position.