Uses for the Hunter

[MrKittens]

Hey all,

I recently bought the Hoffman box set, and am going to start playing it soon. I've read several threads that suggest the Peacekeeper and Ryle as highly recommended additions, and I'll make up my mind between the Attendant and the Toolkit at some point. However, I've never seen anyone post a list with a Hunter; I've actually seen several people say negative things about it.

Since I *do* have it, and it is 1/3 of my current constructs, what do I do with it? Just use it for now, 'till I can replace it with something better? Replace it with some Ortegas (I got the Perdita box set, too) as a waste of stones? What advice do you have for someone with a Hunter?

[Rathnard]

Okay, so keeping in mind that I've never used Hoffman before, but know the game back to front...

To me, the Hunter is a model that can be used and remain effective while independent of the Hoff-ball (ie. that mass of constructs you tend to place Hoffman in the centre of). It's fast and has a decent damage output, but it's not amazing. So you need to use it to engage isolated targets or take lightly defended objectives (multiple objective games like Line in the Sand are the kind of Strategies Hoffman has trouble with).

Other than that, you could also see him as a cheap source of three scrap counters. So you do what you can with the Hunter, watch it die, and then use the scrap for actions like Detonate Scrap or Combat Mechanic.

The Hunter could also tow Hoffman along, but better choices tend to be the Peacekeeper, Warden or even a Mechanical Rider.

The most direct alternative to the Hunter is the Large Steampunk Arachnid, who from memory tends to be better for the same cost. It's a Special Forces: M&SU asset though, so you can't use him with Ryle or Lucius (who are Special Forces: Elite Division models).

[Turbodog]

Welcome!

All respects to Rathnard (who has fantastic experience with the game and figuring out models).

I do own and play Hoffman and have used the hunter quite a bit. I'll offer the following opinions/feedback on Rath's advice.

In my experience, the hunter is not a "fast" model. It does walk at 5", but it's large base size means it often has to deal with terrain or "going around" other models. Since it doesn't have anything to ignore terrain movement penalties (like the peacekeeper or warders do) and it doesn't have pass through to ignore models, and it doesn't have nimble or other ways to easily generate AP, it feels slow to me. Espcecially when Hoffman is "attached" to a peacekeeper with arachnid.

What does make the hunter significantly faster than many model is the Shadow ability. The free movement with shadow can allow the hunter to engage quickly. But...

Away from guardian/hoffman the hunter is really quite fragile. It's wounds, armor, and defense resemble more a 4 pt. guild guard or death marshall than a 6 pt. model. So while it can walk off on it's own to take an objective, I wouldn't trust it more than I would trust a solo guild guard doing the same.

That's why shadow is tricky. You don't want to overstretch yourself and just send it to it's doom. I've had more success using shadow as a deterrant than as actual movement.

The chain spear of the hunter offers some nice possibilities - but really needs Hoffman to machine puppet it to be a reliable weapon. Cb 4 is just not that terrific. So, again, the Hunter becomes something that benefits greatly from staying nearer to Hoffman, rather than running off on it's own.

Finally, one of the most successful uses I've had with the hunter is for it to be Hoffman's alternate carrier once the peacekeeper goes down. Again, for this reason, it's good to stay at least somewhat close to Hoffman.

So in play, I keep my hunter detached (not in base to base contact) from the "hoff-ball" of the guardian and peacekeeper - but within one walk action of them. He's used like I would use a death marshall, guild guard, or witchling - as counterattack or bait or extra activations as the need arises. But he does offer some unique utility and options for the crew as well (a timely arrest is a nice spell if you can pull it off).

I'll go ahead and note that when used like this, the Hunter is fulfilling a role that the new Warden can also easily fulfill, and with greater effect since it is more mobile. When taking into account the Warden is also cheaper by 1 ss - many people bypass hiring a hunter.

Good luck with the Hoffman!

[DocMoen]

I find that the best use for the Hunter is to remain in my bag away from all the scary fighting. It startles easily.

[dgraz]

but know the game back to front...

Isn't it tough to play the game backwards like that? You should at least try front to back....you'll probably enjoy the game much more.

[MrKittens]

So all in all, it seems like the Hunter is a defective model? Was I better off buying just Hoffman and skipping it, the Watcher and the Guardian, since everyone seems to want to run Peacekeepers, Ryle, Riders (of one variety or another) and Wardens with him? Was the boxset really that bad? Man, I feel foolish for not doing my research first.

[Gruesome]

So all in all, it seems like the Hunter is a defective model? Was I better off buying just Hoffman and skipping it, the Watcher and the Guardian, since everyone seems to want to run Peacekeepers, Ryle, Riders (of one variety or another) and Wardens with him? Was the boxset really that bad? Man, I feel foolish for not doing my research first.

Let me start by saying, I do not know much about the Hunter. What I *DO* know is that I bought the same boxset for my son as a gift for the summer and its sitting hidden in my office for another week before I give it to him so I hope that Hunter is not useless.

What I find here is that most models that are not optimal for their points get trashed. Not being optimal for the points is not even in the ballpark of being defective. I would not let such views make me feel bad about purchases.

I think that this thread could become useful if the tone of it changed from:

"Is the Hunter worth his points and where are the points better spent?"

to:

"What can we do to make the Hunter work as best as it can and what jobs/stategies/schemes would it be best at?"

There HAVE been some nice posts here, so this thread is not nearly as bad as others that are floating around, though.

I know that in a couple weeks after my son has the boxset and we've assembled and primed it, I might have something to say about its uses. (Assembled and primed is our criteria for playing... Actually painting our models is something we apparently like to do one week before Adepticon in an insane paint-fest week where we rush everything because there is too much to do)

Edited May 27, 2012 by Gruesome

[TheUnseemlyOne]

So all in all, it seems like the Hunter is a defective model? Was I better off buying just Hoffman and skipping it, the Watcher and the Guardian, since everyone seems to want to run Peacekeepers, Ryle, Riders (of one variety or another) and Wardens with him? Was the boxset really that bad? Man, I feel foolish for not doing my research first.

I wouldn't feel foolish. Although I find the Hunter to be the model in the box that I use the least, I still use everything in that box from time to time and still manage to do fairly well. The Guardian and Watcher generally see more use, but the hunter still has a place.

[sinistercats]

At the Nova Open last year Zee schooled lots of folks on using Hunter and Coppelius together. There's a lot of synergy there to be exploited...

[MrKittens]

The Guardian and Watcher generally see more use, but the hunter still has a place.

There's a lot of synergy there to be exploited...

OK, so, the Hunter "still has a place", and there's "synergy to be exploited." What's the place, and what synergy are you talking about? I still haven't had a chance to run the list, but the problems I've heard here (it's a run-solo unit in a brick army type) do seem quite crippling. What do I do?

[A_Hamster]

I find that the best use for the Hunter is to remain in my bag away from all the scary fighting. It startles easily.

*Snort* Well said, sir, well said!

Sadly, that has been my experience as well, even trying to use the Hunter in claiming isolated objective tokens/destroying evidence where the only guard is a Terror Tot. Hunter: 0. Terror Tot: 2

A Warder will take its place instead when the model comes out.

[GAH]

I like to use the Hunter with Leveticus, since it is fairly cheap for a large base and drops 3 scrap counters (3 more steampunk abominations). I think it might have some use with Ramos as well.

[Twisted Metal]

I like to use the Hunter with Leveticus, since it is fairly cheap for a large base and drops 3 scrap counters (3 more steampunk abominations). I think it might have some use with Ramos as well.

I disagree. If your spending Levi's ap making SPA's from scrap then your playing him wrong. Your better off turning your opponents into SPAs instead. Also at five points I wouldn't consider it cheap. I would much rather spend those points on a Belle.

[dunce002917]

Hey all,

I recently bought the Hoffman box set, and am going to start playing it soon. I've read several threads that suggest the Peacekeeper and Ryle as highly recommended additions, and I'll make up my mind between the Attendant and the Toolkit at some point. However, I've never seen anyone post a list with a Hunter; I've actually seen several people say negative things about it.

Since I *do* have it, and it is 1/3 of my current constructs, what do I do with it? Just use it for now, 'till I can replace it with something better? Replace it with some Ortegas (I got the Perdita box set, too) as a waste of stones? What advice do you have for someone with a Hunter?

I'm in the same position as you. I only have 1 game with the Hoffman box so take with a grain of salt. I use the Hunter as Hoffman's Machine Puppet Target of choice. Since the Guardian will be protecting Hoffman and the Watcher will be grabbing objectives.

Now, it depends on how many ss are in your encounter, some would suggest replacing the Hunter with another minion when your tight on ss. Would I field Ryle over the Hunter? Hmm.. it depends on the Schemes and Strategy. I'm sure when the Warden comes out, the Hunter will be further relegated to bench warmer status which I still do not understand.

[GAH]

I disagree. If your spending Levi's ap making SPA's from scrap then your playing him wrong. Your better off turning your opponents into SPAs instead. Also at five points I wouldn't consider it cheap. I would much rather spend those points on a Belle.

A Belle is great for Lure, but doesn't have the same role as a Hunter. I'm not saying I would only use it for the scrap counters, but when it dies (after dealing whatever damage I manage to do), I can still use it to make new SPAs.

I wouldn't take it for every game, but once in a while I can use it to achieve objectives.

[MrKittens]

Well, ok, a few good ideas. I have a couple specific questions about Hunter use, that might shake up a few extra replies.

What if I used the Hunter the way that people suggest I use the Peacekeeper, when I get one? IE, as a frontline fighter, getting extra armor from my Guardian, at the front of a Protect chain ending on Hoffman? It's still got a decent attack, and can reactivate for Flurry. It's not so ultra-super squishy that I need to worry about most things one-shotting it. What issues, or benefits, might I see with this use?

Yes, I know that other models are better. I'm just asking for what to do with the Hunter that I *do* have.

[Odin1981]

I find that the best use for the Hunter is to remain in my bag away from all the scary fighting. It startles easily.

Wow your aggresive I find the hunter is great at collecting dust on my shelf of models i'd never use unless someone where to pay me to play them section.

[Turbodog]

Wow. This really turned into a Hunter bashing thread. Poor Hunter!

I'm going to try to be more positive.

Tricks I've taught my Hunter.

1. Early game: Stand by or behind the Hoffball and stay! Good hunter.

2. Mid game: Engage small targets while under guardian's Stalwart that come too close to Hoffball. Take the crows in my hand to cast Arrest (since I don't use them for anything else) on models.

3. Mid/Late game: A) Provide Hoffman with alternate transport now that the peacekeeper/guardian is dead if things are going poorly. Run down and drag back models that are attempting to disengage from attacking the Hoffball if things are going good. <--- best use C) Provide a way to drag things into Hoffball from a flank if they are trying to escape around the Hoffball due to a strategy or scheme. D) Hunt down single, small, weak, and damaged isolated models with caution. <--- Almost never works E) Go somewhere safe to count as significant at the end of the encounter. F) Die to provide scrap counters for healing or blowing up. (can do this at any time, but not my favorite use of him.)

Does that give people some ideas?

---------- Post added at 10:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:01 AM ----------

Well, ok, a few good ideas. I have a couple specific questions about Hunter use, that might shake up a few extra replies.

What if I used the Hunter the way that people suggest I use the Peacekeeper, when I get one? IE, as a frontline fighter, getting extra armor from my Guardian, at the front of a Protect chain ending on Hoffman? It's still got a decent attack, and can reactivate for Flurry. It's not so ultra-super squishy that I need to worry about most things one-shotting it. What issues, or benefits, might I see with this use?

Yes, I know that other models are better. I'm just asking for what to do with the Hunter that I *do* have.

Seems like a good idea on paper - and it's good enough that the Hunter can be a backup transport for Hoffman. In reality the following REALLY hurts the Hunter in trying to be a Peackeeper in my games:

Peacekeeper gets (+1) Relentless giving it effectively a free walk. This allows it to move and still use flurry. Or double move and use it's chain spear. Or move once then charge. It's a massive boost to it's threat range, especially when combined with...

Arachnid = no movement penalties for severe terrain or climbing. The Peacekeeper truly is a TRANSPORT for Hoffman. The Hunter is nowhere near as good.

Also.

While the machine puppet attacks are equal CB and critical stirke from both models, the Peacekeeper's are paired (for melee). The Hunter has ambush (like paired IF the model hasn't activated yet) - but paired works at all times. Also the Peacekeeper's melee damage values are higher.

But the real kicker for me is...

Hoffman can make his attack role models awesome in two ways...machine puppet or override edict. There are different times to use each of these. So a machine puppeted Hunter is good, but a reactivated Hunter is only so-so. A machine puppeted Peackeeper is also good, and a reactivated Peacekeeper is phenomenal!

[GoodPhule]

I like the model so much and really the chainspear is great - both the idea of shooting through the enemies leg and pulling them back and the ability to confer slow.

I want to run it but each time I do it just seems to die too easily no matter what I do.

It really doesn't help when I come up against freekorps or ronin.

The hunter just never seems to do what I want and need it to.

[Dustcrusher]

Aren't the Warden and the hunter the same base size? Why not proxy the Hunter model as a Warden (it's a guard dog)?

Well, at least I have a new topic for my blog...

[Turbodog]

Aren't the Warden and the hunter the same base size? Why not proxy the Hunter model as a Warden (it's a guard dog)?

Don't look at the Rising Powers book...

Hunter is on a 50 mm base.

Warden is a 40 mm base. (Ryle is also on a 40 mm base for guild - opposed to what the bood says - so you could proxy with that for now...)

[GAH]

Is it wrong of me that I want to get a second Hunter to use with Hoffman?

[Headcase2]

I think we all agree the Hunter isn't a good model. There are some pretty decent uses for it though. If you're using a Mobile Toolkit (which I personally think isn't worth 4 points for Hoffman, unless you're brawling and have Ramos along as well) you can send the Hunter at a cluster of enemies quickly, use Controlled Detonation and then Detonate Scrap, for 5 automatic damage (actually 2+1+1+1, which is a lot better) in a fairly large area. This totally ruins Pandora's day.

[Mantis840]

I think the hunter is a bit pricey and would be better averaged at 5ss( personal opinion) i've found some excellent uses for him in my Justice crew.

1. 50mm base is nice to hide smaller models behind to get their shooters out of position or at least waste it on the hunter.

2.Los shadowing a model that moves alot allows the hunter to get into nice field position and tie up other models allowing justice to charge in after.

3.Ambush helps out immensley when combined with flurry after getting engaged and immune to influence helps with those pesky WP duels.( just wish it had a crit trigger like alot of other guild)

Summary: It wont be a stand alone game winner, but its ability to block and tie up is great, useing it as a cannon fodder model can do wonders allowing models like Justice, Nino, and Samael just enough time to get into position to unless their devastating attacks

[Headcase2]

Last Sunday I tried the Hunter again in a tournament setting, and it performed rather well. I kept it back a bit at the start, then went after vulnerable models on the flanks that hadn't activated yet (the Hoff-ball is tough enough that it can take most things your opponent throws at it, so it doesn't need to activate early in many cases). Most often he was able to take them out (with the support of a witchling when needed), and then used (0) shadow on a model on the other side of the board to get back into the fight quickly.

Somewhat situational, but I think I'll be using him more often. Also, see the thread about expanding the Hoffman box in this subforum; shutting down a shikome is priceless.