E.T.A. Hoffman Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Perhaps I'm misreading the new rule, but does the changes made to buried now imply that Lelu's can heal themsevles in teh closing phase, even if they are buried? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rancor709 Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Thats how im reading it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozz Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Lelu does dmg, Lelus healing is a combat spell. Lilitu does healing. They are in their own separate universes whilst buried (cant remember how Ratty phrased it) Lilitu, can not target herself with her healing due to it is target and i do believe that word means (unless stated otherwise) another model. And you can not activate, so no regen whilst off the table. I can not see any other way he would heal? So no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E.T.A. Hoffman Posted March 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Was it deceded that she couldn't target herself? thats strange Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Requirement Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 It was actually brought up in the Bury Errata thread (I think, may have been the lord chompy for some reason, who knows... I don't feel like re-reading 30 pages of posts again) and it was ruled that no, there is no healing in the box. Think of it like hockey... there is no scoring from the penalty box, try as you might. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CN the Logos Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 The real question is, since they're not in play but effects resolve as if they are, does Two Sided cause them to lose three wounds a turn if all your Twins are buried? If so, it looks like trying to move them with the Dreamer without taking damage from keeping them buried is going to be far more difficult. I hesitate to call it a "cuddle," because the Twins are good no matter what Neverborn master is leading them, but it should probably be taken into account when the game designers are deciding how much to change them (or increase their SS cost), as has been hinted might occur. Also during list building - are they still an auto-include? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E.T.A. Hoffman Posted March 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Great Jumpy jelly bean! If they cannot heal themselves while in teh box then they cannot take the damage from twisted fate (or whatevers) while in the box. So theres a way to mitigate that damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozz Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Was it deceded that she couldn't target herself? thats strangeNot sure about that, but when i started playing that is how "target" was described to me, and so i have just assumed it was correct, as it has made sense so far for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Pretty sure a model has to be in play to be a legal target. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CN the Logos Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Great Jumpy jelly bean! If they cannot heal themselves while in teh box then they cannot take the damage from twisted fate (or whatevers) while in the box. So theres a way to mitigate that damage. Two different things actually. Lilitu's healing ability requires her to target something while the models aren't there to target. Two Sided just says that the models suffer wounds, no targeting required. They could work in different ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister_Q Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Not sure about that, but when i started playing that is how "target" was described to me, and so i have just assumed it was correct, as it has made sense so far for me. Models can't target themselves with attacks. Lilitu's healing ability isn't an attack, so she should be fine to heal herself. Not sure about when she's buried though. End of turn effects still seem to go for buried models now (after the Bury errata), but if Lilitu is buried then there are no friendly Neverborn within 2" (not even herself) - so I think it would go off, but not have a valid model to effect. Two Sided could get nasty. It needs both twins in play or one takes wounds. If one or both are buried then it sounds like they'll both be taking 3 Wds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChefsDad Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Wait, what? Buried says in the game but not in play? So if both are not in play then they arent affected? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiralngCadavr Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Two Sided could get nasty. It needs both twins in play or one takes wounds. If one or both are buried then it sounds like they'll both be taking 3 Wds. This was the conclusion I came to, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fading Memory Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 (edited) Lilitu's ability says "Target Friendly Model" which means she is able to target any friendly model in range. Because of the "Friendly" she is able to heal herself. She is friendly to herself and she has LoS to herself Edited March 23, 2012 by Fading Memory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister_Q Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 Buried says in the game but not in play? So if both are not in play then they arent affected? If effects that happen at the end of the turn still occur with buried models then Two Sided will happen. With both of them buried there won't be the other "in play" so they'll both take 3 Wds. Lilitu's ability says "Target Friendly Model" which means she is able to target any friendly model in range. Because of the "Friendly" she is able to heal herself. She is friendly to herself and she has LoS to herself Not if she's buried though. If she's buried she's not in play, so she can't target herself even if her ability does go off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fading Memory Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 Not if she's buried though. If she's buried she's not in play, so she can't target herself even if her ability does go off. I guess I had the impression someone was referring to her being on the table, which is why I made that statement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poulpox Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 If effects that happen at the end of the turn still occur with buried models then Two Sided will happen. With both of them buried there won't be the other "in play" so they'll both take 3 Wds. Not if she's buried though. If she's buried she's not in play, so she can't target herself even if her ability does go off. +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChefsDad Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 Looks like no Lelu/Lilitu in a dreamer crew for me then! Am happy about the dreamer changes, but I feel like that further limits his crew. Not so chuffed about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soundwave Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 Looks like no Lelu/Lilitu in a dreamer crew for me then! Am happy about the dreamer changes, but I feel like that further limits his crew. Not so chuffed about that. At least he has a reason to have a crew now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 Looks like hide and seek will be his game now...at least he can do that well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oshova Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 If effects that happen at the end of the turn still occur with buried models then Two Sided will happen. With both of them buried there won't be the other "in play" so they'll both take 3 Wds. That sounds a little crazy to me. Although that is the way the rule seems to be written, I find it hard to believe that is the way it's meant to work. This also means however, if you have 1 on the table and 1 buried, only the one on the table would take wounds. Which is how it worked before anyway . . . but if both are buried, and they're taking wounds for it . . . that just feels a bit wrong to me. I hope we can get this cleared up soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E.T.A. Hoffman Posted March 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 I would find it hard to believe that buring one would count as applying wounds. The models are still alive and in play just not in the game at the moment. I don't think that they start taking ones. But, I believe that lilitu can heal herself. As it was said, she can target herself cause she is friendly and in LOS to herself. As I understand the rules on buried now, a model is still in play, just not on this game board. Think of it as, the model is now on a seperate table. Since it still has end of activation events occuring while in this netherworld, then its reasonable to assume that closing phase events happen. Let's assumet that Lilitu can heal herself. When she is buried, if its decided that she cannot heal herself, then that would mean she cannot take damage from the shared fate thing. Its all or nothing, models buried are either capable of being affected by thier own closing phase abilities or they are not. She cannot be hurt by one rule and not helped by the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CN the Logos Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 Looks like no Lelu/Lilitu in a dreamer crew for me then! Am happy about the dreamer changes, but I feel like that further limits his crew. Not so chuffed about that. That sounds a little crazy to me. Although that is the way the rule seems to be written, I find it hard to believe that is the way it's meant to work. This also means however, if you have 1 on the table and 1 buried, only the one on the table would take wounds. Which is how it worked before anyway . . . but if both are buried, and they're taking wounds for it . . . that just feels a bit wrong to me. I hope we can get this cleared up soon. Guys, it's really not a huge deal. I take the Twins with Lilith all the time, and I can assure everyone that they don't need to be shuttled around the battlefield with Bury to rock you like a hurricane. Although it does make things convenient and affects the way I'd play with them. It might be useful to start with them buried and have the Dreamer or a Daydream give them some extra movement in the first turn by moving forward and unburying them, or just start with them on the field, or bury and unbury them before they activate. I mean, I'm curious to know if my initial reaction (Two Sided will eat them if they're buried at the end of the turn!) was correct. That's why I asked. But I'm pretty sure the Twins are still good. ...Of course, now that I say that, it's only a matter of time before they cuddle them so hard they're unplayable. :Sad_Puppet2: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E.T.A. Hoffman Posted March 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 Honestly I don't know why every talks about them like there OP or something. Yes they are very good. But they also cost 14SS! No one is going to take just one cause they die. And because they die, if you take down one the other is sure to follow. So they are an expensive libility if things go wrong. And its not like they are terribly hard to kill. They are definetly resilient, but you can definetly take down Lelu in one go. I think the issue is that non neverborne players are attacks the strong models just because the are strong. I could pick a model from every crew and complian that its OP and give you good reason why. Everyone has access to beefy models. So I hope wyrd doesn't start chopping minions in half just cause of a few unhappy players. Cause its a cycle man, if the guild players complaing that lelu is OP then we'll complian that Ninyo (spelling?) is OP or any of the ortega's models (individually, not as a crew) and next thing you know all the models blow and I might as well play 40K. Fixing bust masters is one thing but attacking models just cause they are strong is another. So far Wyrd has done a good job. LCB and Hamlin need some work, cause hell they are very power. But, the ALPs is a great example of over zealous rewriting. I have no issue with the alps loosing all the extra damage they could do. I thought it was silly that three alps could output like 9 wounds a model whose only crime was activiting and trying to move. But, making them insig was over kill. It effectively made them worthless unless you summon them. That then leads people to assume things like, "Wyrd only cuddled the alps because people had already bought so many and now that the suck we'll habe to buy night terrors cause they are so much better, and it was wyrd's plan all along to sell more models." And once again we might as well play 40k. You see, its a terrible downward spiral and I hope wyrd stears clear of it. Because GW wasn't always the hated entity it is now. Once you go that path it leads to riots and pilliging, moral decay! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E.T.A. Hoffman Posted March 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 Lets say, the dreamer gives flurry to a stiched together and then buries it. At the end of the closing phase, that flurry disappears, per the new rule. That means that models buried still take close phase effect...correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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