Blinding Flash vs Scalpel Slinging

[Marcalla]

Hello gang,

I did a pretty extensive search on the timing of Blinding Flash in an attempt to figure out when the Colette moves, and when McMourning moves into contact with her.

For the purposes of this discussion McMourning damages (and wounds) Colette and a showgirl is within 18 inches.

I did find this thread, but couldn't find the original ruling just the pic on page 2. The "glitch" of this is that Scalpel Slingin's movement is part of the rules for the action which moves him to base contact with the target of the strike after Wounding the target (and not a trigger).

So, is it resolved as:

1) Colette takes Wounds, resolves Blinding flash and switches places with showgirl, then McMourning Scalpel slinging's push resolves and he is pushed into base with Colette.

2) Colette takes Wounds, McMourning's Scalpel slinging resolves moving him to base contact with Colette, then Colette's blinding flash resolves and she swaps with the showgirl.

3) Something else which you will be kind enough to explain.

[Calmdown]

Holy moly, this is an epic interaction!

I dont think there is any precedent or rules to cover it since both interactions happen at exactly the same time. Most games have an "active player chooses" or "active player effect happens first" rule to cover situations like this.

Whatever the ruling on this is, will set the precedent for future rulings on simultaneous occurrences I believe.

[Spiku]

page 6 timing: If an effect causes another effect, resolve the new effect fully first.

page 26 triggers; mentions the effects caused by triggers.

Scalpel Slinging is the first effect, when it wounds, you are still enacting part of the same thinger so this effect is paused completely. Blinding Flash is the newest effect and takes control. After resolving it, you return to Scalpel Slinging, which now pushes you into base contact.

If it weren't for the resolution of effects, you'd have the acting player complete first.

1) it is. Though I suspect Wyrd would rather it be 2).

[Alex]

I like this result, it's kind of hilarious.

[Calmdown]

page 6 timing: If an effect causes another effect, resolve the new effect fully first.

page 26 triggers; mentions the effects caused by triggers.

Scalpel Slinging is the first effect, when it wounds, you are still enacting part of the same thinger so this effect is paused completely. Blinding Flash is the newest effect and takes control. After resolving it, you return to Scalpel Slinging, which now pushes you into base contact.

If it weren't for the resolution of effects, you'd have the acting player complete first.

1) it is. Though I suspect Wyrd would rather it be 2).

Is damaging the defender an effect though?

[Spiku]

Damaging is part of the requirement of the trigger, which creates an effect; Scalpel slinging is in action during the strike it creates and base contact; the defensive trigger effect comes in to place off of the scalpel slinging effect.

[Calmdown]

Damaging is part of the requirement of the trigger, which creates an effect; Scalpel slinging is in action during the strike it creates and base contact; the defensive trigger effect comes in to place off of the scalpel slinging effect.

But the Scalpel slinging move is not necessarily an effect, and hence isn't necessarily paused.

Read back on some discussions of the word "effect" to see what I'm getting at.

[mythicFOX]

+1

I'm away from my Stat Cards at the moment. Can someone post the wording of the two abilities we're disussing. I always find that helps inform the situation.

[Spiku]

Do you mean move as in action, or move as in push =D

At present I'm at:

Page 26 mentions effect of the Trigger, cross referenced with page 19 to confirm that these are effects, and then back to page 6's second bulletpoint for the order:

Blinding Flash pauses Scalpel Sling and completes, as Scalpel Slinging is still being processed.

Now, I'm hesitant to suggest that as Scalpel Slinging requires damaged, and Blinding Flash requires being attacked, because I don't have the card, only the Book =D But by the book it would suggest that as you activate triggers (lowest result first) in the totals resolution step, and resolve them before damage, Blinding Flash would go off first anyway. I've only got the book though =3

Edit;

Oh yeah e_e Time for a complete action vs trigger rehash despite the push being an effect of an action.

Edited March 5, 2012 by Spiku

[CannonFodder]

order:

Blinding Flash pauses Scalpel Sling and completes, as Scalpel Slinging is still being processed.

I would agree with This, Scalpel sling sais after damaging or Resolving attack move him into base contact. While Colettes trigger is immediate and no condition, So in theory you switch when announced before the damage flip.

[Calmdown]

I would agree with This, Scalpel sling sais after damaging or Resolving attack move him into base contact. While Colettes trigger is immediate and no condition, So in theory you switch when announced before the damage flip.

Read the previous blinding flash thread. It's not quite that easy (at least, I dont think!)

[von Clausewitz]

I am at work on my phone so I can't post a full explanation with links provided (I will when I get home in a few hours), but based on the wording of the two abilities McMourning will end up in base contact no matter how far away Colette is.

[Dustcrusher]

Scorpion from Mortal Kombat envies McMourning even more now.

[Calmdown]

Scorpion from Mortal Kombat envies McMourning even more now.

Except instead of "get over here" he'd say "Im coming over there"?

[CRC]

Since Blinding Flash goes off "After an attack has resolved", surely the Scalpel Slingin' goes off first (during resolution of the attack, after wounds have been dealt), and then Colette jumps off to safety.

[Spiku]

Blinding flash goes off when damage is dealt, which is before the strike is finished resolving; see the attachment in my post

[von Clausewitz]

Blinding flash goes off when damage is dealt, which is before the strike is finished resolving; see the attachment in my post

My Stat card says nothing about damage being dealt for "blinding flash". It says "the model that attacked this model receives slow. Switch this model and one other friendly showgirl within 18.""

This indicates that the trigger resolves before the damage step.

Also, an important distinction about the wording for scalpel slinging is that it occurs when a model is wounded, not after damaging. Thus it occurs whithin the damage step, rather than after the damage step is resolved. Either way, blinding flash is resolved first, then the damage step occurs and as part of that mcmourning is pushed into base contact with a Colette that is now across the board.

---------- Post added at 08:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:22 PM ----------

Do you mean move as in action, or move as in push =D

At present I'm at:

Page 26 mentions effect of the Trigger, cross referenced with page 19 to confirm that these are effects, and then back to page 6's second bulletpoint for the order:

Blinding Flash pauses Scalpel Sling and completes, as Scalpel Slinging is still being processed.

Now, I'm hesitant to suggest that as Scalpel Slinging requires damaged, and Blinding Flash requires being attacked, because I don't have the card, only the Book =D But by the book it would suggest that as you activate triggers (lowest result first) in the totals resolution step, and resolve them before damage, Blinding Flash would go off first anyway. I've only got the book though =3

Edit;

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4147[/ATTACH]

Oh yeah e_e Time for a complete action vs trigger rehash despite the push being an effect of an action.

There is a more recent post by Keltheos that details the damage step and when triggers occur.

http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?20176-Order-of-resolution-of-triggers-(eg-Ronin-Run-Through-vs-BOOM!)&p=230593&viewfull=1

[Spiku]

von Clausewitz:

If you note from the attachment:

Damage Sequence Begins

Before damage triggers activate

Check attacking model state and apply modifiers (slow)

Check defending model state and apply modifiers (switch)

Fate flip for damage and note damage value

During damage triggers activate

Edit: Writing my post before your second post turned up, not bothering to change this post ;D

[Kadeton]

The main confusion here is when A Blinding Flash takes effect. I don't recall it ever being ruled on, can anyone confirm? That ability badly needs an errata to give it a timing cue.

[Twisted Metal]

This is one of those interactions where im not even going to try to figure it out. I'll wait till its ruled on and then go with the "its works like this because Ratty said so" method.

[von Clausewitz]

The main confusion here is when A Blinding Flash takes effect. I don't recall it ever being ruled on, can anyone confirm? That ability badly needs an errata to give it a timing cue.

Blinding flash resolves before the damage step. It does so because a) It does not say "after damage" or "after resolving the strike" and therefore resolves at step F. of the strike sequence. And because "blinding flash" triggers even if the attacker misses with the attack, meaning there is no damage step for it to occur after as the damage step does not take place if the attack is unsuccessful.

The timing for the scalpel slinging push is also quite clear based on Keltheos' damage step chart. There is no ambiguity here. The rules neatly provide all the information for the correct timing resolution of this sequence.

[13th Warrior]

There are actually two versions of the Trigger wording out there, apparently dependent on when the cards were printed - there's the Book 2 version that's on the early cards:

Blinding Flash: The model that attacked this model receives Slow. Switch this model and one other friendly Showgirl within 18

And the version that appears on later cards:

Blinding Flash: After an attack has resolved, the model that attacked this model receives Slow. Switch this model and one other friendly Showgirl within 18

It came up as part of this thread

This says to me (based on the later cards) that McM should push into base contact, then the trigger would take effect and Colette would swap out.

Cheers

Rob

[mythicFOX]

Good catch Rob!

The later wording probably needs to go on malifaux.com.

With that wording McMourning would move, then Colette would move.

[von Clausewitz]

There are actually two versions of the Trigger wording out there, apparently dependent on when the cards were printed - there's the Book 2 version that's on the early cards:

And the version that appears on later cards:

It came up as part of this thread

This says to me (based on the later cards) that McM should push into base contact, then the trigger would take effect and Colette would swap out.

Cheers

Rob

If this is indeed true, and I have no reason to doubt that it is, then yes, McMourning would push, then Colette would swap. I got my Colette crew only about two months ago so I assumed my card would be up to date, but apparently it is not. Thanks for the heads up Rob.

[Jewomie]

Von, i had the same issue. I saw no correction or errata on the site, so i figured her card was accurate. Then when we started talking about it on the other thread, i realized that no one else was reading from the same card as i was.

haha, crazy stuff.

[Kadeton]

Thanks Rob! That definitely needs to go up on the Changes to Cards page.