More broken bury shennanigans

[magicpockets]

In my never ending mission to abuse the bury mechanic, can I check my thinking is right on this -

1. Hoffman casts (2)Override Edict on an enemy SS Miner to get an activation

2. Hoffman activates the miner and with it's last AP does (1) Burrow to bury it

3. Override Edict says that it ends at the end of the models activation, but...

(you know where this is going now?)

4. ...the SS Miner was buried before the end of it's activation, so - just like keeping (+2) Melee Master etc - the effect doesn't end

5. Hoffman now controls the SS Miner until he leaves it in play at the end of it's activation

And with the abundance of SS Miners now, this could be quite cool for the Hoffbot

[Kadeton]

Hmm...

Override Edict says that Hoffman controls the model for this activation. Burying ends the activation. I don't see how the effect would continue.

Melee Master etc is not a good comparison, because those effects end during the Resolve Effects step, and do not end because the buried model is not in play at that time. Override Edict has a specified end time that is not the Resolve Effects step, so this should not work (in my opinion).

However, if you could argue it effectively enough at a tournament, I'm sure you could make a lot of people very angry.

[Cunning]

I agree. I don't seen an issue here.

[Twisted Metal]

The RM's have ruled that the SS miner does not take wounds from the overdrive if it buries before the end of its activation. This is because the models bury effect occurs and then triggers the end of the models activation, thus the miner is not in play to take the wounds. The same thing would apply with override edict.

I don’t see why this devious combo wouldn’t work unless the override edict activation is ruled to be in the same category as fast and reactivate. Where its one and done. The real question is how do you plan to pull this off before the SS miners goes under in the first place?

[SportsComedian]

This doesn't seem like it would work since override edict isn't an effect, it's a spell that reactivates or allows you to control a character. So when you bury, that turn is over. Burying doesn't allow you to continue your turn, it just allows you to keep effects.

Doesn't seem like an issue to me, but good luck if your friends allow you to do it. My group has kind of house ruled to stay away from the more broken aspects of bury.

And also, this allows Hoffman to control it, or companion I guess the SS miner, but without reactivate on it he can't use it twice in one turn. So it doesn't seem all that broken if it was legal. Moving both at once is hardly gamebreaking. He has a spell to activate any construct after him anyway.

But here's yet more of a reason why the bury mechanics need to be reworked next book.

Edited February 7, 2012 by SportsComedian

[Sholto]

@Sportscomedian - I think you are missing the key fact that the Soulstone Miner is an Enemy one.

[SportsComedian]

Haha, I did indeed miss that. :-)

Well that definitely would up the usefulness of this scenario. :-) Quite a bit. But I still don't think it applies since the activation is over. And also, the times when you could do this in game are next to none. That spell is very hard to cast, an enemy SS miner would have to be close to Hoffman and unburied.

But, there shouldn't be this many potentially gamebreaking scenarios. A rules czar from Wyrd needs to clean up the bury mechanics soon.

[magicpockets]

The RM's have ruled that the SS miner does not take wounds from the overdrive if it buries before the end of its activation. This is because the models bury effect occurs and then triggers the end of the models activation, thus the miner is not in play to take the wounds. The same thing would apply with override edict.

Exactly, an effect goes on the miner to let Hoffbot control it, it burys BEFORE the end of its activation, activation ends, effect isn't resolved. (and the wounds from overdrive ruling is what I meant when talking about the SS Miner getting melee master)

And for the record, I don't play Hoffman- but my regular sparring partner does

[Ratty]

It says activate target construct, you control it during this activation. Even if you did bury it, it would not be the same activation next turn.

[Baron|Roboto]

It feels wrong not having a fluffy white cat to stroke as I read this thread...

...at least until Ratty poured the cold water over it

Edited February 7, 2012 by Baron|Roboto

[Ratty]

Ratty, ruining your dreams since... well for a little while.:Rat_RedPaint:

[magicpockets]

Ok, Alex has made a ruling so fair enough - but it doesn't feel in line with the other rulings about bury. Unless there is no "effect" caused which gives Hoffman control?

[Kadeton]

Ok, Alex has made a ruling so fair enough - but it doesn't feel in line with the other rulings about bury. Unless there is no "effect" caused which gives Hoffman control?

It comes from the wording of "this activation", I'd say. The activation referenced is the one immediately following Hoffman's activation. The effect can persist, but since the Miner is no longer in the activation immediately following the one in which Hoffman cast Edict, the effect does nothing at all.

[Ratty]

Yep, What Kadeton says.

• The effect gets put on the model.
  
• You take control of the model in the next activation
  
• The model gets buried with the effect still going.
  
• It get unburied
  
• The effect thinks "oh the activation I'm connected to has finished I'm no longer needed" and disappears in a cloud of smoke.
  

:Rat_BloodyPaw:

Edited February 8, 2012 by Ratty

[Clousseau]

Yep, What Kadeton says.

• The effect gets put on the model.
  
• You take control of the model in the next activation
  
• The model gets buried with the effect still going.
  
• It get unburied
  
• The effect thinks "oh the activation I'm connected to has finished I'm no longer needed" and disappears in a cloud of smoke.
  

Wonderfully, succinctly put.

Can we get on with some sensible discussions now?

[sharpobjects]

If the model get's buried with the effect still going and the effect is not removed (or goes away) until the model is unburied, then who has the control over the miner to unbury it?

Is it the Hoffman player?

Furthermore, does the Hoffman player get to move the Miner it's 8 inches in the closing phase?

Lastly, how does bury affect the last part of Override "After this activation target cannot activate again this turn"

Your explanation at the end states that after the model is unburied "The effect thinks "oh the activation I'm connected to has finished I'm no longer needed" and disappears in a cloud of smoke".

This is occurring on a new turn since the "cannot activate again on this turn" never was resolved because the model was buried before the Miner could actually end it's activation on the previous turn. This would lead me to believe the Miner could not activate on the turn he was unburied because that is when the actual Override effect ended. According to the sequence you listed.

[magicpockets]

^^ Kind of what I meant, but Alex has made a ruling so I'm happy to support that.

[sharpobjects]

My apologies, sometimes the elevator doesnt go all the way to the top.

What he listed in order of sequence doesn't explain who controls the Miner in the closing phase for the purpose of it's 8 inch movement and who controls the model at the start activation phase of the following turn, which is when the model may be unburried.

Stating that the Miner is till under the effects of Override when burried can only mean that the Hoffman player has control of the Miner until he is unburried. The Hoffman player could just choose to never unbury the Miner for the rest of the game.

I just want to see it played correctly by whatever the marshals deem is the correct way to play it.

It would be greatly appreciated if a little more clarification was made.

Thanks.

[magicpockets]

RAW and within Ratty's explanation you'd be right, Hoffman controls the SS Miner until it realises it's got a new activation - but I'm thinking they may be about to change bury with this new FAQ so hopefully that's where we'll get this cleared up.

[sharpobjects]

Ok Magic, I appreciate the insight that there may be changes on the horrizon.

Until then and in your opinion and Ratty's as well, should Override Edict be played the following way until such time as things become more clear with a future change;

The hoffman player controls the Miner with Override Edict and burries it after which the Hoffman player has no more control of the Miner and the owner now gets to move the Miner in the closing phase and unburry it on the next turn.

[Kadeton]

My apologies, sometimes the elevator doesnt go all the way to the top.

What he listed in order of sequence doesn't explain who controls the Miner in the closing phase for the purpose of it's 8 inch movement and who controls the model at the start activation phase of the following turn, which is when the model may be unburried.

Stating that the Miner is till under the effects of Override when burried can only mean that the Hoffman player has control of the Miner until he is unburried. The Hoffman player could just choose to never unbury the Miner for the rest of the game.

I just want to see it played correctly by whatever the marshals deem is the correct way to play it.

It would be greatly appreciated if a little more clarification was made.

Thanks.

Override Edict only lasts for the model's activation. Once it's buried, the model's activation ends. The Hoffman player has no further control over the model.

The Override Edict effect persists on the model, but that doesn't mean that the Hoffman player has control over it, since that's not what Override Edict says.

As soon as the Miner is buried, control reverts to its Controller.

[Sezar]

Override Edict only lasts for the model's activation. Once it's buried, the model's activation ends. The Hoffman player has no further control over the model.

The Override Edict effect persists on the model, but that doesn't mean that the Hoffman player has control over it, since that's not what Override Edict says.

As soon as the Miner is buried, control reverts to its Controller.

+1. That's what makes the most sense to me...

[magicpockets]

Override Edict only lasts for the model's activation. Once it's buried, the model's activation ends. The Hoffman player has no further control over the model.

The Override Edict effect persists on the model, but that doesn't mean that the Hoffman player has control over it, since that's not what Override Edict says.

As soon as the Miner is buried, control reverts to its Controller.

This isn't as clear cut as you make it. If OE places an effect on the SS Miner it's activation wouldn't end until it's completed it's bury action, by which points effects don't resolve so the effect persists. I can see that when it's unburied it then "loses" the effect as it's a different activation, but the question is valid as until it activates (or at least unburies) the effect would persist. The easy way to resolve it would be to say the effect is on Hoffman and not the target, much like Conduit from a Voodoo Doll - then all this goes away

[sharpobjects]

Besides the point that Magic has highlighted with regards to "effects" persisting while burried, there is another issue.

Even if we were to disregard what we know about when "effects" resolve and come to an agreement that when the Miner end's its activation that the Hoffman player no longer has control, it would not explain how the (1) action tunneling is resolved.

The Hoffman player is the one who spent an action point to tunnel. The tunneling action is very complex and has a lot of things going on at different points of the current turn and potentially subsequent turn(s).

The Hoffman player places a 30mm tunneling marker in base contact with the Miner and then burries the Miner. During the start closing phase, move the tunneling marker up to 8 inches ignoring terrain and models. During the start activation phase, you may remove the marker and place the model in that location. When this model is placed, end this ability, it gains insignifigant until the next draw phase.

The model having its activation ended has no affect on the tunneling action as once you have activated it, there are the above listed things going on outside of its activation. The Hoffman player should be the controller who plays out the tunneling action until it is resolved. The problem with that is the Hoffman player can decide not to completely resolve the ability by choosing to never unbury the Miner.

[Kadeton]

This isn't as clear cut as you make it. If OE places an effect on the SS Miner it's activation wouldn't end until it's completed it's bury action, by which points effects don't resolve so the effect persists. I can see that when it's unburied it then "loses" the effect as it's a different activation, but the question is valid as until it activates (or at least unburies) the effect would persist. The easy way to resolve it would be to say the effect is on Hoffman and not the target, much like Conduit from a Voodoo Doll - then all this goes away

I think you're missing what the effect actually is. Here is the actual effect placed on the model (wording in [brackets] is a terminology switch from the spell, so "target Construct" becomes [this model]):

"Activate [this model] after [Hoffman's activation in which he cast Override Edict] ends, regardless of whether [this model] has activated or not this turn. [Hoffman's Controller] controls [this model] during this activation. After this activation [this model] cannot activate again this turn."

The persistence of the effect is irrelevant, because the effect itself contains very specific instructions on exactly who controls the model and when. The Hoffman player controls the model for precisely one activation, until that activation ends, regardless of how it ends, and absolutely no longer than that. The effect could persist until the end of the game, but it would never allow the Hoffman player to take any form of control over any of the model's actions at any point other than during the activation immediately after Override Edict was cast.

There are several game events that make up the Tunneling action, but the only one that the Hoffman player has any control over is the placement of the Tunneling marker. Everything else happens in the Start Closing Phase of the turn or the Start Activation Phase of the next turn, and at both of these times the Soulstone Miner's player is in control of it, and therefore gets to make decisions for it, regardless of the persistence of the Override Edict effect - because that effect specifically states that the Hoffman player does not retain control of the model past the end of its activation.

[magicpockets]

The persistence of the effect is irrelevant, because the effect itself contains very specific instructions on exactly who controls the model and when. The Hoffman player controls the model for precisely one activation, until that activation ends, regardless of how it ends, and absolutely no longer than that.

This is not correct. There are other effects which specifically state they end at the end of a model's activation but persist if you bury the model first. So if you bury the model before the end of the activation and the effect is on the SS Miner, the effect never see "the end of an activation" so doesn't resolve. If the effect isn't on Hoffman (which you agree it isn't) his role has nothing to do with it.

That said this is irrelevant because a ruling has been made.

There are several game events that make up the Tunneling action, but the only one that the Hoffman player has any control over is the placement of the Tunneling marker. Everything else happens in the Start Closing Phase of the turn or the Start Activation Phase of the next turn, and at both of these times the Soulstone Miner's player is in control of it, and therefore gets to make decisions for it, regardless of the persistence of the Override Edict effect - because that effect specifically states that the Hoffman player does not retain control of the model past the end of its activation.

Again, this is against other rulings if the effect is on the SS Miner and not Hoffman.