best/worst avatar?

[Wolfgar]

I know they aren't all out yet, so maybe it's a bit premature, but of the avatars which do you think are the best, and which do you think are the worst, and why?

[Calmdown]

Best overall: Probably Sonnia. I think she's the only auto-include Avatar.

Best improvement over his base master: Ramos

Worst: Hoffman

Really terrible: Lady J, Lilith, Kirai, Rasputina, probably some more

[Fetid Strumpet]

I love the avatar concept quite a bit, the problem with many of them is that, this game, like most games, rewards specialization.

Sonia's avatar for example takes her from being an ok spell caster to being an AMAZING spellcaster.

Kirai's avatar, and for that matter most of the book 2 master's avatars, lacks somewhat because they way the master was designed. Kirai's crew plays the way it does because of the way Kirai makes the whole crew work. The instant she goes avatar she ceases to make her crew work the way it was hired for. She goes from being a massively effective support model for her crew, who abandons that to become a model with slightly better combat stats than the regular Ikiryo, but with the ability to gain more attacks.

So you have the option of building your crew in a way that supports the avatar, which may or may not be out by turn 2 or 3, but possibly later, and who is burning turns away fulfilling the manifest requirements, or building your crew to support the regular master, who loses the support once the avatar comes out, which is way Avatars that don't shift their master too far to a different direction tend to be better preferred.

Sonia's case, ok spell caster to AMAZING spellcaster, and doesn't lose anything that is essential for how her crew works.

Nicodem, Great Avatar because he keeps the spells he really want's to keep, becomes more mobile, harder to kill, and can raise punk zombies even faster.

Ramos, Already a backline caster, he can still use the first turns to do everything Ramos was going to do before, and by turn 2 or three becomes a very fast melee beatstick once he manifests.

Zoraida, becomes a Casting Master, manipulates her deck, and still supports her crew, but in a different way, but not in a way that requires you to change how you build your crew.

Pandora, Loses the mobility that is one of the things that makes her strong, and even though there are circumstances that she is good at, regular Pandora is already good at those and doesn't cost 2 additional stones or actions to bring out.

The Dreamer, loses the synergy his crew thrives on, plus as Nix has said in his podcast, by the time you can fulfill his manifest requirement you've most likely already locked the game up, so his Avatar doesn't add anything to the crew.

Colette, loses all the things she is taken for before she manifests, and becomes much easier to kill because there are additional targets to hit which put dmg on her, and she loses slow to die.

Rasputina goes from being an AMAZING caster to being a sort of weird hybrid combo caster/beatstick. The lack of specialization really hurts this avatar, as does the fact that if you are going avatar you need to make certain you have a graverobber in play from the start.

[Wolfgar]

Colette, loses all the things she is taken for before she manifests, and becomes much easier to kill because there are additional targets to hit which put dmg on her, and she loses slow to die.

Yeah, this. I love Colette, but her avatar sucks. :'(

[magicpockets]

Hamelin has an awesome avatar when you consider the impact of the Blight Counter spreading, Kill All Rats and his Tyrant's Justice action. My feeling is he'll need toning down before he's released - otherwise it will be "Hamelin is OP" on a whole new level

[dsmiles]

I have to disagree on aJustice. I think she's fantastic. When you switch playstyles in the middle of a game, it makes your opponent rethink how he/she has to play in order to accomplish their strategy and schemes. She's definitely not the worst.

As of right now, I'm only running three avatars, aSonnia, aJustice, and aRamos. I haven't picked up the avatars for my other masters yet. So far, though aSonnia is the only one that's always in my crew.

[Beaker]

Weren't folks saying that Leveticus is fairly sub-par as an avatar?

[Foton]

Yeah, this. I love Colette, but her avatar sucks. :'(

I disagree here. She has the nasty ability to force you to lose your hand then flip like crap. If you can empty your opponent's hand, they're forced to play your game. And by the time this happens she probably has a stupid amount of Soul stones.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Yes she can do that, but here's why I don't feel she's good, you have to burn activations to manifest, you have to pay 2 SS. Add to that once you have manifested I'm in a better position to win the game. I can't think of a crew I play that wouldn't be relieved that your movement shenanigans are now much reduced, and that you can no longer Mannequin Replacement, and you can't summon Doves any longer. Plus once you manifest I actually have a chance to kill you. You now have 3 possible targets to hit, which means more models may actually take swings at you. I even hope to find a decoy, because once I know a Decoy I'm going to direct my attacks at it because it can't use SS, it has no defensive triggers, and has a lower Def. So sure, while I might not get McMorning's 10 dmg from Dissection, or Seamus' 7 dmg from his flintlock, I'm definitely going to plink her to death very rapidly. You also lost Slow to Die, and Blinding Flash.

I think what clinches it for me is that if Avatar Colette was the default master, and her regular version was the Avatar, I'd definitely be paying 2 SS to be able to turn into her regular version.

Edited February 4, 2012 by Fetid Strumpet

[dsmiles]

Weren't folks saying that Leveticus is fairly sub-par as an avatar?

Eh. He's only sub-par if you don't plan your list for him. You take three riders and summon the fourth after you manifest. He has really good synergy with the riders, and his SPA shenanigans never really go away.

[Foton]

Yes she can do that, but here's why I don't feel she's good, you have to burn activations to manifest, you have to pay 2 SS. Add to that once you have manifested I'm in a better position to win the game. I can't think of a crew I play that wouldn't be relieved that your movement shenanigans are now much reduced, and that you can no longer Mannequin Replacement, and you can't summon Doves any longer. Plus once you manifest I actually have a chance to kill you. You now have 3 possible targets to hit, which means more models may actually take swings at you. I even hope to find a decoy, because once I know a Decoy I'm going to direct my attacks at it because it can't use SS, it has no defensive triggers, and has a lower Def. So sure, while I might not get McMorning's 10 dmg from Dissection, or Seamus' 7 dmg from his flintlock, I'm definitely going to plink her to death very rapidly. You also lost Slow to Die, and Blinding Flash.

I think what clinches it for me is that if Avatar Colette was the default master, and her regular version was the Avatar, I'd definitely be paying 2 SS to be able to turn into her regular version.

I don't think she's auto include. But I don't think she's terrible. I've seen lists built around her. where she swaps then drops cards for soulstones, reactivates swaps and drops. Never leaving the starting zone. Then going avatar. The showgirls and cassandra do all of the damage out put and objective gathering. I agree that losing slow to die and blinding flash are a big deal, but something most of the avatars seem to do is make you play the master in a new way and the avatars seem to have an entirely different playstyle. Presenting you with a new challenge.

[Sybaris]

I think that including an avatar in the crew list should change how one design it in the first place.

Say, if you go Avatar Lilith, you shouldn't take a growth list or that much black blooded folks, but rather aim for waldegeist forest shenanigans...that kind of thing.

Sonnia is seen as the best because she works with the already working crew. For others you need more creativity i guess. Problem arrise when people see a master with a pre-defined crew. Avatar mode isn't exactly an upgrade.

[Math Mathonwy]

I don't think she's auto include. But I don't think she's terrible. I've seen lists built around her. where she swaps then drops cards for soulstones, reactivates swaps and drops. Never leaving the starting zone. Then going avatar. The showgirls and cassandra do all of the damage out put and objective gathering. I agree that losing slow to die and blinding flash are a big deal, but something most of the avatars seem to do is make you play the master in a new way and the avatars seem to have an entirely different playstyle. Presenting you with a new challenge.

That doesn't sound like it's better than the normal form Collette. You're saying that the Avatar is playable in that she doesn't make you autolose while Strumpet is saying that turning avatar makes the showgirls crew actively worse. In other words, your reply doesn't really address Strumpet's point.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Exactly. Avatar Colette is not unplayable, although by that metric, nothing in the game is unplayable, even the Malifaux Child.

What I'm saying is that while Avatar Colette is fun, nd has some neat rules, she doesn't add anything competitive to your crew at all. A showgirls crew, like pretty much all the book 2 masters, is built primarily on the crew synergy between the Master and their intended minions. For pretty much all the Book 2 Masters you lose all that synergy once you manifest.

The way I look at it to determine the first stage in whether or not to hire an Avatar is to look at the situation in reverse. If the Avatar was the standard version, and the regular master what I had to manifest into, would I be willing to pay 2 SS and spend actions of some sort to get that version into play. If the answer is yes, I really have to think hard before including that avatar. Colette's avatar falls into that category.

[JisaacT]

I think that including an avatar in the crew list should change how one design it in the first place.

Say, if you go Avatar Lilith, you shouldn't take a growth list or that much black blooded folks, but rather aim for waldegeist forest shenanigans...that kind of thing.

Sonnia is seen as the best because she works with the already working crew. For others you need more creativity i guess. Problem arrise when people see a master with a pre-defined crew. Avatar mode isn't exactly an upgrade.

I think you are right man. Thats who I feel about it. If you are going to take an avatar build your crew around it. I know when I take aSeamus I bring all the WP duels that I can so he can keep gaining wds back. Otherwise I might take different things.

Same with Lilith when she comes out. I really want to get her avatar form because then she can bring up more forests! Just like Sybaris said I wouldn't go for a grow list with that crew but more forests and blood token generation.

I think if you make a list to go with the avatar thats when they become the most effective, when you plan on bringing them. aRamos for example. I dont really like Ramos but if I were to get him I would deff. get aRamos and strictly build the crew around that. Same with Levi.

[KoreyMalifaux]

I have proxied avatar Lilith, only to find out her regular master form is much better. It's not to say avatar Lilith is horrible, but useful is so many more ways when not manifest.

[Foton]

That doesn't sound like it's better than the normal form Collette. You're saying that the Avatar is playable in that she doesn't make you autolose while Strumpet is saying that turning avatar makes the showgirls crew actively worse. In other words, your reply doesn't really address Strumpet's point.

My point wasn't that she's not the worst and she's not terrible. In fact I wasn't even disagreeing with him on the point that Collette as a master is better than her avatar. I wasn't trying to argue I was just trying to discuss.

[harbinger]

Avatar mode isn't exactly an upgrade.

I think that is part of the issue. Many people (whether mean to or not and maybe dont even realize it) expect when you manifest it adds to the power of the master.. turning them into a souped up version.

That being said, as to the worst... it has to be Raspy. Her avatar version just does not fit her at all. That and it is easy for you opponent to deny you the ability to manifest. I would have to look them all over again, but I dont remember another case with an avatar that you could directly be denied the manifestation. I am a huge Raspy player/collector and I wont ever buy the model for those reasons.

When you have someone that is dedicated to a master and they refuse to acknowledge the avatars existence, there is something wrong

[Math Mathonwy]

My point wasn't that she's not the worst and she's not terrible. In fact I wasn't even disagreeing with him on the point that Collette as a master is better than her avatar. I wasn't trying to argue I was just trying to discuss.

But avatars don't exist in a vacuum - they are inherently tied to the masters that they manifest from. If the avatar form is actively a lot worse than the master form, then paying for the privilege of making your master worse is IMO pretty terrible.

In Collette's case, since she is such a synergistic master and important to her whole crew, manifesting makes the whole crew worse. Paying for that makes her avatar terrible.

[magicpockets]

In Collette's case, since she is such a synergistic master and important to her whole crew, manifesting makes the whole crew worse. Paying for that makes her avatar terrible.

+1

[M_Ruckuss]

I play tested a fair few of the avatars, have played with Ramos and Zoraida and played against Kirai, Mcmourning, Sonia and Nicodem.

Sonia becomes a fantastic caster but can still be tackled. Nicodem is the biggest pain in the arse model to kill I have encountered in Malifaux. Kirai and Mcmourning can be quite good, but I find are very situational.

I am still learning the ropes with Ramos, and have probably started to use aRamos too soon if I am honest. However, he is great fun and I really like the way he is designed, and would agree that while he may not be the most powerful of the avatars,he is probably the most useful/offers the biggest improvement over the original master.

aZoraida is amazing. I have manifested her and not bothered to resummon the voodoo dol, which is a massive mistake. The ++ on casting and damage on pins and needles is simply hilarious, especially when you get to draw 10 cards if you hit 2 severes with the trigger! Her obey is also very good, and her draw cards/heal is great, as is the improved version of bayou 2 card. All in all she is my favourite of all the avatars, not because she is the most powerful but because as 'the avatar of fate' I just feel she is beautifully designed.

[bringer of death]

I will be getting somers avatar and try him outAnd Ramos is a great avatar

[CannonFodder]

aCollette: I find she loses what make her her. I admit I like the shell game tactic, but I don't feel its worth the what she loses.

aRaspy: I feel her avatar is there as a plan B. When facing Raspy normally you want to engage her as fast as possible. but when you see aRaspy sitting on the side of the table you think twice about it. Basically you are paying 2 SS to have a plan B in case you really need it. But you don't race to manifest.

aRamos: is a plan, where you race to manifest. and you build the crew around him manifest.

aSeamus: another race to manifest. and having him in play forces you opponent to try and kill as many models as possible before they gain Terror.

I've said in another thread some avatar force your opponent to race the clock to reduce the effects of the avatar. Others are a Plan B incase you need to change tactics half way threw the game (Raspy & Kirai). Some are just for the fun of trying somethign new (Levi, colette)

[Foton]

In Collette's case, since she is such a synergistic master and important to her whole crew, manifesting makes the whole crew worse. Paying for that makes her avatar terrible.

I'm aware of that. And you make a strong point. I just disagree that she's completely terrible. Why do you need to argue with the fact that I think she has uses, however limited, that can still be game changing. You don't agree with that, cool. I respect that. And regarding vacuums, she wasn't designed in a Vacuum either, they are most definitely designing her with future mechanics in mind.

[harbinger]

aRaspy: I feel her avatar is there as a plan B. When facing Raspy normally you want to engage her as fast as possible. but when you see aRaspy sitting on the side of the table you think twice about it. Basically you are paying 2 SS to have a plan B in case you really need it. But you don't race to manifest.

Seeing the avatar card sitting there would not change my tactic at all. I would just make sure none of my models was close enough to each other for her to pulls blasts off (like would do anyway when facing her) and there is no way she can manifest. Once again, I cant think of another avatar that it is so easy to deny the player.