Malifaux and Mordheim

[VaeVictus]

Hello,

I realize most of you probably know what Mordheim is (was) but maybe there are some folks here who don't.

When I recently discovered Malifaux my first reaction was - "Wow! This is just like Mordheim!". And not in the bad sense mind you. I was excited about how much of the original "feel" of Mordheim I found in Malifaux. So if I'm comparing Malifaux to Mordheim my general attitude is like if it's a tribute and not... plagiarism.

Mordheim never was a really good game for me because the rules themselves were clumsy - the biggest reason for that being that they have been derived from the original Warhammer: Fantasy ruleset and were never actually intended for a skirmish.

But the setting was... fascinating. Mystery, horror, wickedness, grotesque and some twisted dark humor. Oppressive dark mood as if something malign and otherworldly evil is watching you the whole time. Like a medieval Gotham city. Malifaux is much like that - same dark streets, gangs fighting for control over areas of the city, horrors lurking everywhere. Exploration of the old city ruins and their secrets being a central part of the experience. Players assembling crews that eventually will cross each other's path (especially if Malifaux had a campaign setting). The fight for soulstones - warpstones in Mordheim, an alien crystal with great magical properties, alternative energy source and other yet undiscovered abilities. Even the aesthetics are close with those macabre, grotesque character. Mordhiem is more extreme in its "despair" feel while the city of Malifaux still pretends there's some "civilization" and law present going on.

I wondered myself if the resemblance between Mordheim and Malifaux is coincidental... I for one wouldn't mind at all if it wasn't. And if it was... well, I think one could find great inspiration in Mordheim when making things for Malifaux.

For those of you who might not know what I'm talking all about:

Mordheim Introduction

So, did any one else felt those two games so similar in "mood" as I did? ;}

Edited January 26, 2012 by VaeVictus

[Wolfgar]

I think when you have little niche hobbies like this, they tend to sort of feed on and influence each other. You have a relatively small community so certain ideas keep coming up. Also, some ideas just work, so they tend to show up a lot in games.

I never played Mordheim but I wouldn't be surprised if it was very similar to Malifaux.

[Soundwave]

In my opinion, Malifaux is what Mordheim should have been. In reality, Mordheim was just the Warhammer ruleset clumsily ported to some sort of single model context, like you said. But ruleset aside, it was thematically very lovely, and I did love the setting.

[Math Mathonwy]

Mordheim saddens me on many levels. The biggest of them is that it is often the first (and only) skirmish level game people play and as far as rules go, it sucks utterly. It's by far the worst minis ruleset I know and I've played a lot of them. Second is the fact that the setting is indeed nice and the game could've been really, really nice had the rules been even somewhat OK. Third, the campaign system is very nice and it goes to waste since the rules are so horrid.

You may see a pattern there.

As for Mordheim influencing Malifaux, I see a lot more Confrontation influences in the rules and even in setting when it comes to Cadwallon.

[nilus]

Wow no love for Mordheim.

I'll admit the rules have issues but I didn't think it was that bad. I always really enjoyed playing it and Necromunda.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Seconded for Necromunda. Escher gangers all the way!

[Mike3838]

Necromunda worked because it was a development if 2nd Ed. 40k, a rules-set which was ridiculously over-complicated for massed armies (every model in combat resolved individually!) but worked perfectly for skirmish level.

Mordheim tried to do the same thing, but the Fantasy rules it adapted from were about right for large scale games but crap in skirmish.

Mike

[VaeVictus]

I agree a 100% on the rules issue. I was talking more "lore", "mood" and "setting" though. And the whole concept of an isolated city, full of mystery and secrets where only a few bold (or desperate) adventurers seek to venture.

[Mirarii]

Well I kinda see it like the "WoW clone" debate in MMOs. Similarities are to be expected, and high fantasy doesn't really work as well as gritty, dark, evil stuff. The small scale faction conflict brought to the table by Malifaux and Mordheim work perfect fluff wise/game wise for skirmish level. High fantasy armies of elves and orcs charging each other works great for a large scale game. It wouldn't make sense for the KINGDOM of elves and the orc WARBAND to be in the same little semi neutral city unless they were both trying to seize it at the same time. Mordheim did have a great setting too, so it makes sense for some ideas to carry over.

[Sybaris]

Well, the big problem with mordheim is that they tried to import WHFB rules into a skirmish system. The thing was clunky at best, since those rules are simplified for "blocks of infantry" to resolve combat quickly. It made things boring at times.

The mood, however, is very interesting, and there's definitely something reminiscent of Mordheim in Malifaux's setting (as an added coincidence both games's name are the doomed city in which it plays...just like Necromunda or Gorka Morka). Both Mordheim and Malifaux are great catalysts for model conversions and painting, although i would say that GW's models just can't stand to be compared to Wyrd's nowadays.

With Necromunda, they imported the 2nd edition rules of 40k into skirmish, and that worked seriously well. There were a bit of discrepencies with weapon costs and the effectiveness of assault over shooting, but that doesn't remove the fun of the game. I disagree with the over-complicated rules; once learned it went very fast (and i played orks in 40k 2nd, so i know about masses of close combats with that system).

[diehard]

I love Necromunda, my second favorite game after Dark Future (have yet to really play Malifaux enough but I like it a lot so far, still need more experience with it to rate it though. But the setting is undeniably awesome.) Never went for Mordheim, loved the idea but figured GW would abandon it just like they did Necromunda. And I was right.

[Sybaris]

That a company abandons a game doesn't mean it can't be good: the best example of that is Bloodbowl.

In fact the best systems that GW produced are those they abandonned.

[Dustcrusher]

Necromunda will always be one of my favorites. There were only a few issues with rules, in my experience. Close combat was brutal, but it was balanced by overwatch, heavy weapons, and cover.

Ah Mordheim...my first real game I lost both my Necromancer and my Vampire so my entire warband crumbled to dust. The Skaven player in that 4-way game had destroyed my band, a Merc band, and a Lesser Daemon in a total of 4 turns.

I felt like the Skaven had a tremendous advantage without a long campaign to balance things out- one of the few instances I've ever felt like flipping the damn table.

No matter how bad I got trounced in Necromunda I always felt like my losses were my fault or, at worst, a couple of dice rolls at a critical moment. In Mordheim I felt like the game was stacked against me and that we would've been better off just rolling some dice and telling the Skaven player he won.

Coreheim interests me, however- apparently they went through and fixed a lot of the bad rules and balance issues.

[Shank Seamus!]

That a company abandons a game doesn't mean it can't be good: the best example of that is Bloodbowl.

In fact the best systems that GW produced are those they abandonned.

..and that's why I gave up on GW,

I really enjoyed playing mordheim, sometimes I wonder what malifaux could be like with campaign experience type set up, minions getting better until they eventually meet a gruesome death..

But looking back, the rules were.. naff..

[VaeVictus]

like the "WoW clone" debate in MMOs

@Mirarii - you are correct but I didn't intend a "who borrowed from who" debate, I was just happy to see the 2 games sharing a similar setting.

The mood, however, is very interesting, and there's definitely something reminiscent of Mordheim in Malifaux's setting (as an added coincidence both games's name are the doomed city in which it plays...

@Sybaris - Yeah, that's what I meant.

I think a lot could be borrowed from the now-dead Mordheim in terms of inspiration for models, scenarios, campaign rules, etc. But that's that.

[Adanedhel]

Vae Victus, I'm going to take it you know Hell Dorado, so I find it funny you do not pick up the fact that they have almost litterally the same basic idea, portal to hell opens, the largest $$$holes invade the not quite that bas guys, and there the demons are in defense of their territory

[VaeVictus]

@Adanedhel - Noah, never heard of it prior to this thread ^^ And I will check it out. Thanks for bringing that up.

But I know what your nick means - it's "Elf-man", one of the sobriquets given to Turin. Impressed? (:

[Adanedhel]

I am, you are the first one to ever guess it

I took it at a LotR forum from my first wargame, where Turin en Turamarth where already taken, so I took Adanedhel, and it kinda stuck, and since I since then went full on on the elvish kind of characters, I'm pretty happy with it

(epic elves in one word: FAMILICIDE, that and no less will be the price of hurting an elfs family)

Vae Victus is a concept in Hell Dorado to boost your die rolls, tied to your officer, together with Vae Soli (which is a kind of companionlike system).

It actually is a very good skirmish game, very balanced, and die rolls are kept to an absolute minimum, making it very tactical, combined with premeasuring

[Dustcrusher]

Vae Victus is a concept in Hell Dorado to boost your die rolls, tied to your officer, together with Vae Soli (which is a kind of companionlike system).

Am I the only one then that thought Vae Victus was a reference to the original Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain? It was one of Kain's battle cries.

The only Specialist Game that doesn't seem to have much of a following is The Battle of Five Armies.

[VaeVictus]

Am I the only one then that thought Vae Victus was a reference to the original Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain? It was one of Kain's battle cries.

- Adanedhel and me were just discussing that over private messages ((:

Vae Victis originally comes from a Romans/Gauls encounter. In the Legacy of Kain series the authors admit to have spelled it wrong - Vae VictUs. Still, I use that "misspelled" version as a tribute to those mighty-good games. Btw a Battlecruiser in the WH40k universe was also named "Vae Victus" with "u" in courtesy of LoK !

Edited January 27, 2012 by VaeVictus

[Marcalla]

Having played Mordhiem, and the rest one issue that I had that I haven't seen discussed here yet was the poor implementation of the campaign games. It really is the plague of the "gang games" as we call them around here. And that is that at some point in the campaign one gang or several gangs get too far ahead of the other gangs to continue in good faith. That and it never failed that you would get a guy an upgrade only to have him loose a leg or take a chest wound.

That aside Mordhiem was a fabulous setting.

[url=http://www.wyrd-games.net/forum/member.php?u=1238]

[VaeVictus]

And that is that at some point in the campaign one gang or several gangs get too fare ahead of the other gangs to continue in good faith.

- Good point. Can you (or anyone in the audience) please list some games that in your opinion fair better on this front? Maybe you can quote some particular mechanic (or system) that allows gangs which are falling-off to catch up with the leading one. Edited January 27, 2012 by VaeVictus