Q'iq'el Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 There is a rule that prevents models from using/targetting Counters in possession of other models (very good for Rezzers, as it allows them to protect Counters from destruction), but I don't think this rule applies here. I'm not familiar with the Levi's issue, but I'd be very surprised at the "not in play" argument and require the exact quote. The reason why I think the rule does not apply here is that Rafkin isn't using these Counters in any way at all. Preserve Bodies kicks in when someone else is using (discarding or sacrificing) counters and is very clearly worded to that effect. There's no need to target the counters - the act of using them must happen within 6" from Rafkin. It's all good and it gives his ability some synergy with all the undead-summoning Rezzers (not only the Masters, but also Molly, Mortimer and such). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twisted Metal Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 I asked the question about the corpse counter on page two and Ratty answered it about half way down on page three. In order for a master to target the counter it has to be in LOS and on the table. http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?27449-Picking-Up-Corpse-Counters/page3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q'iq'el Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 Heh, Counters carried by models used to be on the table as well, in Book 1 (in base contact with model that carries them). I'm not sure if that rule exists anymore. Either way it doesn't apply here, because Rafkin neither uses nor targets these Counters. His ability merely triggers when someone sacrifices of discards counters within 6" from him (which doesn't require targeting the Counters either). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchethead Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 Total agreement with Q. I assume Preserve Bodies kicks in when Nico summons, for instance. If it doesn't ... well ... I pretty much give up, to be honest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 I like Calmdown's list, even though money wise I could never ever afford all the Mindless Zombies or Canine Remains this list would require. I do like the use for Rafkin gaining BP a great deal. 6 Dogs Killed through some mass effect, Zombie/Sebastian/Rafkin Poison. 1 Dog picks up all the Corpse counters and Discards them to give them to Nicodem. (+6 BP for Rafkin) Nicodem uses arise to make 6 mindless Zombies. (+6 BP for Rafkin) Nicodem Summons a Rogue Necromancy. (+4 BP for Rafkin) Next Turn Rafkin dumps out 6 Mindless Zombies for Nicodem, possibly saving a few BP for Fast. Nicodem continues to Summon, ouch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchethead Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 1 Dog picks up all the Corpse counters and Discards them to give them to Nicodem. (+6 BP for Rafkin) This is the only part of the plan that stinks of cheese, to me. It's absolutely legal, but I wouldn't be surprised to see errata indicating that a corpse counter needs to be "removed from the game" or something similar in order to trigger Preserve Bodies. But until then ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 I personally think it was absolutely intended, because it is only on the V2 Canine Remains card that the word "discard" appears. My Book1 doesn't have the word on the ability that lets the dogs give their CC to the Master. And the ability to give Rafkin all the BP is hardly cheese in my opinion because: A) these abilities are action intensive. don't give Nicodem any additional speed. C) even with this ability it hardly puts Nicodem, which to be fair is really the only Resser master who can effectively use the resources Rafkin Provides, in the top tier of Masters, but it does make him vastly more competitive, and actually makes it possible for at least one Resser to actually reliably achieve any of the Resser specific Schemes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenborne Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 There was a similar discussion on using Sebastian with Nico to gain a strong defense against the Dreamer in this thread... http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?23689-Nicodem-vs-Dreamer-Undertaker-s-Quest&p=291099&viewfull=1#post291099 Looks like its only going to get stronger with Rafkin. Can't wait! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRC Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 While people are discussing when Rafkin gets parts: Would he get them when McMourning chops up a corpse for BPs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted February 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 While people are discussing when Rafkin gets parts: Would he get them when McMourning chops up a corpse for BPs? No, since it is not "discarding or sacrificing" I cant see any other discussion about Rafkin getting parts though in this thread Do you think some part of this doesnt work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 I think it works and is brilliant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenborne Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 It's top notch cheese. I wonder if it really was intended or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 It's top notch cheese. Really? Given all the acrimony that has surfaced in the past over whether or not NB, or anyone really, is OP, the fact that a model got released which restores Nicodem to playable status is regarded as cheese? Don't forget that Nicodem was designed when Graverobbers could all take an all action to get a counter, which unfortunately lead to the 10 Canine Remains digging up a counter every turn, the rules were changed, and at the time rightly so, although I wonder in an environment that currently contains The Dreamer, Hamelin's Crew, Colette, and Kirai if that is really game breaking any longer. Calmdown's list here is going to be massively hard to shift, and will be great for objective taking and denying (if being engaged prevents interaction) objectives, and it will actually have a chance to use Resser based schemes, which currently no one in the Resser line up can use reliably. I guess I just don't see this as cheese and more a, "Hey look, Nicodem can go back to how we designed him without breaking the game by having 10 CC available every single turn." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenborne Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 It's all relative. Non-Kirai Rezzers don't get much cheese. Let me live in my deluded fantasy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toonook Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 Wholeheartedly agree Fetid, a good way to rebalance after every faction gained access to enough non-corpse counter models to really stymie the ressurectionists from being able to ressurect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 Now if they would just release some models to put Seamus up in the competitive, if not top tier masters lists, and all will be golden. I really wish I could get a Seamus/Molly list working competitively, but it always seems to break down at some point. Ahh well. If any Master Resser players are ever in the Champaign area, dinner is on me for Seamus tips. =D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchethead Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 (edited) C) even with this ability it hardly puts Nicodem, which to be fair is really the only Resser master who can effectively use the resources Rafkin Provides, in the top tier of Masters, but it does make him vastly more competitive, and actually makes it possible for at least one Resser to actually reliably achieve any of the Resser specific Schemes. I admit, the statement was made in a vacuum. It rings like a RAW versus RAI debate just waiting to happen. That said, Rafkin definitely helps with Nico's standing in the dread tier system. I'm not a fan of HAVING to include models in order to fix a perceived imbalance (see: Snowstorm), but I takes what I can gets. So many shenanigans and aNico dropping in April. Good times, good times. All we need now is more dog and zombie sculpts. Edited February 15, 2012 by Hatchethead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePandaDirector Posted February 15, 2012 Report Share Posted February 15, 2012 (edited) Like Calmdown's list (and this thread in general), can just imagine the list by removing a Canine and having aNicodem, perhaps summon more zombies rather than Flesh Construct and have a true horde. As for models, you can always use Rezzer models you aren't using, such as Belles, Crooked Men, Drowned, etc. If there's no other models to confuse them with, should be fine and legal to proxy. Oh and another good idea, if you summon a zombie from a counter left by an enemy you killed, use Puppet War models like Belle and Autopsy to demoralize your opponent =] Edited February 15, 2012 by ThePandaDirector Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravenborne Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 Ive been using extra models for my zombies, painting them up grey and dull. My first one was Von Schill Zombie. Its fun to pull out the Zombie version of whoever the opponent is playing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centa Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 If u want to abuse Rafkins ability to produce Body Parts, i suggest to use McMourning. Its possible to summon up to 36MZ or 16 Guild Autopsies at turn 2. What do you need? McMourning - 8SS Zombie Chihuahua Nurse Rafkin 10x Dogs Turn 1 - Dog 1 goes def stance and close to dog 2-9 - Rafkin activates his aura, shot at Dog1 and place the poison AOE on Dog 2-9, hit on Dog 10 (+1 BP) - Dog 2-9 activate and die on poison - Dog 10 activate kills Dog1 if he survive Rafkins shot (cant remember the dmg code of his weapon), collect all 9 CC and send em to McM (+9 BP) - Chihuahua (its getting cheesy now!) use Fetch 2 times on McM. I cant find anything that would forbid it. McM drops 2x 9CC and get em back (+18 BP) - McM summon a Rogue Necromancy (+3 BP), and kills it with 3 hits (2 BP for McM, he has to spend one to get fast), do not take up the CC. Summary after Turn 1: 9 CC from Dogs, -4 for summoning the RN, +3 for killing the RN = 8 CC (5 of them on McM, 3 on the ground) 2 BP on McM for hitting the RN 32 BP on Rafkin Turn 2 - Nurse reactivate on Rafkin + Chihuahua - Rafkin activate aura, 2 hits against the nurse (+2 BP) - Dog10 collect the 3 CC from the dead RN and send em to McM (+3 BP) - Chihuahua (some more cheese) 4x fetch on McM (dropping 4x 8 CC) (+32 BP) - McM summon RN (+ 3 BP), Kills Chihuahua (+4 BP on McM) - Rafkin summons 36 MZ or 18 Guild Autopsies or any combination of them Whats left? McMourning Nurse (hurt) 1x Dog RN with slow 4 CC + 6 BP on McM Tons of Guild Autopsies I am not sure if Rafkin gains a BP when McM summons a model, coz he doesnt discard CC. If not that would reduce the amount of BP on Rafkin by two, and his own by 2. But he would have +1 CC. (-6 BP on Rafkin because he dont get them from summoning, but +4 BP because McM would have one more CC when the Chihuahua use fetch 4 times on him) I would suggest to summon Guild Autopsies because McM cant do much with MZ, and he has allrdaý enough CC/BP for the remainder of the game. GA might seem a lil bit weak, but if u have 18 of them they will do a lot of dmg If u wanna do it with Nico i suggest to drop the Necrotic Machine and get his Avatar. When u make a similar list like this one with Nico its possible to have up to 25 MZ in Turn two, should be lots of fun with Nicos Avatar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted February 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 On Rafkin: Rafkin is far, far, far from an auto-include. There are only a few situations in which I would take a list including him and drop the bomb I described earlier, these situations generally being ones where you want your master to be unkillable (Shared Slaughter or Contain Power), ones where you want to or think you will need to summon multiple beasties to throw at your enemy (like multiple Rogue Necromancies), or when you take Nicodem's zombie spam scheme (which I think is sort of viable with this list). In most situations, and certainly in all all-comers list, I wouldn't take Rafkin at all (at least right now, unless I prove myself wrong with more playtesting) as the slaughter your own mdoels / summon zombies thing is a very slow opening. On aNicodem: I'm very cautious about aNicodem, it seems that he's getting a lot of good press and I think he's very much in danger of being overrated. Lets take a look at the differences: Pros Awesome model (ok, not really a pro but DAMN the model is good) Borne by the Dead - OK, he gets faster. However, think about it. They need to be in B2B, which is hard to do and certainly hard to do turn after turn. Think of it more like a movement boost on occasion, but remember it needs to be preplanned and as such has limited value. Restless Dead - Automatic corpse counter > Zombie, good for mirror matches Terrifying - Meh ability Mass Grave - A good ability certainly, but unpredictable and can't be used with his other (0). Enhance the Dead - Kind of good. Punk Zombies rock, Punk Zombies that dont need to walk to engage their enemy rock harder. However, can't be used on the same turn as Mass Grave, the main ability that will power it. Big anti-synergy. Heed my Wishes - A pretty crappy spell. Makes your crappy Mindless Zombies a bit less crap. Cons Loses totem - a big deal since Grave spirit is so awesome. No Bolster Undead - one of Nicodem's best abilities and you're losing it! Loses Reanimator - Again, one of the main reasons to run Nicodem. The card draw is amazing and summoning big nasties is amazing. Overall Nicodem is very anti-synergistic, and this worries me. Dragged Down and Borne by the Dead want you to have multiple zombies in B2B with you, but Enhance the Dead wants you to push them forward and turn them into Punk Zombies. In addition, when you do make a Borne by the Dead move, you're probably moving farther than your Zombies can move so you're unlikely to have any in range for next time. aNicodem generates Zombies from nowhere; this is great. But he *needs* to use them himself to power the aforementioned two abilities, so when you turn them into PZs you're eating not only your Zombies but also eating into your own movement and defences. Combine this with the fact that you can't Mass Grave and Enhance in the same turn, so by the time Nicodem manifests, the PZs you summon may only get one or two effective turns (and they'll be slow in one of them). I think aNicodem was almost a goal for Wyrd, but not quite. His two zombie abilities needed to be range 6" and not range B2B. He needed to make Zombies significant. He needed a way to generate zombies without needing to lose his summoning abilities for the turn. Or similar. As with many Avatars, summoning Nicodem drastically changes his playstyle and I'm not convinced it's for the better. At best it's a shift in what he does, rather than an improvement, but I think potentially he's actually worse when in avatar form. Would you pay 2SS (and on a model that already has a low cache and needs lots of points invested in it to boot) for a model that isnt really a power boost? I'm not sure I would. ---------- Post added at 05:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:54 AM ---------- Stuff The problem with that is, it's not a game winning strategy. You take your entire list built around summoning as many Autopsies as possible, and then dump them out. They're still autopsies and hence still incredibly slow and low damage, and they still struggle to complete many objectives. You still take two turns to do this during which your opponents are completing objectives. You need to be careful in Malifaux of getting too caught up in tricks and forgetting that you need to win the game. A more balanced approach to doing this is much better in general. The main use for that is in a brawl with aNico and McMourning though. Dumping 30 MZs and using aNico would be some fun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centa Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 Thats true. The lists i posted are more for fun games. But i dont think they are as slow as u think they are. Drope some CN for 2 Night Terrors to get to one objectiv turn one. and summon the GA next to another objective. In addition u have the nurse to increase the wk of one GA by 2 and give him reactivate. Then he will be pretty fast at the objective (of course this only works for some special objectives like destroy the evidence) U still will need some more time to get to ur objectives but a game doesnt end after 3 turns. But i agree, i wouldnt try this list in a tournament. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omnivision6 Posted February 16, 2012 Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 Not every tournament is a blood thirsty competition. I'm sure it would be a blast to run that list in a tournament. Hell, it might even surprise you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted February 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 Game tonight, McMourning vs Von Schill. Although I'm going to be horribly punished by probably the worst matchup for Rezzers (since most Outcast combat models are basically Rezzer models but better), I'm considering live streaming it for a laugh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted February 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2012 Pics of tonight's game: http://t.co/sh40Obi9 http://t.co/hV0bgAVZ http://t.co/MTNTBcOw http://t.co/coGNIdFr (My Jack Daw is a proxy Von Schill) Shared Reconnoitre, McMourning Steal Relic/Kill Protegee , Von Schill Assassinate/Bodyguard 30ss Lists: McMourning (7ss) Zombie Chihuahua Von Schill Grave Spirit Bete Noire 4x Canine Remains Von Schill (4ss) Student of Conflict Freikorps Librarian Freikorps Specialist 3x Ten Thunders Brother McMourning wins 8-0 after Von Schill concedes turn 4, when McMourning activates first and kills Von Schill. McMourning is literally bathing in corpse counters like Scrooge McDuck in money. Full report to follow tomorrow. Obligatory Neverata playing with my stuff pic: http://t.co/Cfudq3sW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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