Second and Third book thoughts

[011121]

Of course book 2 added 5 new masters, all the rules for henchmen and special forces, and all the rules for the scenario system. I think that's all together considerably more work than the avatars. The avatars may have been harder to balance but probably not by much when you consider all the effort to make the special forces the right balance of powerful and exclusive.

I'm not overly bothered by the amount of stuff in the third book but it does seem to be significantly less than 2 to my eyes.

[Omenbringer]

I'd imagine just getting the Avatars right was a lot of work.

You have know idea how much work it was to get to the final product.

Of course book 2 added 5 new masters, all the rules for henchmen and special forces, and all the rules for the scenario system. I think that's all together considerably more work than the avatars. The avatars may have been harder to balance but probably not by much when you consider all the effort to make the special forces the right balance of powerful and exclusive.

Of course book 2 also has the majority of so-called "broken" models now doesn't it?

It was a ton of work (in a fairly short time) but so where the Avatars (especially to make them all relatively balanced, fluffy, and of course different than the originals and not auto includes which was the most important part of the endevour).

I think the Wyrd crew learned a lot from the Book 2 play tests that was applied to the Book 3 play test (the two were very different experiences). I am definately looking forward to the next round of play tests and am hoping I will be invited back (even though it is a huge amount of work).

[diehard]

I can see the wanting new goodies for your crew but I like the approach book 3 took with regard to Minions, pretty much at least one addition to each of the existing crews (a couple of which can fit into more than only one) and a model that will work for all the crews in a faction (the effigies in this case.) It was also a nice touch that most of the new crew additions help to buff up existing options already in the crew.

I think this is a good approach, can be done decently on a yearly basis so it gives us new stuff each year to look forward to without quickly bloating the game and blurring the distinctions between the crews. Maybe introduce a new Master or even better new Henchmen every now and then, but don't force it to one for each crew but more so things that will create more options for the existing crews.

That along with the alternate sculpts of the existing masters and variant sculpts for Minions that are fielded with more than three in a crew (which I love btw and am surprised more companies don't do this) will yield a nice model release schedule over the year. Just my observations on the subject for whatever they're worth.

[Kadeton]

Exactly, you can't expect wyrd to pack the same amount of minions as in book 2 and all the Avatars in one single book.

If we assume that getting the Avatars right (plus a few extra minions) was the same amount of work as doing all the stuff in Book 2, then honestly I would have preferred to see another Book 2-style effort and let the Avatars go hang. That's purely personal preference, though.

[paradox]

I have not yet finished Book 3. I am mostly done with it, though.

I agree that the prose is lacking in spots. There are large sections early in book 3 that are just terribly written. The grammer is bad, the diction is bad, and the dialogue is outright confusing in places. However, once I reached the actual faction model sections, each faction piece was notably better than the previous areas mentioned.

Wyrd needs a new editor, and a better one. Some of the early parts felt like reading an unproofed rough.

[letsallchant]

dont you think it just adds to the gritty atmosphere of the game though. since malifaux is supposedly populated largely by criminals, undesirables, and other such folk who might not be experts in this so called prose

[Orboros]

If we assume that getting the Avatars right (plus a few extra minions) was the same amount of work as doing all the stuff in Book 2, then honestly I would have preferred to see another Book 2-style effort and let the Avatars go hang. That's purely personal preference, though.

Maybe it's just me because i play Malifaux since book 2 release and can't measure the difference of the steps from book 1 to 2 and book 2 to 3 content wise

I love the avatars thou, can't understand all the hate ^^

Edited December 28, 2011 by Orboros

[011121]

I generally like the idea of the avatars. Like I said I'll need to try them out to see if I like their actual abilities. Some seem to be a little too close to the original masters. I also like that they hint at having multiple types of avatars for a given master.

I guess I'd say that 2 felt really necessary to the game and 3 felt like some nice options to add.

[paradox]

dont you think it just adds to the gritty atmosphere of the game though. since malifaux is supposedly populated largely by criminals, undesirables, and other such folk who might not be experts in this so called prose

No. No I don't. It's one thing when it's deliberately written into the dialogue. It's another when it's unintentionally in the meta-prose.

[FancyZergling]

I generally like the idea of the avatars. Like I said I'll need to try them out to see if I like their actual abilities. Some seem to be a little too close to the original masters. I also like that they hint at having multiple types of avatars for a given master.

I guess I'd say that 2 felt really necessary to the game and 3 felt like some nice options to add.

I think the thing about Avatars though is for a lot of them you really need to understand the master and where they would need it and manifesting would be the best situation.

[letsallchant]

No. No I don't. It's one thing when it's deliberately written into the dialogue. It's another when it's unintentionally in the meta-prose.

its more authentic the way they did it

Edited December 29, 2011 by letsallchant

[Guardian]

The best thing Wyrd did with avatars was not make them auto-include!

Avatars give a new tactical dimension to the master, and not a beefed up version that must be included in order to stay "up in game".

And people are not liking them just because of that! When they "study" the combinations and evaluate new minions and avatars, they will apriciate them much more!

Good job wyrd!

PS. now go and fix the 2nd book stuff

[Kadeton]

The best thing Wyrd did with avatars was not make them auto-include!

Avatars give a new tactical dimension to the master, and not a beefed up version that must be included in order to stay "up in game".

And people are not liking them just because of that! When they "study" the combinations and evaluate new minions and avatars, they will apriciate them much more!

I actually really like the design of (most of) the Avatars, and I think they were generally done very well. I just personally think that "new tactical dimensions" are better served by adding minions to fill those gaps, and would have preferred to see more of those instead. I suspect Book 4 is going to be exactly what I'm looking for.

If the Avatars were just bigger, better versions of the Masters I would absolutely hate them.

[FancyZergling]

The best thing Wyrd did with avatars was not make them auto-include!

Avatars give a new tactical dimension to the master, and not a beefed up version that must be included in order to stay "up in game".

And people are not liking them just because of that! When they "study" the combinations and evaluate new minions and avatars, they will apriciate them much more!

Good job wyrd!

PS. now go and fix the 2nd book stuff

I don't think they need to fix book 2 as much as they should bring book 1 stuff up to book two standards.

[rancor709]

I love that avatars aren't auto includes. I love them being addiotional tactical doptions that allow expanded avenues for design. I..e now we could have minions geared toward helping an avatar transformed master. I think the book 1 stuff is fine. Book 2 raised the overall power level of th game and created some things that wyrd has already addressed. Book 3 minions are more of an evolutionary hybrid on one hand we get the rocket sauce that is lazarus and on the other a highly well round reminesiant of book 1 unit in the drowned. To me if book 3 philosphy of design is kept and cultivated wyrd will have much sucess. I doubt well ever sEe a power increase like we did in book 2.

[Omenbringer]

The best thing Wyrd did with avatars was not make them auto-include!

This was probably the hardest part of the whole endevour (I think the goal was met).

I actually really like the design of (most of) the Avatars, and I think they were generally done very well. I just personally think that "new tactical dimensions" are better served by adding minions to fill those gaps, and would have preferred to see more of those instead. I suspect Book 4 is going to be exactly what I'm looking for.

If the Avatars were just bigger, better versions of the Masters I would absolutely hate them.

The problem with introducing more minion models to the mix is maintaining the individuality of the crews and relative balance in the game. An Avatar is limited to offering his "new Tactical dimensions" to only his crew, a new minion offers it to at least his whole faction (possibly more if he has a certain characteristic). Balancing these models is a lot more work, unless you give them a set of hiring restrictions (which kind of defeats the purpose).

[Omenbringer]

I...now we could have minions geared toward helping an avatar transformed master.

We already have at least 1 model that does this, look at Molly and Avatar Seamus (she really is the glue that bonds the crew before manifestation to the crew after it).

To me if book 3 philosphy of design is kept and cultivated wyrd will have much sucess. I doubt well ever sEe a power increase like we did in book 2.

Hopefully this wont happen again.

[011121]

We already have at least 1 model that does this, look at Molly and Avatar Seamus (she really is the glue that bonds the crew before manifestation to the crew after it).

I'd argue the Arcane Effigy is a major help in getting some avatar forms. The extra casting AP plus another card is pretty huge.

[Omenbringer]

Definately agree that the Arcane Effigy can help to manifest into an avatar, but the comment was about models that help the transformed master.

[Kadeton]

The problem with introducing more minion models to the mix is maintaining the individuality of the crews and relative balance in the game. An Avatar is limited to offering his "new Tactical dimensions" to only his crew, a new minion offers it to at least his whole faction (possibly more if he has a certain characteristic). Balancing these models is a lot more work, unless you give them a set of hiring restrictions (which kind of defeats the purpose).

I think most of the minions that are included in Book 3 are good examples of minions that add tactical nuance with a great deal of synergy to specific crews. Looking through the list, each Master and Henchman (except perhaps Von Schill) got a single new minion that seems designed specifically with them in mind.

In general, I would like to see the emphasis on crew synergy ramped up and flexibility toned down... it's cool to have the occasional bit of (fluff-supported) weirdness, like taking a Rogue Necromancy in a Marcus crew, but I'd prefer to see more minions that were not necessarily given hiring restrictions, but simply made to have significantly more value for a particular play style (and therefore one specific master). I realise that many people would vehemently disagree with me on that preference.

[Wolfgar]

I think a certain degree of power creep is just going to happen over time; the trick is just to keep it from having overly large spikes.

[011121]

Definately agree that the Arcane Effigy can help to manifest into an avatar, but the comment was about models that help the transformed master.

Gotcha.

[dsmiles]

Looking through the list, each Master and Henchman (except perhaps Von Schill) got a single new minion that seems designed specifically with them in mind.

*coughcough*Lazarus*coughcough*

[rancor709]

Creeps going to happen but power surges should be supressed. I love crew synergy as well and having more options built for my playstyle I'm all for. Generally useful minions lead to too much of the same girl Different makeup that generalist give you.

[anathema]

Glad its not just me who hates the (at times) clumsy writing style. The speech written for Hoffman and Sebastian is just awful IMO, they sounds like no Englishmen I've ever met. On the other hand the concepts are imaginative and enjoyable to read. While the writers no doubt love doing it, they need better editing to make their ideas shine. In summary; great ideas for a fictional world, poor written execution.