Things I Hate About Malifaux

[kasin666]

I think the masters themselves are mostly okay. It's the synergy that book 2's crews give them that seems to be what's tipping the scales. Sure, when they release new minions, they want them to be usable by a large number of players, but a few more minions with better specific synergies to book 1 masters would be nice.

Oh, look, we gave Seamus one more Belle, Nicodem gets Rafkin, here's one more Woe...

The handbrake for the Dreamer might just be taking the Nightmare characteristic off of Lelu and Lilitu. They're already Neverborn, so he can hire them anyways. Even with their high SS cost, he's likely to still receive his 5ss starting cache from Master of Dreams. Does he really need to be able to drop them anywhere on the board? Lure has an 18" range, isn't that good enough to get an enemy model close enough for Lelu to maul it? Leaving them as Nephilim doesn't do much one way or the other now that Nekima has already had her handbrake applied to her Nephilim Heart. Infinite Lure? Yeah, I hope you had fun with it while it lasted. Leaving them as Woes helps Pandora, but even if they weren't, she could still hire them for all of the same shenanigans.

interesting thought there dont know how well it would effect anything i play dreamer never used alp bombs other than once with lilith just to see what the fuss about them was watched opponents crew wipe itself out what boring game that was, and i dont own a pair of twins yet ive wiped out my opponents intire crew out by turn two many times with just chompy while the rest of my crew was still buried so i do think he could use an adjustment just not sure where

[Q'iq'el]

Leaving them as Nephilim doesn't do much one way or the other now that Nekima has already had her handbrake applied to her Nephilim Heart. Infinite Lure? Yeah, I hope you had fun with it while it lasted. Leaving them as Woes helps Pandora, but even if they weren't, she could still hire them for all of the same shenanigans.

Nekima's cuddle was the worst ever change to happen to a model in this game (with the exception of the Sorrows cuddle perhaps, but that was short-lived and long ago) so better not use it as an example. Infinite Lure was problem in Pandora lists that spammed Lilitu and used Pandora's auras and abilities to boost the effect and the damage. There was perhaps a need to intervene there.

Instead they broke Nekima's synergy with Lilitu and Lelu.

Guess what? She's near useless now. Even in Growth lists she doesn't pull her weight. She merely enables 5 Tots to become 5 Young and overwhelm the opponents, but these are the Young that shine in such numbers - Nekima herself suffers the same fate as in any other list:

- Can't reach opponents because she's mobile only on paper (she has no Diving Attack and is too big to fit in many places, so she has to move around stuff and cannot charge models the way other Nephilim do on the top of that).

- Can't hide so she gets focused and dies before she does anything meaningful (see lack of mobility).

- Can't heal, because Regeneration 1 is not healing and it was Lilitu's healing making up for Nekima's low Df and very high visibility. But taking Lilitu with Nekima doesn't make much sense anymore (as you need to spam Terror Tots/Young to justify taking Nekima).

I've tried her out several times, in my Lilith list, since the cuddle. She gets paralyzed by Mannequins, killed by shooting, exploded - nobody has any problem dealing with her, while she cannot reach the valuable targets (or in fact any targets) her combat prowess would match (I've seen a game where all she got was killing a foolish Mechanical Dove that flew by and not for the lack of trying).

Guess what? If she had Lilitu next to her and semi-automatic Lure (because without Pandora and second Lilitu one cannot really guarantee it goes off all the way down), she wouldn't have that problem because these models would be dragged into her range. Now you just can't count for that.

Lilitu still works, obviously, but you can pair her up with Lilith or Mature Nephilim and you get roughly the same result as with Nekima, so there's no point in paying for her. Actually better than with Nekima, because models cannot run from Lilith as easily and you can use the combo to lock them down (and bring 4~5 strikes a turn on them, if they try to disengage).

[i_was_like_you]

See thread Nekima, the expensive poorly modeled sibling:

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=25818

I'm not saying I don't agree with you, but we certainly have a thread for beating that horse (and, now, here in the U.S. we can eat that horse too).

---------------------------

On the same lines of Nekima, I think that regeneration should happen during the end closing phase, or thereabouts, instead of when the model next activates. Possibly having to waste a stone to win initiative to hope that I can activate my big beastie for at least one final swing or to get it the heck out of dodge, hopefully for some additional healing, is such a waste. Sure, it may be partially my fault that my model with regen is in whichever dire predicament, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be able to heal at the end of turn when other damage effects, like burning tokens, resolve.

[Q'iq'el]

See thread Nekima, the expensive poorly modeled sibling:

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=25818

I'm not saying I don't agree with you, but we certainly have a thread for beating that horse (and, now, here in the U.S. we can eat that horse too).

Actually that horse needs some public beating IMHO. Neverborn may be the faction with some very strong masters and as such they receive little sympathy, but Nekima is neither a master nor strong.

She's a big, expensive model that takes time to build and paint , so she is a pretty rare sight to begin with. Unlike Sorrows' Link debacle, where every Pandora player was immediately affected, the change's only visible effect is disappearance of Pandora's FILTH lists, which is desirable so people think the change was fine.

The fact that Lilith and Zoraida players have put Nekima on their shelves and haven't used her once unless to experiment goes more or less unnoticed.

The thread you linked was a thread of predictions - the reaction of the players to fresh changes. After almost half a year we can say with confidence that the predictions were more or less right or even that the situation is even worse.

For example I knew back then how horrible Nekima is at reaching combat and I predicted she's going to have trouble without a helpful Lure now and then. I've completely missed on the fact that removing Lilitu from the equation means Nekima's Wd drop like a stone with no means to recover them. BTW, Lilitu's healing works exactly like you suggest Regeneration should (in Closing Phase), which is probably why it was good for keeping Nekima alive for longer.

[i_was_like_you]

Maybe we're all just missing some point, like 13ss models need to be in bigger lists, like 50ss+ instead of trying to make their way into the more common, tournament-sized 35ss matches.

Sadly, in 35ss, for me anyways, it comes down to whether I take Nekima or the Twins. I can't really afford to sack Tots to bring back / bring in another Lelu or Lilitu if my aim is to grow them into bigger, meaner models, with or without a grow list. Nekima certainly makes them grow better, but what if I just want to do it the old fashioned, book 1 way of letting them maul the enemy (living or undead)? Both Nekima and the Twins are telling me that I could just be taking up to four more Tots (five with an extra ss or two lying around), or other useful models in their places. More activations from decent models should trump fewer activations from models that seem good on paper and, as we've seen, less good on the battlefield.

--------------

It seems that calling this the Hate thread was quite effective. It started out with us venting, getting our major gripes out of our system, and, for now, has remained a fairly stable conversation on items that may need improvement.

Edited December 15, 2011 by i_was_like_you

[Adran]

Example

A difference of 10 to hit your opponent after they have flipped for Defence. Percentages without Jokers

Assuming you have drawn 6 opening cards and flipped 1 for initiative. There are 47 cards remaining. 1 of which is the Red Joker and/or the Black Joker.

Hitting a Joker in 47 cards on 3 flips - 0.063830

Hitting a Joker in 47 cards on 4 flips - 0.085106

Difference Between 3 and 4 flips to hit Joker 0.021277

Difference Between 3 and 4 flips Percentages 0.020167

Chance to Succeed on :-fate Flip with Red Joker Possible 0.09296

Chance to Succeed on :-fate:-fate Flip with Red Joker Possible 0.09407

So if in this case its better for me to say a model is in cover and get that extra because it both gives a better chance to hit and reduces the number of cards in my deck so I have better knowledge of what is left to flip. Running a pessimistic game feels wrong to me but it is mathematically better.

I disagree.

The chances of you having the 2 jokers in your 47 cards and you getting to use a red Joker in the duel is 0.0611 for -2 flip and 0.0796 for -3 flip, so a 0.185 increase of the red joker.

(I'm not looking at the odds of getting 10+ on the flips with a random 7 cards taken out, I'll take your word on those)

If you only have 1 joker let in those 47 cards then the numbers you quoted are correct.

What you've not shown is the chance that you'll lose good cards. And whilst you'll know what is in your deck better, you are less likely to be able to make your flips. personally I don't analyse my turns that much, and am happy with the randomness. Less randomness but less likelyness is not what I want

Of course if you managed to get the red joker on that attack flip there is 0 chance of you flipping it on the damage flip you've just created.

This sumerises that if you're on a really hard shot then actually making it harder makes it more likely, but with a detrimental effect on the rest of your turn.

I'd like to paraphrase Terry Pratchett here

"Million to one shots crop up 9 times out of 10".

It makes the story better than those impossible odds just sometimes work. And the game is primarily a story driven game.

[Q'iq'el]

Maybe we're all just missing some point, like 13ss models need to be in bigger lists, like 50ss+ instead of trying to make their way into the more common, tournament-sized 35ss matches.

It would be true if Nekima had some crew-wide influence or affected the opponent the way Pandora does (some big auras or other such effect).

As is, her influence is very limited by range and the models that team up with her are more or less sacrificing their movement so that they can end the turn in range and get the benefits from her pulse in the next turn. Moreover, she has to activate before them which further limits tactical flexibility of such formation. If an opportune target appears and the models use their speed boost or damage boost to chase and kill it, she either has to follow them, or they have to catch up with her next turn, leaving them without their buffs for a turn.

The larger the crew grows, then, the more models operate outside of Nekima's influence.

There are plenty of models in Neverborn crews, even among Nephilim, which grow exponentially in power if you bring them in pairs or spam them. Lelu and Lilitu are some of the most efficient examples of that, but even simple Tots/Young get scary if you double their numbers. Nekima doesn't get scarier in larger crew - she tops out at 35~40SS and doesn't add much more further up (I've played her up to 45SS). In other words, even in big crews you are better off by taking Siblings, shamans and such perhaps some utility models which wouldn't necessarily make it into a smaller Nephilim crew (Insidious Madness, Stitched, Waldgeist).

[Rathnard]

There's nothing I hate about Malifaux - hate is far too strong a word.

There are a few things that I feel might need improvement however.

First and foremost seems to be the bury mechanic. Over the past few months we seem to have found more and more ways to abuse the ability to bury models. A common trick with the Dreamer has always been to "Prime" his crew (ie. defensive stance and/or the Dreamers terror pulse) before burying them, now we've also got the soulstone miner abusing overdrive for all the benefits and none of the negatives, so long as it buries before finishing it's activation. I've even figured out a way to do the same with the Doppelganger, allowing you to pile on the mimic effects turn after turn.

What it comes down to, then, is that there's some decent justification to rethink how bury should work.

I also wouldn't mind seeing some tweaks to certain minions, but possibly not the ones most are thinking of. It's the Malifaux Childs, the Razorspine Rattlers and the Bishops I'd like to see tweaked. Its usually the "overpowered" minions that get all the attention, but it'd be great to have a good reason to take the models that are consistently ignored.

Honestly though, there's very little that I actually dislike about the game. :smugpuppet1

[ukrocky]

Lady J needs a trick.

@Kael - Just wondering if you've ever tried with or against Lady J with Lucius and a student of conflict?

[Kael Hate]

@Kael - Just wondering if you've ever tried with or against Lady J with Lucius and a student of conflict?

Nope. I'm waiting on a Student that is on Order. I don't even know what I am buying because there is no current print of the rules except for the Card with the Model. Lucius is pro but still not tricky when compared to dreamer. PM me some details about it or a link. I'm always looking to know more.

Another thing for me to hate. No ability to acquire book 1 or its equivalent for newbs. The Guild players around here have 0 Austringers because they don't know that they exist :S

[Stonedog-7]

Another thing for me to hate. No ability to acquire book 1 or its equivalent for newbs. The Guild players around here have 0 Austringers because they don't know that they exist :S

That I'd have to argue against a bit... there's more than enough stuff online without even coming to the forums to promote pretty much the entire range of Malifaux figs including the free V2 cards for alot of book one stuff ... or a bricks and mortar store if there's one nearby... or dare i say it, you, if you're the only one going out to get more info... personally i ferry alot of info back to the gaming group about new releases and such as i seem to be the main forum browser

Locally we started with the Rules Manual and have been picking up figs based on what we like, pullmyfinger and advice from the forum and we've hit absolutely no need for the other books... we've recently picked up Rising Powers which has allowed a little proxying to test new things but tbh even that's been really limited as we prefer to have cards rather than refer to the books constantly

Twisted Fates is something a little different as the rules manual of course doesn't cover avatars... but we still haven't picked it up yet (that's for the new year)

[dsmiles]

Another thing for me to hate. No ability to acquire book 1 or its equivalent for newbs.

It's all over. Try Amazon and eBay.

The Guild players around here have 0 Austringers because they don't know that they exist :S

Austringers are us Guildies' dirty little secret. The raptors must flow.

[Nephalumps]

So side question for all those who think Book one masters are not as good as book 2. Should old masters get upgraded or book 2 toned down?

Short answer: bring Book 1 stuff up.

Long answer: Book 2 demonstrated that the developers became significantly more comfortable with their rule set after Book 1, and they created some really awesome, powerful, and fun interactions. Some of these are Master based, and some are Minion based, but the strong impression I get is that Book 1 models were designed relatively conservatively rules-wise, whereas Book 2 models were typically much more ambitious.

Some Book 1 models need a re-write overall. In the context of Book 1, they may have been okay, but when you look at Book 2/3 models, it really feels like they weren't designed for the same playing environment.

IMO, Myranda is a great example of Book 1 design vs. Book 2 design. As she is now, she's conditionally very powerful, and sometimes very useful, but overall her rules are very conservative.

If she was a Book 2 model, she'd have Instinctive, Shapechange would be a non-spell (0) action, she'd probably have Casting Expert instead of Furious Casting, and her Cb would be higher (either base, or through her Clawshape buff.)

And she'd probably be 6 SS to boot.

While I think that some of the Book 1 Masters could benefit from a few tweaks here and there (some spells/abilities are still pretty janky, and Book 2/3 only illustrate this even more,) I agree with i_was_like_you in that the bigger issue is that the Book 1 Minions are hugely lacking in comparison to the Book 2 Minions. Give the Book 1 Minions a bump (a lot of them have good roles/ideas that would help out their Masters, if they weren't under the curve,) and I think the gap closes a fair bit.

The handbrake for the Dreamer might just be taking the Nightmare characteristic off of Lelu and Lilitu.

Not that this horse isn't well flayed, but I just want to say again: the biggest issue with the Twins is that they're Rare 2 apiece.

In my initial reading of them, I thought: "Okay cool, a powerful pair of models, but if one dies you're kind of boned." And then I realized they weren't Unique.

Being able to double down on them mitigates a large part of that risk, and also leads to all kinds of shenanigans from having multiples of such nasty models.

Can't un-ring this bell, since so many people have bought multiples already, but I stand by my thought.

[ukrocky]

Nope. I'm waiting on a Student that is on Order. I don't even know what I am buying because there is no current print of the rules except for the Card with the Model. Lucius is pro but still not tricky when compared to dreamer. PM me some details about it or a link. I'm always looking to know more.

Another thing for me to hate. No ability to acquire book 1 or its equivalent for newbs. The Guild players around here have 0 Austringers because they don't know that they exist :S

The student's rules are available on the v2 pdfs over there <---

With regards to Lucius/LadyJ it's Stern's tactic but basically you leave LadyJ and a Student in your deployment zone, run Lucius forward. Next turn, give LadyJ fast, call her forward using Lucius meaning she's got into combat without being shot and ready to go.

Next turn give the judge fast...

Rinse and repeat.

[karn987]

Another thing for me to hate. No ability to acquire book 1 or its equivalent for newbs. The Guild players around here have 0 Austringers because they don't know that they exist :S

The Wiki will help you with this! Point your new players to the Wiki and they shall be learned!

Seariously though, we created and work on the wiki to provide players of all levels with information, tactics, and advice on how to play and play against every model in the game. Each article gives you more then enough information to understand what a model does, how they fit into their crews, and how to use them.

So please, consider at least finding information on models and crews a solved issue as we've been working hard on this for over half a year now.

LINK: http://pullmyfinger.wikispaces.com/

[Mr_Smigs]

The Wiki will help you with this! Point your new players to the Wiki and they shall be learned!

Seariously though, we created and work on the wiki to provide players of all levels with information, tactics, and advice on how to play and play against every model in the game. Each article gives you more then enough information to understand what a model does, how they fit into their crews, and how to use them.

So please, consider at least finding information on models and crews a solved issue as we've been working hard on this for over half a year now.

LINK: http://pullmyfinger.wikispaces.com/

ok, gotta add that to my gripes list.

the instant assumption of the online community that the entire community is online.

back in my WM days I did an unofficial survey when I was on the road, to discover that only about 1 out of every 8 players went online to research their game... (at Gen Con one year one of the press gangers did a similar questioning to find about the same result in players there...)

the rest relied on the books, and favored using their sparse free time to actually play the game or paint rather than obsess over the forums...

since then, i've always assumed the same of any game with online support...

but most of the online supporters seem to avoid even entertaining the notion that there are players who don't netdeck their lists, or read every rules query that appears on the forums...

[nilus]

An Irk that I hated at the time.

Not being able to cheat Neg flips.

The percentage going from a neutral to flip is horrid. Why can I replace cards in a flip but not a flip?.

This one I don't get. This is the way the game works. You can't cheat negative fate. It makes the game about positioning models and doing things to get into position to get the most fate on your side.

You can replace a cards on +fate because you are getting rewarded for putting your model in the right place at the right time to strike. If you could cheat negative fate it would break the game. Especially when you consider a red joker trumps everything but a black joker. People would be throwing it down in negative damage flips all the time.

[Fenrir]

ok, gotta add that to my gripes list.

the instant assumption of the online community that the entire community is online.

back in my WM days I did an unofficial survey when I was on the road, to discover that only about 1 out of every 8 players went online to research their game... (at Gen Con one year one of the press gangers did a similar questioning to find about the same result in players there...)

the rest relied on the books, and favored using their sparse free time to actually play the game or paint rather than obsess over the forums...

since then, i've always assumed the same of any game with online support...

but most of the online supporters seem to avoid even entertaining the notion that there are players who don't netdeck their lists, or read every rules query that appears on the forums...

This sort of ties in with my earlier V1/V2 cards complaint. I had no idea that some cards are still at V1 until I mentioned it here, but it seems to have been assumed by some that I should already have known this.

[i_was_like_you]

Short answer: bring Book 1 stuff up.

Long answer: Book 2 demonstrated that the developers became significantly more comfortable with their rule set after Book 1, and they created some really awesome, powerful, and fun interactions. Some of these are Master based, and some are Minion based, but the strong impression I get is that Book 1 models were designed relatively conservatively rules-wise, whereas Book 2 models were typically much more ambitious.

Some Book 1 models need a re-write overall. In the context of Book 1, they may have been okay, but when you look at Book 2/3 models, it really feels like they weren't designed for the same playing environment.

IMO, Myranda is a great example of Book 1 design vs. Book 2 design. As she is now, she's conditionally very powerful, and sometimes very useful, but overall her rules are very conservative.

If she was a Book 2 model, she'd have Instinctive, Shapechange would be a non-spell (0) action, she'd probably have Casting Expert instead of Furious Casting, and her Cb would be higher (either base, or through her Clawshape buff.)

And she'd probably be 6 SS to boot.

While I think that some of the Book 1 Masters could benefit from a few tweaks here and there (some spells/abilities are still pretty janky, and Book 2/3 only illustrate this even more,) I agree with i_was_like_you in that the bigger issue is that the Book 1 Minions are hugely lacking in comparison to the Book 2 Minions. Give the Book 1 Minions a bump (a lot of them have good roles/ideas that would help out their Masters, if they weren't under the curve,) and I think the gap closes a fair bit.

Not that this horse isn't well flayed, but I just want to say again: the biggest issue with the Twins is that they're Rare 2 apiece.

In my initial reading of them, I thought: "Okay cool, a powerful pair of models, but if one dies you're kind of boned." And then I realized they weren't Unique.

Being able to double down on them mitigates a large part of that risk, and also leads to all kinds of shenanigans from having multiples of such nasty models.

Can't un-ring this bell, since so many people have bought multiples already, but I stand by my thought.

Sounds good. So, how about we make them Rare 1 instead of Unique? We'd get to keep our doubles and it'd get more people pushing for Brawls over Scraps. As long as one Twin survives and we have an expendable Nephilim nearby, we can at least get our other Twin back. Isn't there already some nifty combo with Black Blood Shaman using Taint Blood to turn a D. Merc, or other model, into a Nephilim, that we could then sack to one Twin to bring the other back?

I'm still not sure how a named model, such as Lelu & Lilitu, can be a Rare 2 in the first place, as in a Lelu & a Lilitu. If they were a breed of Nephilim, maybe, but Lilitu is just one of so many names for Lilith.

[Nephalumps]

Sounds good. So, how about we make them Rare 1 instead of Unique? We'd get to keep our doubles and it'd get more people pushing for Brawls over Scraps. As long as one Twin survives and we have an expendable Nephilim nearby, we can at least get our other Twin back.

I'd be totally fine with this! My impression of Neverborn when I started playing was "glass cannon blitz", and the basics of the Twins work that way. But when you start taking two pairs of them, that "glass" factor goes away, leaving you with "cannon blitz." Great for the user, not so much for the guy/gal who has to deal with it.

At least with Rare 1, you wouldn't have to deal with Twin Twins outside of Brawls, which I think would make them a little more bearable.

I'm still not sure how a named model, such as Lelu & Lilitu, can be a Rare 2 in the first place, as in a Lelu & a Lilitu. If they were a breed of Nephilim, maybe, but Lilitu is just one of so many names for Lilith.

I was stunned by this as well. The way they look and the distinctiveness of the names (at least, they sound distinctive,) made me immediately think that they were new Nephalim characters. As my first crew was Lilith, I was pretty stoked about that.

Then I discovered they were also Woes.

Then I discovered they were also also Nightmares.

Then I discovered they were Rare 2.

And then I truly realized how OTT they are.

Edited December 15, 2011 by Nephalumps

[Lovemachine]

I like his dog. Hamlin has such a nice dog. He is so helpful. Then he eats my face.

[Lovemachine]

I like his dog. Hamlin has such a nice dog. He is so helpful. Then he eats my face.

Oh yeah, the things I hate...The fact that I have to buy a new deck every couple of months. I mean, its a good thing, because I play a lot. But man, it sucks havin to do that.

[nilus]

Oh yeah, the things I hate...The fact that I have to buy a new deck every couple of months. I mean, its a good thing, because I play a lot. But man, it sucks havin to do that.

Get a puppet deck, they last longer

I really wish Wyrd would put out the original Malifaux art decks on plastic. I would buy 20 of them

[Cunning]

I'm still not sure how a named model, such as Lelu & Lilitu, can be a Rare 2 in the first place, as in a Lelu & a Lilitu. If they were a breed of Nephilim, maybe, but Lilitu is just one of so many names for Lilith.

If you read the fluff you'll see that it isn't their names, but their breed/type. Just because it sounds like a name doesn't mean it is a name.

[Lovemachine]

Get a puppet deck, they last longer

I really wish Wyrd would put out the original Malifaux art decks on plastic. I would buy 20 of them

I bought the puppet deck, but A. It gives me bad luck, and B. when playing against newer players, it gets confusing. A faction specific plastic deck would be super sweet.