Stonedog-7 Posted November 24, 2011 Report Share Posted November 24, 2011 So I realised the other day that with Stitched, Twins and Coppellius picked up cheap i've actually got most of a viable Dreamer crew mini wise... that said i very definitely have some questions for the community at large I know Dreamer gets a lot of flack for being overpowered, and i already have Pandora earning me some of that, so... 1) Are there any particular considerations i need to make in order to keep Dreamer from making peoples games a misery? 2) Are there particular models or builds that i would be best to steer away from, particularly while people get used to what he can do because they're just too effective? eg. pre-cuddle alp bomb If it helps at all or makes any difference my main opponents are - Lady J, Criid, Rasputina, Leveticus, Marcus, Lilith, Hoffman, Colette Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CannonFodder Posted November 24, 2011 Report Share Posted November 24, 2011 the worst of it was the alp bomb. Dreamer is still extremely powerful, and its the fact that he can drop things right on top of ranged models and the ranged models have virtually no way of getting a shot off. Also the fact that you can on turn 1, put effect on you models like Def stance, bury them and then next turn drop them with the buffs (they don't lose buffs if buried at end of turn). AS long as you don't abuse those tactics you should not be considered cheesy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonedog-7 Posted November 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 25, 2011 OK, so don't abuse the bury setup mechanic too much with pre-set abilities... anything else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cunning Posted November 25, 2011 Report Share Posted November 25, 2011 I disagree. The Alp bomb was never his most effective tactic. Heavy use of twins and stitched is far worse in my experience. As far as using the Dreamer I'd say that not using the Chompy boomerang will go a long way to not ruining your opponent's experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozz Posted November 25, 2011 Report Share Posted November 25, 2011 Maybe don't max on the daydreams then you reduce the Manuverability of your crew a bit and your opponent has more of an idea of where you are going to be next turn (until you burn 2 stones and summon more but still) The issue as I see it is that the dreamer played right can be anywhere then drop everything on one model or a small group of models. And no way to stop it bar killing the dreamer, so be careful as sonnia as she can do that better than most if anyone. and the guild things that dont need Los to shoot. They can be problematic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsmiles Posted November 25, 2011 Report Share Posted November 25, 2011 I disagree. The Alp bomb was never his most effective tactic. I have to agree, especially since the Alp Bomb was cuddled. As far as playing the Dreamer, play him however you want. I usually play to win. If there's a trick I see, but my opponent doesn't, of course I'm going to use it. Not using it would be like taking "Toughness" as a feat in DnD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonedog-7 Posted November 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 25, 2011 I disagree. The Alp bomb was never his most effective tactic. Heavy use of twins and stitched is far worse in my experience. Alp bomb may not have been the most effective, but it seems that it was definitely the most maligned as it removed the need to play as effectively As for used of the stitched and twins, i'll definitely be keeping things kind of toned down, i have a pair of the twins and am considering a second (my first pair are Hell Dorado minis, the second pair would be for a different look) but i think i'll rarely be using more than a single pair with the Dreamer Limited use of the boomerang, yeah, had picked up on being able to bounce back and forth with little/no chance of retalliation being a big thing at least dropping your whole force on the enemy gives them a fighting chance Not maxing Daydreams... interesting, do keep hearing they're the key to his playstyle, is just starting with 2 instead of 3 enough? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozz Posted November 25, 2011 Report Share Posted November 25, 2011 Not maxing Daydreams... interesting, do keep hearing they're the key to his playstyle, is just starting with 2 instead of 3 enough? I used to start with one or none before i learnt more about how he works with them. They increase the area of the board that you threaten a lot, but are not essential, as i said it allows your opponent to have more of an idea of where they need to support instead of needing to cover everywhere and failing usually. Still won the Majority of the games like that though so he works without them just rarely recommended:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cunning Posted November 25, 2011 Report Share Posted November 25, 2011 (edited) 2 daydreams is all you need for the boomerang. Actually you could do it with 1 but you wouldn't get quite the same range. Edited November 25, 2011 by CunningStunt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozz Posted November 25, 2011 Report Share Posted November 25, 2011 1 gets you the range, 2 & 3 allow the return, but you need both for the return, as you must bury chompy before summoning again:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozz Posted November 25, 2011 Report Share Posted November 25, 2011 Actually i lie, chompy has the all done trigger which i have never used before:( Even more mistakes ive been making:( So only 2 are needed, but the second does not change the range he can attack from (at least as i understand it from the wiki) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zwergenkrieger Posted November 26, 2011 Report Share Posted November 26, 2011 What is "the boomerang" all about? And how works Dreamer´s alpha strike? Or is it the same? HTG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozz Posted November 26, 2011 Report Share Posted November 26, 2011 It's the same I belive, the way to do it is on the wiki. Not entiey ful to face off against at times though so try to only do it if you must:p Also don't leave him out alone in front of marcus and his crew he dies:p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huang Da Wei Posted November 26, 2011 Report Share Posted November 26, 2011 Can I just ask for some crew advice as I have aquired some models for cheap price. At the moment I have dreamer, LCB, coppelius, kade, 2 stitched, 3 daydreams and teddy. As I have only played 2 games so far (with mcmourning) what would be a good 25ss set up to allow me to learn their play style? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clement Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 Can I just ask for some crew advice as I have aquired some models for cheap price. At the moment I have dreamer, LCB, coppelius, kade, 2 stitched, 3 daydreams and teddy. As I have only played 2 games so far (with mcmourning) what would be a good 25ss set up to allow me to learn their play style? I'd say remove baby kade and a daydream, then either Coppelius or Teddy depending on your opponent (Coppelius doesn't do so hot against non-living models). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huang Da Wei Posted November 28, 2011 Report Share Posted November 28, 2011 but Kade is so cute, and the reason I bought wyrd models and got into the game in the first place. I suppose I would like to run him with a teddy for fun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clement Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 but Kade is so cute, and the reason I bought wyrd models and got into the game in the first place. I suppose I would like to run him with a teddy for fun While you can do that, and Kade and the Teddy do play well together, he's going to be kind of a burden in the crew. The Dreamers key feature is the ability to bury and unbury nightmares. He also makes Teddy a nightmare. This means the whole crew (minus Kade) is going to go cruising across the field, while Kade is stuck running across the field trying to keep up. Kade's "Where's Teddy" power might help get Kade into combat, but it's more often used to get the little guy *out* of combat. Having said that, It's your crew. Baby Kade can function in a dreamer list and is certainly worth a shot if you enjoy the figures. P.P.S. Pandora loves having Kade, a Teddy and Stitched Togethers in her crew just fine... Might be an interesting master choice to branch into eventually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huang Da Wei Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 thanks for the advice, I see what you mean about burying so kade can wait for his day. maybe when he grows up a bit. I like the sound of the Pandora option, just buying 1 more master for a whole new way of playing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 The Boomerang and the alpha strike can be combined into the same thing but do not have to be. Basically: The Dreamer begins with 2 Daydreams in play and his whole crew buried. Dreamer and Daydreams Companion. Daydream 1 walks up 6" and Uses Magical extension to cast Frightening Dream to unbury Chompy 6" in front of him. Daydream 1 then uses his 0 action to put chompy away before he would activate and replaces him with the Dreamer. The Dreamer now goes and uses his 0 action to I can fly, and then flies 7" upfield. The Dreamer now can choose to alpha strike with his crew or just with Chompy. In either case he uses Frightening Dreams to unbury either Chompy or his whole crew 6" upfield of himself. Chompy now goes, and takes an attack + his Melee expert attack, and on his final attack uses ALL DONE to put himself away and unbury the Dreamer. Daydream 2 now goes and uses magical extension to cast frightening dream to unbury chompy within 6" of himself In the Dreamer's deployment zone and then uses his 0 action to put chompy away. Now the opponent may take his first activation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistercactus Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 After 1st Daydream casts Frightening Dream, why doesn't One Master kick in? Shouldn't Chompy activate immediately, interrupting the Daydream's activation in a similar way to, say, Slow To Die? Just ordered Nightmare Chompy myself, and look forward to learning his tricks, but I don't understand how this one is legal (Even though I know it is used quite widely). If someone could explain it to me, I'd be grateful. Thanks in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarragon Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 (edited) After 1st Daydream casts Frightening Dream, why doesn't One Master kick in? Shouldn't Chompy activate immediately, interrupting the Daydream's activation in a similar way to, say, Slow To Die? Just ordered Nightmare Chompy myself, and look forward to learning his tricks, but I don't understand how this one is legal (Even though I know it is used quite widely). If someone could explain it to me, I'd be grateful. Thanks in advance. I'd imagine because One Master is referring to when Chompy or Dreamer are activated; when one goes, the other can immediately follow because they are One Master. Because this is the Daydream affecting the models and not the models themselves doing actions and neither the Dreamer or Chompy have activated at this point, they're not affected by One Master and allow the Daydream to finish the activation. It must be a kinda similar trick to Lilitu luring Lelu further up the board. The Lelu is moving, but it's not spending AP to move. This is just what I'm thinking. I've ordered Nightmare Chompy myself, so I'm learning as well. Feel free to correct me! EDIT: Re-reading the rules, I'm actually having to agree. One Master does clearly state "Anytime this model is brought into play, this models controller must bury the Dreamer and this model activates immediately" So, what's going on here? Unless there's an errata? Edited November 29, 2011 by Tarragon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike3838 Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 The bit you're missing: an activation cannot interrupt another activation. Here, "immediately" means "next". If someone kills the Dreamer, Chompy unburies, the enemy model finishes out it's activation, *then* Chompy activates "immediately". In the case of the Daydream unburying Chompy, he is buried again before he gets to activate "next". This was ruled somewhere but not sure in which thread. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarragon Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 The bit you're missing: an activation cannot interrupt another activation. Here, "immediately" means "next". If someone kills the Dreamer, Chompy unburies, the enemy model finishes out it's activation, *then* Chompy activates "immediately". In the case of the Daydream unburying Chompy, he is buried again before he gets to activate "next". This was ruled somewhere but not sure in which thread. Mike OK, that makes sense now. Thanks a bunch! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistercactus Posted November 30, 2011 Report Share Posted November 30, 2011 So slow to die would be a special case rather than the general rule? I can live with that. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adran Posted November 30, 2011 Report Share Posted November 30, 2011 The rules manual says on the bottom of page 31 A model allowed to activate immediatly by an effect does so before any other model activates but after the current activation ends. No need for Errata. Slow to die is After this model is killed it may immeadeatly take and resolve a 1 AP action. This actiions results are applied before the model is removed from play. If the model is healed 1 or more Wd while resolving the action it is not killed and remains in play. Complety different timing. Its not activating, its judt getting to use an AP. Similar to Obey in that respect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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