Drain Souls questions

[Mr_Smigs]

1. can a Master sacrifice themselves?

2. If Marcus Alpha's an enemy Master, can they choose to Drain Souls?

3. If Marcus Alpha's an Enemy Master and chooses to drain souls, does he have to chose from the Marcus crew?

4. If Marcus Alpha's an Enemy Master and chooses to drain souls, who's models take the WP penalty?

[Asphyxxious]

Hmm lets see ill take a shot at this.

1) I would say so seeing as how it only says sacrifice up to 3 friendly models. No specification past that so yeah IMO

2) Don't see why not.

3) I would say yes. When you control their activation their model becomes friendly to you. Their crew would still be enemy models, and your crew friendly models as far as i know.

4) The WP penalty applies to every model in the masters crew. Not all friendly models like question 3. So i would assume their crew would get the WP penalty.

Hope I am right on these lol.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

1. can a Master sacrifice themselves?

I would guess probably, but if it is being controlled by an opposing crew the answer is no. You can't force an obeyed model or controled model to kill itself outright, summon... Etc. Check rm on further limitations.

2. If Marcus Alpha's an enemy Master, can they choose to Drain Souls?

above answer check that section in em, don't have book handy so I don't know section. Keep in mind a controled model by an opposed crew becomes an enemy to its original crew and friendly to controlling crew. So could only do so to own models.

3. If Marcus Alpha's an Enemy Master and chooses to drain souls, does he have to chose from the Marcus crew?

answered

4. If Marcus Alpha's an Enemy Master and chooses to drain souls, who's models take the WP penalty?

your crew not enemies as for above reasons.

Controlling opposed crews is explicitly outlined in em to prevent this kind of cheese since all factions have access to this. Sorry just don't have pg # for ya at this time. Hopefully someone else can post it otherwise I will later.

Pg13 controlling opposed models and who is friend or foe. Pg 50 drain soul... Friendly models only.

Nice idea doesn't work.

Edited November 5, 2011 by Mr. Bigglesworth

[Twisted Metal]

But the question still stands. Can a master voluntarily sac themselves for a SS?

[magicpockets]

You can't force an obeyed model or controled model to kill itself outright.

Misconception. Yes you can, just not with abilities which say you can't (such as Obey). Everyone says it's in the RM, it isn't

And re the OP I don't think you can drain souls on yourself as it says "friendly models" not "target friendly models". There's a ruling on this somewhere which I'm too hung over to find right now.

Edited November 11, 2011 by magicpockets

[Lucidicide]

Here is the post about targeting yourself:

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=26376

[magicpockets]

So yes you can then

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

But the question still stands. Can a master voluntarily sac themselves for a SS?

So yes you can then

No you may not.

A model may NOT intentionally perform any Action or Ability that would kill or sacrifice itself unless the ability used allowed it.

Which is why some of Leveticus' Actions state that he MAY kill himself with specific actions.

This was ruled ages ago and many times since.

[snord]

Sketch, thanks a lot for this ruling (I missed the "ages ago discussion"). It is a surprise to me, but I think makes total sense and prevents abuse on strategies/schemes like Deliver a Message.

But now I have to ask, what about Kirai's absorb spirit? I learned from Ratty himself the trick about becoming a spirit and sacrificing himself, to instead sacrifice Lost Love, effectively healing back to 6 wounds, getting 2 extra cards and becoming a spirit for the rest of the game. Is this allowed because it specifies a "friendly spirit"?

Thanks a lot

[tadaka]

Intresting i knew models could not kill themselves but thought sacrifice was allowed. As he put it above kirai self sac is a common tactic listed here on boards

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

Intresting i knew models could not kill themselves but thought sacrifice was allowed. As he put it above kirai self sac is a common tactic listed here on boards

A Common Tactic that seems to be incorrect.

[magicpockets]

No you may not.

A model may NOT intentionally perform any Action or Ability that would kill or sacrifice itself unless the ability used allowed it.

This was ruled ages ago and many times since.

A Common Tactic that seems to be incorrect.

At risk of arguing with the bear, the only rule was you couldn't do wounds on yourself which would kill you and that was why Levi's talents etc were errata'd as they do wounds and existing rules prevented him from using them to kill himself. As far as I remember there has never been a rule Forbidding you from blanket "killing yourself" or sacrificing yourself, in fact it's been long established that loco/pere (I always forget which one) can kill themselves with their ability as it does damage not wounds.

Is this 100% a ruling now that a model can never kill/sac itself unless its ability specifically was it can? Sorry to be pedantic but it is frustrating when its not in the rules manual an then RMs rule one way then the other. There's a thread on here about Ramos (iirc) sacrificing himself where a RM has stated he can sac himself.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

Is this 100% a ruling now that a model can never kill/sac itself unless its ability specifically was it can? Sorry to be pedantic but it is frustrating when its not in the rules manual an then RMs rule one way then the other. There's a thread on here about Ramos (iirc) sacrificing himself where a RM has stated he can sac himself.

Correct.

[Mako]

Soo, no more Suicide Kirai? Ah well...

[Serigala]

I've never thought to do this until I read this thread, but what about the Viks?

Is there anything to prevent one Vik from draining souls on the other one? I don't think there would be.

[Lucidicide]

The rules about not killing or sacrificing yourself still only applies to definite situations, correct? As I recall, in the past you could do something as long as it wasn't guaranteed to kill you.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

The rules about not killing or sacrificing yourself still only applies to definite situations, correct? As I recall, in the past you could do something as long as it wasn't guaranteed to kill you.

Also correct.

[Lucidicide]

Also correct.

Thanks!

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

I've never thought to do this until I read this thread, but what about the Viks?

Is there anything to prevent one Vik from draining souls on the other one? I don't think there would be.

One could sacrifice the other, yes.

[Mister_Q]

... it's been long established that loco/pere (I always forget which one) can kill themselves with their ability as it does damage not wounds.

How does the "models can't kill themselves" ruling in this thread fit with this situation? Papa Loco's spell covers what happens if the spell kills him - how does that work if he can't kill himself with it?

[Omenbringer]

Since it seems that we can ask related questions (vice starting new threads):

Can Some'r cast Get your Bro on a Bayou Gremlin if it would kill the Bayou Gremlin (netting a replacement and 2 Control Cards)?

Pretty sure I know the answer but am interested in confirmation.

[Mister_Q]

Can Some'r cast Get your Bro on a Bayou Gremlin if it would kill the Bayou Gremlin (netting a replacement and 2 Control Cards)?

There's no confusion over killing or sacrificing other models. The problem is just when a model is doing something that would kill itself.

The rules manual says models can't do Wds to themselves that would cause them to die but the ruling in here is saying a model can't do anything to itself that would cause it to die. This means Papa Loco's spell couldn't be used if it would kill him, even though it has a note covering what happens if it does.

[Tiny]

It's only in definite situations where you will die you cant use it. Seeing as its a spell you could flip the black joker or not reach the cc. So you can use it as normal.

[Thechosenone]

At risk of sounding demanding toward RMs and their higher ups... can someone please completely lay out in a more than one or two word cryptic post how this works? It would really help out the player base rather than us coming up with examples that get answered without any substance to it. I'm not meaning to be rude or anything but clearly there are people in this thread who don't see the difference between what Ramos can do and what Loco can do and why its set up that way.

please, teach rather than tell, so we understand the premise and can maybe save ourselves from asking this question a dozen different ways.

[Mister_Q]

It's only in definite situations where you will die you cant use it. Seeing as its a spell you could flip the black joker or not reach the cc. So you can use it as normal.

Makes sense, I guess - although you're still choosing to do something that will kill the model if all goes to plan. I see your point re the slight possibility of failure though.

[Mergoth]

The rules about not killing or sacrificing yourself still only applies to definite situations, correct? As I recall, in the past you could do something as long as it wasn't guaranteed to kill you.

Wait as cotton pickin' minute, so, if we were to Obey a model with 5 wounds remaining, we could make it jump off a 6' cliff because it's not guaranteed to kill the model...?