Zephir Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 Does Von Schill get to ignore hard to wound and gain a +flip vs models with the Superior Undead trait? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 TimeLapse Posted November 4, 2011 Report Share Posted November 4, 2011 Does Von Schill get to ignore hard to wound and gain a +flip vs models with the Superior Undead trait? I would say no since it says that the models are immune to effects that target undead, and Von Schill ability stats that vs undead. so It only workds when targeting undead. I could be wrong as a Von Schill player I wish i could kill molly that easly but as I read the rules i would say no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Headcase2 Posted November 4, 2011 Report Share Posted November 4, 2011 Von Schill's Undead Knowledge works against Superior Dead models, since it doesn't target. Search the forums and you'll find a RM reply somewhere, if you need confirmation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 TimeLapse Posted November 4, 2011 Report Share Posted November 4, 2011 hmmm yay im wrong! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Zephir Posted November 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2011 Von Schill's Undead Knowledge works against Superior Dead models, since it doesn't target. Search the forums and you'll find a RM reply somewhere, if you need confirmation. I did search the forums. I didn't find anything. I would appreciate if a RM either chimed in, or pointed me in the right direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Zephir Posted November 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 So this has caused a rather large debate in our play group, is there an official ruling on it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Q'iq'el Posted November 7, 2011 Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 (edited) I'd say Superior Dead cancels Undead Knowledge. The Strikes and Spells must target an Undead model to receive the boost from Undead Knowledge. In other words, the ability triggers from attacking Undead and that involves targeting, so indirectly, but it still is an ability targeting Undead. Edited November 7, 2011 by Q'iq'el Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Zephir Posted November 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2011 See thats how I feel, but not everyone is satisfied with that answer, Others in my play group have said, Undead Knowledge itself technically doesn't target, even though its tied in with an attack that requires a target. Its a complex interaction, so a rm ruling would help settle this for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Math Mathonwy Posted November 9, 2011 Report Share Posted November 9, 2011 Von Schill's Undead Knowledge works against Superior Dead models, since it doesn't target. Search the forums and you'll find a RM reply somewhere, if you need confirmation. There's no thread (other than this and Seamus tactica) that mentions both of the those rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Visquaz Posted November 9, 2011 Report Share Posted November 9, 2011 Wouldn't that situation be just like when the Trapper shoots at Ramos? Discussed here: http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=23738 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Zephir Posted November 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2011 Probably, but that too was never answered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Zephir Posted November 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 Sorry to beat a dead horse, but can we get a RM for this, it came up again in our games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Mr. Bigglesworth Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 It seems clear it doesn't the strike specifically targets the model but undead knowledge doesn't target or have any wording with target. Superior undead only kicks in if it is targeted because it is undead. Undead knowledge should work on models like Molly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Q'iq'el Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 It seems clear it doesn't the strike specifically targets the model but undead knowledge doesn't target or have any wording with target. Superior undead only kicks in if it is targeted because it is undead. Undead knowledge should work on models like Molly. It's not clear at all. I'd love to see a ruling. What Undead Knowledge seems to be doing (IMHO), to put it in different terms, is to give an otherwise normal strike an extra attribute, which activates only when the strike targets Undead. In Malifaux terms it would be an effect attached to the Strike, I'm just not sure if it is supposed to work that way (definitely Malifaux Rules don't provide for such interactions). So now we have a Strike that can target anything and a component/effect/attribute that activates only when the Strike targets Undead... fluff-wise that's exactly what Superior Dead prevents. RAI seems to swing that way too, at least as far as my view on the problem goes. RAW Malifaux manual doesn't deal with such cases, so it really is up to the Marshals to create a precedent and explain how it is supposed to work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Zephir Posted November 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 Bumping with hopes of an answer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Zephir Posted November 29, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 Is it time to give up on ever getting an answer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Lucidicide Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 Is it time to give up on ever getting an answer? Never give up! Although, I will say from past experience, bumping the thread doesn't help. Usually if an answer takes awhile, it's because they're figuring out a best case scenario, not ignoring the question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Zephir Posted November 29, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 Thanks man! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Toonook Posted November 30, 2011 Report Share Posted November 30, 2011 Seems pretty cut and dry to me. Superior dead is immune to effects that specifically target undead. Nowhere does it specify an undead model. Ergo, Von Schill's undead knowledge is an effect that specifies undead as the trait it effects. Effectively making superior dead immune to that effect. Effect? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Adran Posted November 30, 2011 Report Share Posted November 30, 2011 For what its worth I agree Superior dead does not help with undead knowledge. I'm basing it on Ryles Can't connect ruling which only applies when it is selected as a target, allowing Reenforcements and maintain machines to effect him because they don't target him, just effect friendly models At no point in a VonSchill attack is there an effect which targets Undead. So there is no effect for the Superior dead to ignore. If his Magnetic pulse instead gave Undead slow, then superior dead still wouldn't work. They haven't been Targeted. It won't stop Restore Natural order. Currently All I can see it does is Judged will have the lesser damage line, and it can choose McMornings Master Surgeon to not effect it. There might be a few other effects, but it is nowhere near as useful as perfect Machine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Toonook Posted November 30, 2011 Report Share Posted November 30, 2011 But you could say that his bonuses from undead knowledge are an effect which only work against undead. They don't apply to any other traits but specifically against undead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Adran Posted November 30, 2011 Report Share Posted November 30, 2011 But you could say that his bonuses from undead knowledge are an effect which only work against undead. They don't apply to any other traits but specifically against undead. Yes, but they don't target undead. Target is a keyword in the game with a specific meaning. Effects which don't Target a model don't trigger effects which require the model to be targeted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Q'iq'el Posted November 30, 2011 Report Share Posted November 30, 2011 Yes, but they don't target undead. Target is a keyword in the game with a specific meaning. Effects which don't Target a model don't trigger effects which require the model to be targeted. But that assumes if model is not immune to the rule, it is not immune to the effect. However with Undead Knowledge we have a bit of peculiar situation. Undead Knowledge itself doesn't target anything, but a Strike by Von Shill gains and ignores Hard to Wound *when* it targets undead. Can't Superior Undead protect you from these two effects on a Strike without interacting directly with the Undead Knowledge rule? Why not? The Strike, after all, targets the model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Adran Posted November 30, 2011 Report Share Posted November 30, 2011 But that assumes if model is not immune to the rule, it is not immune to the effect. However with Undead Knowledge we have a bit of peculiar situation. Undead Knowledge itself doesn't target anything, but a Strike by Von Shill gains and ignores Hard to Wound *when* it targets undead. Can't Superior Undead protect you from these two effects on a Strike without interacting directly with the Undead Knowledge rule? Why not? The Strike, after all, targets the model. You're adding words in to try and support your case, and they are words that could have easily been on the card if that was what they meant. If that was the intent they could have written Undead Knowledge as follows "When targeting Undead models with a melee or ranged Strike or melee Spells, this model recieves to damage flips and ignores the Hard to Wound Ability." Which is a one word difference. And considering it looks like they wrote the rule to be like that for a while (Von Schill doesn't have any melee spells for a start) I don't see them missing this if thats what they wanted it to do. And in an answer that probably contridicts my last point Undead knowledge has no effect upon an undead model. It modifies Von Schill. So prehaps they should have written "When Targetting an undead model with a ranged or melee strike or a melee spell, the undead model loses any hard to wound it has, and gains easy to wound 1" Which would do exactly the same as the current Undead Knowledge, except it would allow Superior dead to ignore it. Sorry, I've yet to see a valid arguement to suggest the rules aren't clear with only 1 possible outcome. Superior Dead won't protect you from those two additional effects, because they aren't targeting an undead. Strikes from Von Schill Attacking undead gain them. Which is not the same words as Strikes From Von Schill Targeting Undead. For Von Schill all his strikes or spells that could be attacking them will also target them, but its not always the case. Lady Justice can Attack them without targetting them using Restore Natural Order for example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Q'iq'el Posted November 30, 2011 Report Share Posted November 30, 2011 (edited) You're adding words in to try and support your case, and they are words that could have easily been on the card if that was what they meant. If that was the intent they could have written Undead Knowledge as follows "When targeting Undead models with a melee or ranged Strike or melee Spells, this model recieves to damage flips and ignores the Hard to Wound Ability." Which is a one word difference. And considering it looks like they wrote the rule to be like that for a while (Von Schill doesn't have any melee spells for a start) I don't see them missing this if thats what they wanted it to do. I think that wording would be redundant. One cannot attack another model with Strike without targeting it. In other words, I'm not exactly adding words there either - they are implied (Attacking by Strike includes targeting, whether it's ranged or melee). I'm trying to reverse the perspective here, which I don't know is a good approach or not. From the Superior Dead perspective there is a Strike coming and that strike has extra effects that activate, when the Strike targets undead. These elements of the Strike the model is immune to, because it is immune to effects that target undead. Undead knowledge doesn't target anything, true. But it doesn't apply its effects to undead either. It applies them to Strike. And the Strike targets undead - so through Strike the effects target undead. And Superior Dead provides immunity to effects that target the model as an undead, right? Edited November 30, 2011 by Q'iq'el Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0 Spiku Posted November 30, 2011 Report Share Posted November 30, 2011 I'm curious as to why it would not work as such: Strike targets model. Ability checks if it is undead. Ability boosts the Strike. The ability to get + on Undead does not target the model. The Strike does, the Strike doesn't care if you are undead or otherwise in of itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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Zephir
Does Von Schill get to ignore hard to wound and gain a +flip vs models with the Superior Undead trait?
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