Biting Chill Weirdness

[Calmdown]

Figured I'd post this here for clarification and get it out of the Arcanist forum.

Here is how Biting Chill works, as far as I can see, within the letter of the rules:

Assuming a 4 Wd model.

Successfully cast Biting Chill

Trigger Overpower

Deal 2 Dg (meeting Overpower's "must deal Dg" condition)

Target takes 2 Wd (is now at 2 Wd)

Successfully cast Biting Chill

Trigger Overpower

Deal 2 Dg (meeting Overpower's "must deal Dg" condition)

Target takes 1 Wd (is now at 1 Wd)

Successfully cast Biting Chill

Trigger Overpower

Deal 2 Dg (meeting Overpower's "must deal Dg" condition)

Target takes 0 Wd (is now at 1 Wd)

Even once an enemy model is at 1 Wd, you still cast at it. Even if the model takes no Wd, you always deal 2 Dg regardless meaning you always trigger Overpower and hence keep casting the spell as long as you successfully flip to cast it.

I only post this because I know this is not how people play it; most people don't even cast it when the enemy is at 1 Wd (which is wrong in any case), but the fact that it always deals damage is overlooked, I think.

Can we get a Rules Marshal clarification on this please, and if this is incorrect, an explanation as to why/how it should work?

Cheers

[Headcase2]

You're right. You always trigger Overpower and a successful cast that isn't resisted always does 2 damage, so you always recast. But it's just pointless card flipping really, since nothing happens.

[nny]

You're right. You always trigger Overpower and a successful cast that isn't resisted always does 2 damage, so you always recast. But it's just pointless card flipping really, since nothing happens.

You shall flip till you fail

[Calmdown]

You're right. You always trigger Overpower and a successful cast that isn't resisted always does 2 damage, so you always recast. But it's just pointless card flipping really, since nothing happens.

The fact that she has Surge and December's Pawn says otherwise.

And card flipping is never pointless. It alters your deck, so you have to do it. Games can be won or lost on stuff like that. It's silly but true.

Edited November 1, 2011 by Calmdown

[Headcase2]

Surge is a trigger. Overpower is a trigger. You can only use one trigger...

[Q'iq'el]

Besides, triggers are not compulsory. The player is never forced to take them. So if it would be pointless to trigger Overpower, you don't have to.

[Calmdown]

Surge is a trigger. Overpower is a trigger. You can only use one trigger...

Sigh me. It's one of those mornings, evidently.

Besides' date=' triggers are not compulsory. The player is never forced to take them. So if it would be pointless to trigger Overpower, you don't have to.[/quote']

When they say "automatically triggers" they are compulsory, at least by my reading of it. In any case, it'd still be worth doing most of the time if you haven't seen the Black Joker yet.

[Q'iq'el]

When they say "automatically triggers" they are compulsory, at least by my reading of it. In any case, it'd still be worth doing most of the time if you haven't seen the Black Joker yet.

I think that'd go against the rules for Triggers and duels.

IMHO the meaning of the "automatically triggers" line is that the player may declare and trigger Overpower even if he doesn't have the required :masks in the Total.

[Calmdown]

I think that'd go against the rules for Triggers and duels.

IMHO the meaning of the "automatically triggers" line is that the player may declare and trigger Overpower even if he doesn't have the required :masks in the Total.

I dont disagree that it's unclear, but automatically triggers is definitely far further into the realms of "the spell chooses and activates the trigger for you" more than "automatically adds a mask to your casting total", I think.

One of those rules marshal-only questions really.

[Sholto]

I agree with Q'iq'el, Biting Chill does not seem to need much explanation. If it causes Dg it activates one of the model's Triggers automatically. It says nothing about overriding the general rule about "only one Trigger at a time", so in the absence of that you get the Overpower Trigger for free, but cannot get any other Trigger at the same time.

Yes, I agree you can keep casting it if you want to cycle your deck. Your opponent might get a bit annoyed, but there is nothing in the rules against it.

EDIT: I might walk that back a bit. You could always declare the Surge Trigger during the Casting Duel. If you then cause Dg as a result of the Casting Duel, you would "automatically trigger Overpower". The question is, does automatically triggering Overpower when you have already validly declared another Trigger arising from that Duel (Surge), allow you to have two triggers at once?

Edited November 1, 2011 by Sholto

[Calmdown]

I agree with Q'iq'el, Biting Chill does not seem to need much explanation. If it causes Dg it activates one of the model's Triggers automatically. It says nothing about overriding the general rule about "only one Trigger at a time", so in the absence of that you get the Overpower Trigger for free, but cannot get any other Trigger at the same time.

Yes, I agree you can keep casting it if you want to cycle your deck. Your opponent might get a bit annoyed, but there is nothing in the rules against it.

I think you misunderstand the discussion. We're talking about whether automatically means mandatory or not.

[Sholto]

I edited my post while you were replying - take a look.

[Calmdown]

I agree with Q'iq'el, Biting Chill does not seem to need much explanation. If it causes Dg it activates one of the model's Triggers automatically. It says nothing about overriding the general rule about "only one Trigger at a time", so in the absence of that you get the Overpower Trigger for free, but cannot get any other Trigger at the same time.

Yes, I agree you can keep casting it if you want to cycle your deck. Your opponent might get a bit annoyed, but there is nothing in the rules against it.

EDIT: I might walk that back a bit. You could always declare the Surge Trigger during the Casting Duel. If you then cause Dg as a result of the Casting Duel, you would "automatically trigger Overpower". The question is, does automatically triggering Overpower when you have already validly declared another Trigger arising from that Duel (Surge), allow you to have two triggers at once?

The earlier post about Surge was me being tired and stupid, but re-reading it now you mention it, you have a good point. Surge is declared and takes effect before damage happens and hence before the auto-overpower kicks in. In fact, when the auto-overpower kicks in, you're already past the point at which you'd normally have declared a trigger so it's already breaking order of effects. In which case, is auto-overpower really a trigger at all, or should it really read "counts as if you'd triggered overpower" rather than actually triggering overpower?

As I read it, there's nothing to stop you Surging as the Surge has no knowledge that you might be triggering an Overpower in the near future, but you could take it that if you choose to trigger Surge, the auto-overpower is no longer legal as you've already used your one trigger for this cast. Which I think is the most likely way it should work, since otherwise you could technically trigger Overpower twice if you cast on a mask and then we're in all sorts of trouble.

Interesting.

Edited November 1, 2011 by Calmdown

[Fading Memory]

EDIT: I might walk that back a bit. You could always declare the Surge Trigger during the Casting Duel. If you then cause Dg as a result of the Casting Duel, you would "automatically trigger Overpower". The question is, does automatically triggering Overpower when you have already validly declared another Trigger arising from that Duel (Surge), allow you to have two triggers at once?

If that is the case, Raspi can have some awesome hand Control and I need to paint her up so she can get some action.:cheer2:

[Lucidicide]

Isn't the wording on triggers one trigger per duel? If that's the case, your duel trigger is Surge. The fact that overpower goes off as a consequence of the spell is a secondary thing, and doesn't violate the one trigger per duel (as it is not a result of the duel).

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

Overpower automatically Triggers and you are only allowed one Trigger per Duel.

The Overpower is "mandatory" aka: MUST. And it will be the only Trigger that may be used. You may not Surge with Biting Chill.

[Stern]

this is how i assumed it went down... thanks for the clarification sketch

[Cats Laughing]

Overpower automatically Triggers and you are only allowed one Trigger per Duel.

The Overpower is "mandatory" aka: MUST. And it will be the only Trigger that may be used. You may not Surge with Biting Chill.

Because Rasputina really needed a cuddle?

I understand the reasoning and am not arguing against the ruling, just noting that this is actually a cuddle for Rasputina, as you're now forced to cycle through good cards while a Biting Chill target is at 1 wd, unless you can cheat down to fail the cast or flip something low.

It's not a huge cuddle, but it is one.

I also wonder how many other models are affected by an auto-trigger "Must" ruling?

[mpangelu]

How is it that your forced to cycle through "good" cards? Are you not just as likely to cycle through "bad" cards? Your cycling cards, neither good nor bad. And you could always cheat down a bad card to fail the cast? I'm not exactly sure how this is really a cuddle?

[magicpockets]

How is it that your forced to cycle through "good" cards? Are you not just as likely to cycle through "bad" cards?

No, because "bad cards" would fail to cast it. You'd only go through cards as long as you flipped cards high enough to cast it and beat your opponent. That means you only ever cycle through good cards until a bad card came up

[Mr_Smigs]

am I the only one who sees potential dickery in this?

after maneuvering into position with a couple flimsy models to hold objectives,

Marcus activates an Alphas Rasputina,

uses Biting Chill to blast a friendly model (all flips are now on the Marcus player's control... )

at which point he keeps choosing to tie the flips, and thus keeps successfully casting and overpowering, for 0 WD, until time is called... and walks away with the victory because the other player gets no other activations...

for that matter, a Raspy player could use it as a stall tactic...

[Akujie]

It has a pretty high cast to it, so its not like your gonna be burning a ton of cards from your deck.

[Mr_Smigs]

hmm... time to look... if you can squirrle up a + to all casting flips, or +3 CA somewhere.... it could be a viable way to just, pause, the game.....

[nerdelemental]

If you're playing a brawl....

....and you bring Rasputina and Marcus.....

....and this is your killer combo.....

....go right ahead.

I'll be on the other side with Pandora and the Dreamer and we'll talk afterward about your killer combos that stalled the game.

[Mr_Smigs]

I was thinking Marcus v Raspy....

or even just Raspy on her own...

'cause Alpha only works on an enemy beast IIRC.

[nerdelemental]

Heh.

Yeah. So, you're bringing Marcus against my Rasputina? Okay. Use your alpha on Rasputina.

Hell....do whatever you can against Rasputina. Marcus is the underdog in most matchups and he's not going to find an easy win against Rasputina.

Oh, and Smigs, I seem to say this to you often. Someone in your playgroup is a complete A-hole. Wanna stall the game out with some loophole? Good lord. I'd just look across the table at you until *I* got the amusement out of my system. Then we'd never need to play again. I don't play against A-holes like that. You seem to have a good number of players that apparently really game the system. Fortunately, I have fun when I play for fun. It strikes me that a lot of your games are more work than work.