M_Ruckuss Posted October 28, 2011 Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 (edited) Feel guilty using your fav (or ex-fav) mini? Sick of the "broken, filth etc" chants non-born players regulalry use? Want feel like you can play with Pandora again? Here is you're chance. Some of my opponents often ask how to beat her. I can give some answers but never feel like I have been helfpul enough. Most masters have obvious weaknesses to be played on. However some peope I have chatted with feel Pandora doesnt. I would like to use this thead to show she can be beaten and to disperse the myth. Karn [bows down] often point out just how good a minus flip is.... I am only good at mercs and neveborn, and dont have books to hand, but there MUST be was to hit her. Most people I have seen play her play around her WP shennigans with a single hard hitter who is usually a glass cannon. She doesnt have a samuel hopkins or judge to carry on the fight so she goes woman down. There must be models out there who can be used against her and stop players like myself feeling guilty about using her... Once through her wp-wp duel she is df 2, wd 8. (If anyone else has suggestions to add to this please post- I would actually like to enjoy playing her again...) Guild *Perdita- enough said- can kill her in a single activation if she has no sorrows/woes in base to base. *Lady J- Blind Justice, which makes it so your crew can just handle her. *Sonnia. Needs to be close for this so difficult but she has the same wp as Panda, so this is a straight up derby or best used once opponents control hand is low. Runed great sword will get a + flip on strikes, Charge to also get a plus on the damage (bearing in mind she is only Df 2!) and Panda can't cast spells for that turn (although she can still push using incite/pacify. If You managed a severe damage and Pandora has already activates, 0 action inferno an she i gone... *Judge has a wp only 1 point lower than Pandora, and can unleash 4 attacks if within 8 if he can flip/cheat to masks. He may lose wounds, but with critical strike this could do well against her. *Models such as Abuela and papa loco have blast weapons which can hurt her easily. Papa Loco- SO unlikely to get near her but "Take ya with me" can cause some serious pain. *Witchlings- Disrupt magic can hamper her spells (again beware of incite/pacify). Arcanists *Rasputina- can lay down an obscence amount of blasts and the 4 damage she can deal on the blasts along with a shattering crew. Particulalry effctive with essence of power and silent ones. *Marcus- just goes with a fast crew and ignores her and kills her minions when he can and uses his plus wp abilities. Ramos can blow his own stuff up and the electrical creation is great. Resses *Doggies-A long shot but do lower her willpower *Nicodem can use fog to block line of sight and summon to swamp her. Think he also has a blast attack. Crooked men and rogue necromancy also have blast attacks. *Molly-Keep summoning Necrotic machine to try and sacrifice and kill her. You may eat machines, but you can summon more and you only need to do it once! *Sebastion has a pulse aura. As he is not specifically targeting Pandora he is not required to make a wp-wp duel. *Seamus- Trail of Fear Neverborn Z has wp 10 and cast 7. Cast crytal ball, fix the cards to an order which suits you, then cast the spell which prevents target from playing control cards before hitting her in melee. Bit of a gamble but a mid or big hitter (especially if charges/has paired) can eat her. Outcasts/Mercs/Gremlins *Jack Daw- Can be used to remove her cheat option. e.g. activate him first and plonk him in combat with Pandora. If you win first initiative you can bang up no cheating, and you can keep a high card to try and win the incite/pacify duel. *Viks-Can one shot her if they get through-have two of them so keep trying! *Pigapult- Wp 10 indirect fire with blasts... *Levi -Levi and the Waifs have high WP, which has an obvious advantage. Also, if you can get a SPA within range of Panda, then their corrosive auras can give her hard time as it doesn't need to target her. Df 9 flips. (Combine with Jack Daw to bring the pain!) *Gremlins-Many Blasts but awful willpower General tactics include: 1)Blasting on linked/near models is also a great way to deal with her- Panda no like Rasputina for e.g. 2)Force her to eat her control hand-if she can't cheat her wp duel her defensive abilities lessen. 3)As others have said use LofS. Models such as Nicodem, Stitched, Krooligans and Sonnia can all summon terrain features (for a turn at least) which can help negate some of her abilities. Ice pillars from Tina an a terrain heavy board can also cause problems. Tips from Mike 3838: For the first turn or two, try and keep your whole crew out of her LOS. Pandora is very slow unless she can do WP duels to push around the table. If she can't see anyone, she's got a long walk ahead of her (I'm ignoring using Poltergeist to cast Dementia on Pandora - if your opponent is doing that then they're cheating imho). A general rule is to leave Pandora alone unless your strategies and schemes dictate otherwise. Thin out her minions who will be easier targets. Prioritise things that cause you to take lots of WP duels like Stitched, Lilitu etc. If you must go for Pandora herself, one way to really screw her is to try to break her Incite/Pacify chain at the right time. The Pandora player will have a destination in mind and wants to get 4" pushes from a series of models in order to reach where she wants to be. If you wait til she pushes somewhere exposed and then cheat as high as possible on the WP resist, you can often stop her in her tracks in a vulnerable position. It doesn't always work, but if you pull it off then you've dropped a big spanner in the works of your opponents plan for the turn, and set her up for a potential beating. If the Pandora player *really* doesnt wanna be stranded there they'll likely be Soulstoning that duel, but at least that's one less Soulstone being used to boost her casts and trigger Mental Anguish. Some crews could try casting Obey or Lure on Sorrows to get them out of base to base before nailing her with something nasty. Terrifying can work well if you can put several Terrifying models near to her before her activation. She'll have to test for each one and there's always a chance she'll fail and leg it. Stand Jack Daw nearby too, and that chance becomes almost certainty. will continue this when have time...comments welome. Will use 1st page to summarise ideas Edited November 13, 2011 by McDoogle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mentat_Canis Posted October 28, 2011 Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 I stuggle for this for a bit of time till I figured out how to deal with her. She is still very powerful and probably in my top 3 master(personal opinion). There are ways for most crews to get around it. Guild. Perdita is well the best example of how to paste her. Lady J has blind Justice which makes it so your crew can just handle her. Sonnia has Pyre in avatar and can stop spells which is what really does hurt her and has blasts. The Hoff has a rough time vs her but is able to detonate scrap. Arcanists. Raspy is best at this because of the amount of blasts and the 4 damage she can deal on the blasts along with a shattering crew. Colette has a decent hard time and has to have Cassy do the heavy lifting but what else is new just go for her crew and your objectives. Marcus just goes with a fast crew and ignores her and kills her minions when he can and uses his plus wp abilities. Ramos can blow his own stuff up and the electrical creation is great. Ressors. Nico fog and blasts that heal his own and just throws enough bodies that you will win some wp duels eventually. Same strat with spirits just send enough attacks. Other two I don't know as I don't play ressors. Neverborn this is tricky because lilith is not a good matchup I go with the ignore her go after the crew send lilith into her and try and out soulstone to get through the wp -> wp dual. Z has wp 10 but I think Hex is non master or you would just hex it away. Dreamer I believe you can terrify her its not easy but it is doable and that is a game changer. Outcasts I go with the Viks you just try and win the wp->wp dual once and you can oneshot her. I don't play the other outcasts so I can't help there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sliver Chocobo Posted October 28, 2011 Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 Tuco can put blast on her, also taint loyalty on the woes around her and try and :crows trigger so she can't push damage on them, also remove friendly from the sorrows and Panda lose Wd from lose Wp duels Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Ruckuss Posted October 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2011 Thanks for the reply Mentat_cnis- some excellent ideas! Couple of quick questions to check: *Sebastion has a pulse aura. As he is not specifically targeting Pandora, will he have o make a wp-wp duel...? *Mcmourning has a healing flip that can deal damage-will this trigger her defensive capabilities? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 Sorry, no offense intended, but he tactics posted assume that the Pandora player is either a) Stupid Drunk c) Plain bad at the game For example - why is a Pandora player going to drop a model in LoS of Raspy/mirror, in range of Pandora, so that you can nuke off of it? He isn't, if he's any good. A tactic isn't a tactic if it relies on the opponent making a mistake for it to work. The only tactic here that is valid is running Perdita as she smooshes Pandora dead. Everything else is not particularly Pandora specific. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike3838 Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 I play Pandora, so I'll try to give a few tips. For the first turn or two, try and keep your whole crew out of her LOS. Pandora is very slow unless she can do WP duels to push around the table. If she can't see anyone, she's got a long walk ahead of her (I'm ignoring using Poltergeist to cast Dementia on Pandora - if your opponent is doing that then they're cheating imho). A general rule is to leave Pandora alone unless your strategies and schemes dictate otherwise. Thin out her minions who will be easier targets. Prioritise things that cause you to take lots of WP duels like Stitched, Lilitu etc. If you must go for Pandora herself, one way to really screw her is to try to break her Incite/Pacify chain at the right time. The Pandora player will have a destination in mind and wants to get 4" pushes from a series of models in order to reach where she wants to be. If you wait til she pushes somewhere exposed and then cheat as high as possible on the WP resist, you can often stop her in her tracks in a vulnerable position. It doesn't always work, but if you pull it off then you've dropped a big spanner in the works of your opponents plan for the turn, and set her up for a potential beating. If the Pandora player *really* doesnt wanna be stranded there they'll likely be Soulstoning that duel, but at least that's one less Soulstone being used to boost her casts and trigger Mental Anguish. Some crews could try casting Obey or Lure on Sorrows to get them out of base to base before nailing her with something nasty. Terrifying can work well if you can put several Terrifying models near to her before her activation. She'll have to test for each one and there's always a chance she'll fail and leg it. Stand Jack Daw nearby too, and that chance becomes almost certainty. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike3838 Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 *Sebastion has a pulse aura. As he is not specifically targeting Pandora, will he have o make a wp-wp duel...? *Mcmourning has a healing flip that can deal damage-will this trigger her defensive capabilities? You only WP duel Pandora if your target her, so Sebastian's Bloody Harvest can damage her bypassing her defenses, but McMourning's Master Surgeon still has to duel her. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 And Rats, All you need is one lowly Malifaux Rat. Isn that right Mike? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KirigakurenoHaku Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 Pandora is a master that, while powerful, relies heavily on her minions. If you deprive her of her minions then she falls apart. Her only defenses are her high will power and her ability to disable a model targeting her, and once her woes are gone you do not need to worry so much when you do choose to target her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zwergenkrieger Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 Somers mosquitos do wonders against Pandora too. I was on the recieving end last tournament. ZK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KirigakurenoHaku Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 Somers mosquitos do wonders against Pandora too. I was on the recieving end last tournament. ZK Those mosquitoes do a number on anyone who likes having a control hand. (I hate those things so much...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonedog-7 Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 I believe, though someone feel free to contradict me please as i play pandora, that Ryles Breach Psychosis allows him to ignore the WP->WP duel to target Pandora and her Box Opens doesn't strip that part of it... with his ability to generate extra shots and her low def that makes him a shoe-in for guild players Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 Pandora is a master that, while powerful, relies heavily on her minions. If you deprive her of her minions then she falls apart. Her only defenses are her high will power and her ability to disable a model targeting her, and once her woes are gone you do not need to worry so much when you do choose to target her. I get your point but I wouldn't say she falls apart. Used right her spells and triggers can win her a game single handedly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darios Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 I get your point but I wouldn't say she falls apart. Used right her spells and triggers can win her a game single handedly. second that. I already did that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sliver Chocobo Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 What about the pigapult it has Wp 10 and 24 ranged attack with :blasts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike3838 Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 I believe, though someone feel free to contradict me please as i play pandora, that Ryles Breach Psychosis allows him to ignore the WP->WP duel to target Pandora and her Box Opens doesn't strip that part of it... with his ability to generate extra shots and her low def that makes him a shoe-in for guild players If Ryle shoots from outside of Pandora's 12" aura then Breach Psychosis will let him ignore the WP duel to target her. Inside the Box Opens though, he loses Breach Psychosis and has to duel her just like everyone else Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magicpockets Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 (edited) If Ryle shoots from outside of Pandora's 12" aura then Breach Psychosis will let him ignore the WP duel to target her. Inside the Box Opens though, he loses Breach Psychosis and has to duel her just like everyone else Mike If Ryle "ignores" wp duels, he doesn't have an "immunity" therefore the box opens has no effect on him. Two different game terms. Disclaimer: I'm going off envy one saying Ryle "ignores" (which I think is right), if his ability says "immune" Mike is right Edited October 29, 2011 by magicpockets Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Undisclosed Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 It says 'Immune' in my book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akujie Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 Ryle also has a beefy melee and a very low WP that makes him very killable by Pandora, not my first choice. Perdita is great of course because she can very realisticly one round pandora and has the WP to go toe to toe with all those WP duels Pandy throws out. Sonnia's counterspell is amazing for some crucial Pandy shut down, she can turn all those squishy sorrows into Witchlings with minimal effort, and the negative flips to casting just compounds on Pandora's plight, you might not kill pandy, but she will have as much issue killing you. The Lady J gun line against pandy is great as well, most NB crews have melee beat sticks that Lady J trounces with Riposte action. and Austigers can outrange Pandy, and even if LJ doesn't put up blind aura, their 7 WP can still land you some hits. As calmdown said, hard to through theorfuax around in all the situations, you take X and pandy could counter with X. Don't think she is broken at all though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpangelu Posted October 29, 2011 Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 I play Pandora, so I'll try to give a few tips. For the first turn or two, try and keep your whole crew out of her LOS. Pandora is very slow unless she can do WP duels to push around the table. If she can't see anyone, she's got a long walk ahead of her (I'm ignoring using Poltergeist to cast Dementia on Pandora - if your opponent is doing that then they're cheating imho). A general rule is to leave Pandora alone unless your strategies and schemes dictate otherwise. Thin out her minions who will be easier targets. Prioritise things that cause you to take lots of WP duels like Stitched, Lilitu etc. If you must go for Pandora herself, one way to really screw her is to try to break her Incite/Pacify chain at the right time. The Pandora player will have a destination in mind and wants to get 4" pushes from a series of models in order to reach where she wants to be. If you wait til she pushes somewhere exposed and then cheat as high as possible on the WP resist, you can often stop her in her tracks in a vulnerable position. It doesn't always work, but if you pull it off then you've dropped a big spanner in the works of your opponents plan for the turn, and set her up for a potential beating. If the Pandora player *really* doesnt wanna be stranded there they'll likely be Soulstoning that duel, but at least that's one less Soulstone being used to boost her casts and trigger Mental Anguish. Some crews could try casting Obey or Lure on Sorrows to get them out of base to base before nailing her with something nasty. Terrifying can work well if you can put several Terrifying models near to her before her activation. She'll have to test for each one and there's always a chance she'll fail and leg it. Stand Jack Daw nearby too, and that chance becomes almost certainty. Mike I've been told her Incite/Pacify do not require LOS as they only say Enemy Model within 12" ... Thefore do not require direct los as long as it is just in that range. As this has messed me up before heavily. Also even after the incite pacify rantics Pandora still has up to 3 spells to cast to get away 12" not including if her minions cast against her. Its very hard to get her bogged down into one spot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Ruckuss Posted October 29, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 Sorry, no offense intended, but he tactics posted assume that the Pandora player is either a) Stupid Drunk c) Plain bad at the game No offence taken. Sure Perdita is the only guaranteed to kill her-the rest are just pointing out possibilities. It has nothing to do with stupidy or drunkeness. Malifaux is a situational game, and I am merely trying to point out that some models can be used more effectively than others against her. Rather than continually use a model others view as broken or whinge about how broken she is, I am just trying to be constructive, as most others who have posted can clearly see. Its more about chatting about ideas to help those struggling to play her. I'm not trying to write a tactica to beat her, merely compile the experiences of players to give hints and tips. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Ruckuss Posted October 29, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 You only WP duel Pandora if your target her, so Sebastian's Bloody Harvest can damage her bypassing her defenses, but McMourning's Master Surgeon still has to duel her. Mike Thanks for the reply, will update on top post.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Ruckuss Posted October 29, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 I play Pandora, so I'll try to give a few tips. For the first turn or two, try and keep your whole crew out of her LOS. Pandora is very slow unless she can do WP duels to push around the table. If she can't see anyone, she's got a long walk ahead of her (I'm ignoring using Poltergeist to cast Dementia on Pandora - if your opponent is doing that then they're cheating imho). A general rule is to leave Pandora alone unless your strategies and schemes dictate otherwise. Thin out her minions who will be easier targets. Prioritise things that cause you to take lots of WP duels like Stitched, Lilitu etc. If you must go for Pandora herself, one way to really screw her is to try to break her Incite/Pacify chain at the right time. The Pandora player will have a destination in mind and wants to get 4" pushes from a series of models in order to reach where she wants to be. If you wait til she pushes somewhere exposed and then cheat as high as possible on the WP resist, you can often stop her in her tracks in a vulnerable position. It doesn't always work, but if you pull it off then you've dropped a big spanner in the works of your opponents plan for the turn, and set her up for a potential beating. If the Pandora player *really* doesnt wanna be stranded there they'll likely be Soulstoning that duel, but at least that's one less Soulstone being used to boost her casts and trigger Mental Anguish. Some crews could try casting Obey or Lure on Sorrows to get them out of base to base before nailing her with something nasty. Terrifying can work well if you can put several Terrifying models near to her before her activation. She'll have to test for each one and there's always a chance she'll fail and leg it. Stand Jack Daw nearby too, and that chance becomes almost certainty. Mike Some great tips- I will add them to the top post. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Ruckuss Posted October 29, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 Somers mosquitos do wonders against Pandora too. I was on the recieving end last tournament. ZK Could you elaborate so I can include this above....? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Ruckuss Posted October 29, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2011 What about the pigapult it has Wp 10 and 24 ranged attack with :blasts I like this one- going up top! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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