Dreamer Change thought

[Adran]

My opinions.

1 Letting the dust settle is always a good idea. Just because trhere have been a couple of minor changes (and that is how I view the Alp and Nekima changes) now is not the time to focus on the next bad thing because "they are in a mood to make changes".

2 The recent changes don't make a huge difference to most Dreamer lists. Unless you were planning on using the Alps as your only damage dealer, then your list is probably still viable with almost exactly the same tactics.

3 None of the suggestions has stopped the Dreamer deploying his entire crew. At most the suggestions have called for a greater investment than a single 3:masks to be able to do so. This might be further cards, or action points expended. Saying any of the suggestions completly ruins the dreamer is probably an extreme. (If I'm wrong and that change would completly ruin the way you play the dreamer, sorry, but there are many ways of playing him that this doesn't stop and I can't think of any that it would stop).

Yes a change would mean that he can't do exactly what he does now. This may annoy you, but it doesn't make him unplayable.

When I face the dreamer he seems to only have fewer activations than me if he chooses that. If I play a Viktoria crew I will almost certainly have fewer models than my opponennt, even if I have no cache. I get no choice in the matter.

I disagree with Calmdowns manner, I do agree with his view.

Maybe the dreamer players I face are stupid, (I doubt this) maybe I'm the greatest tactictian in the would (I seriously doubt this), but I worked out how to face an alp bomb, and whilst it would hurt, I would normally end up on the positive side of the balence sheet. When people are saying that these changes have hurt the dreamer, or that he is now balenced because of these changes, I do have to wonder if we are playing the same game.

Groupthink is a powerful force in gaming. And its one which does not translate well on the internet, especially in a game like Malifaux with all the senarios and placement and terrain differences. I know no-one locally can get a Ramos crew to be competative, but I have also heard plenty of stories of other people who have managed. I don't know what the difference is between what we've tried and what they do, I just know there must be one.

Wyrd have shown that they moniter this sort of thing. They make changes when they think it is required. They also show a good level of consideration to their customers, and all the changes I have seen have been of them trying to make sure the model still does what they intended. Should they make any changes to the dreamer, I would imagine there would be plenty of consideration into his mechanics, and He will still be designed to be able to start the game with just a little boy on the table.

he might not be able to then put his entire force in the opponents deployment zone, but I don't think that is a fundimental part of the intent for the dreamer.

[Nephalumps]

Also, for how terribly nasty the Dreamer can be, lets be real here: he's not the only Master who came out of Book 2 that can "roflstomp" his opposition.

Kirai and Colette both have very, very strong crews, due to their inherent abilities and the synergy they have with their models. The Dreamer is very similar in that regard, though he has the most powerful movement shenanigan out of the three and his crew is most capable of huge damage output.

I think that's the reason people are crowing about him louder than his cohorts - getting flattened off the table turn 1/2 is much worse than being slowly rolled by spirits, or having all the objectives on the table stolen from you at the end of the game by pixies - but The Dreamer isn't the only Master to come out of Book 2 that is ugly to fight against.

As others have said, The Dreamer may or may not need attention; that's something that time needs to shake out over time as more models and tactics become available. However, if it turns out that The Dreamer does need a little balance tweaking, its worth bearing in mind that there are other Masters that may need some time in the spotlight, lest we trade one devil for another.

[Lucidicide]

I like how the discussion is going. There seems to be at least some feeling out there that the Dreamer himself is broken and many of the models he uses are broken. For the purposes of this discussion, I suggest we largely ignore any imbalances that may (or may not) exist in the crew.

So looking at the Dreamer, is the main problem the distance he can move or that he can move so far with his entire crew without them activating? If you can't tell by my choice of language, I would say that any problem with the Dreamer is the latter.

The reasoning for this is that there are many highly mobile crews. However, these crews tend to take up a lot of their time moving, and thus aren't able to fully engage in the end. For example, if the Dreamer could enter your deployment zone turn 1 and attack with LCB, would that be a problem if 1) he was alone and 2) he couldn't teleport away?

As I said, I don't think the real problem is limiting how much the Dreamer can move. In fact, I think it's really awesome how far he can move, and opens up a lot of great game possibilities for a Dreamer player. However, when he can move like that and still, as a master (LCB), put out the hurt AND drop off his crew, this is where it becomes a problem.

In the past, I have suggested a card discarding requirement for dropping off models beyond, say, 2. This would mean you'd barely hurt the Dreamer's ability to drop off (as it wouldn't change the low mask requirement and your hand of 6 cards would allow you to drop 6 nightmares), but, if he decided to do it, it would cost him his hand for the turn. I know this has been met with some hostility as it essentially nerfs the bomb... but isn't that what we want? The Dreamer to do what he can already do, but make it a bit less powerful?

Besides this, another possibility (that I don't really like, but is worth mentioning) is making the Unbury of the Dreamer like a summon so the models all receive Slow.

Like I said, I think it's important that all the mechanics remain and that the Dreamer doesn't change in any significant way. The important thing would just be to tone down what can be accomplished once he does his thing.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I like in concept how far he can move, but as I've said repeatedly extreme speed is one of the most powerful abilities in the game, and is what makes Kirai, Colette, and the Dreamer as powerful as they are.

Speed gives you extra time in the game and more flexibility. I know that the game isn't designed to be balanced faction to faction but if you look at the masters that are generally considered to be less competitive: Ramos, Rasputina, Nicodem, etc... you see that the unifying factor is that their masters and or crews are all slow. If you are slow it means that from turn one every single action you take is even more precious because it is going to take you longer to get to whatever you need to go if it is a terrain based objective, and possibly even longer if you need to catch-up to something else that is moving, particularly if it is fast.

Now a good number of the models in the game that are cheap and fast are also fairly non lethal. Most have combat scores that are 4 or less, and their dmg lines are pretty much like being hit by a wet paper bag. Combine speed and lethality ... pretty much like the NB in general, Kirai, Von Schill, some versions of Colette, and you get the power crews. It is because of their speed they are granted more time in game than their opponent. They can spend 4-5 turns of the game interacting with their opponent before making a last dash for their objective in the last two turns, or they can pop to their objectives and get them done early and then spend the rest of the game directly attempting to prevent you from getting any of yours.

So while I do like, intellectually, the Dreamer's speed, I'm not certain that an crew that has the ability to move over the entire board in one turn is good for the game, especially since the only downside to some of the nightmares was their lower walk rate then the average NB minion.

I do however agree with Karn and the others who said this needs to be looked at carefully. I personally think the Dreamer NEEDS to be changed, but I'm not even certain that my suggestions either go far enough, or go too far, and so any change to him needs to be carefully considered so that he isn't made un-usable. Frankly I think if the game is supposed to be balanced faction to faction, that having masters in any faction that are good at everything is a bad design decision because it pretty much encourages the use of only specific masters. Either you ned to balance it master to master, or you need to make certain that ALL masters are very weak at certain things.

[sephiroa]

I'm oke with the dreamer, he can be dealth with, and I agree with kinda everybody here that Chompy is the problem, not the dreamer, the fact that he can zip into combat, kill some models and zip back out of combat, is a bit harsh,

the alp bomb cuddle was a good move, this is how Wyrds shows that they indeed listen to us,

and to talk about kirai, kirai indeed can use the same trick, zip a spirit back out of combat. but at least you have the change of trying to deal some damage, with the dreamer, almost impossible,,

its a strong move, but I never played against a very competitive player who uses the dreamer, so i won't now how heavy that trick is,

but if the main zipping thingy are some daydreams, some fast crews (collette, kirai, lilith) can't they deal with them? or some shooty crews?

[karn987]

I'm oke with the dreamer, he can be dealth with, and I agree with kinda everybody here that Chompy is the problem, not the dreamer, the fact that he can zip into combat, kill some models and zip back out of combat, is a bit harsh,

the alp bomb cuddle was a good move, this is how Wyrds shows that they indeed listen to us,

and to talk about kirai, kirai indeed can use the same trick, zip a spirit back out of combat. but at least you have the change of trying to deal some damage, with the dreamer, almost impossible,,

its a strong move, but I never played against a very competitive player who uses the dreamer, so i won't now how heavy that trick is,

but if the main zipping thingy are some daydreams, some fast crews (collette, kirai, lilith) can't they deal with them? or some shooty crews?

Not to stop the first turn strike. Check out the Wiki entry on Dreamer, look at the Full Speed Ahead section, it breaks it down.

It's all done through Companion and the recent change to Companion enabled you to do the return of LCB to your deployment zone in the same activation where before you had 1 activation to try and get him. Even that though was generally not enough unless you had a combat focused Master or a powerful Companion Chain. You could hurt him, but killing him was very rare.

So if LCB poping in and out on the same turn is a problem, how would you fix it? What would be the ripples of say banning him from burying the same turn he is unburied?

For starters it slows him down a good bit, about 6" + wiggle from the base stuff. Second, it exposes the big weakness that LCB and all the Nightmare's share, fragility. His Low Df is going to leave him swinging in the wind even with Use SS to protect himself. But really, is that a bad thing? Is this ok? How far does this rabbit hole really go when you start looking into this... it has to be carefully broken down.

[Lucidicide]

What if Frightening Dream was once per activation phase per crew? This would definitely limit the movement distance. If you want to use a Daydream to move yourself forward, then you can't unbury, bury, and then later unbury with the Dreamer again.

I feel this would get rid of some of the shenanigans. The Dreamer could still unbury his entire crew far away from where he began, but not quite as far...

[Alviaran]

Let me ask this, a big part of the problem from my reading seems to be the way it can not be reacted to since he activates immediately after being unburied (not to mention the companion bit). What if there was a change to One Master that allowed him to activate only when brought out via the Dreamers (0) ability? Otherwise, he activates as any other model that has entered play: when the oppurtunity presents itself. And if Companion didn't carry over from Dreamer to LCB when he unburies (ie, to companion with him he must already be in play), could this keep his mobility up while taking out some of the more ridiculous alpha strikes he is capable of?

And by that, I mean the ones where you activate a whole bunch of stuff and your opponent can just sit and watch as you tromp all over his face. Giving that one activation that Chompy has now made it up field and is sitting out in the open would change things by making the alpha strike incredibly risky. As it is now, the entire alpha strike seems really without any risk at all from my reading which seems to be the problem, player interaction.

[sephiroa]

Not to stop the first turn strike. Check out the Wiki entry on Dreamer, look at the Full Speed Ahead section, it breaks it down.

It's all done through Companion and the recent change to Companion enabled you to do the return of LCB to your deployment zone in the same activation where before you had 1 activation to try and get him. Even that though was generally not enough unless you had a combat focused Master or a powerful Companion Chain. You could hurt him, but killing him was very rare.

I know that, to bad, there is nothing you can do atm to prevent that, i can take his chompy throw him through the window and kill him with the lightning coming from my eyes, because its a nasty move, and very cheesy

So if LCB poping in and out on the same turn is a problem, how would you fix it? What would be the ripples of say banning him from burying the same turn he is unburied?

For starters it slows him down a good bit, about 6" + wiggle from the base stuff. Second, it exposes the big weakness that LCB and all the Nightmare's share, fragility. His Low Df is going to leave him swinging in the wind even with Use SS to protect himself. But really, is that a bad thing? Is this ok? How far does this rabbit hole really go when you start looking into this... it has to be carefully broken down.

well,, ther are several things i could say, first, you cannot bury a nightmare when you unburried it this turn

second, chompy cannot be unburried with the frightning dreams spell to prevent a big ss cache. remove master of dreams and give him a cache of 2.

change the all my friends (1+ ) 1 for every :masks or so

these are small changes, but the zipping will be gone

[Hatchethead]

I don't mind that Chompy has a turn 1 threat range of 38" or whatever bananas number it happens to be. I don't even mind that he can dump his whole crew on my doorstep. My issue is that he can jump in and out of combat with total control of his placement and almost zero fear of retaliation.

If he wants to blow his load jumping into my deployment zone on turn 1, okay, fine ... but at that point he should have to stand there and take it like a man. He has the ability to launch surgical strikes into my crew. I can accept that, but the Dreamer player should have to choose between keeping LCB safe from harm OR tossing him into melee with (and likely killing) the model of his choice. Being able to do both with relative ease is a tad OTT.

[Lucidicide]

It is possible that just saying that a model cannot be buried on the turn it was unburied would help (I assume this would have to be put into the Nightmare's cards, as you wouldn't want it to effect other crews). It would limit the threat range and force LCB to stay around for a bit if you go for dropping him on top of the enemy.

[pgbsamurai]

What about changing LCB to have a line that reads, "When this model is unburied it MUST be placed in B2B with the Dreamer, before the Dreamer is removed from play." Have similar language for the Dreamer. This still gives LCB and the Dreamer plenty of movement in a turn (18" I think) without having the insane board crossing movement he has now. It doesn't completely change his mechanics, it just stops him from getting all the way into the opponent's deployment zone, eating face, and dropping off his friends. Since it has to be in B2B it also stops the easy retreat.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I tend to find rules wide changes to be less beneficial than card specific changes. Case in point when people wanted to change lure because of the FILTH list I was against it because too many other models would be affected as well. I'm still also upset about the Change to Graverobber and not to Scavenger when it was because of one interaction that all graverobbers lost one of their abilities.

I know you stated putting on Nightmare cards, but I think it would make the game as a whole a little more clunky to have an entire subtype that bury works differently on. I think the fixes need to be done on the Daydreams, because before they came out from what I read the people who used the Dreamer without them were still strong, but not to the level he is currently used. I could be wrong, but that's what I remember. I'm not advocating for the Daydream's removal, but I think a targeted change at them would be the most effective at toning down The Dreamer/Chompy.

[Lucidicide]

I know you stated putting on Nightmare cards, but I think it would make the game as a whole a little more clunky to have an entire subtype that bury works differently on. I think the fixes need to be done on the Daydreams, because before they came out from what I read the people who used the Dreamer without them were still strong, but not to the level he is currently used. I could be wrong, but that's what I remember. I'm not advocating for the Daydream's removal, but I think a targeted change at them would be the most effective at toning down The Dreamer/Chompy.

Well, it would be a big (and confusing) change, so I'm not sure I would advocate for it... but we already have a few examples of Masters sharing AP (Dreamer/LCB & aColette). What if something similar happened with Daydreams as happens with aColette? Any given spell that one Daydream casts cannot be cast by another Daydream on the same turn.

This would prevent the fast LCB pullback, leaving intact the range, etc. I'm just thinking that borrowing a bit from the Dreamer's mechanic of sharing AP could be interesting on the Daydreams... and yet it is clunky and might not truly address the issue.

I also do like the potential solution of making it so you can't companion to the Dreamer and have that carry over to LCB when he pops out. If you companion to one of the models (Dreamer or LCB) and that model becomes buried, companion becomes broken.

It would certainly slow down the bomb without actually changing it or stopping it.

[sephiroa]

I tend to find rules wide changes to be less beneficial than card specific changes. Case in point when people wanted to change lure because of the FILTH list I was against it because too many other models would be affected as well. I'm still also upset about the Change to Graverobber and not to Scavenger when it was because of one interaction that all graverobbers lost one of their abilities.

I know you stated putting on Nightmare cards, but I think it would make the game as a whole a little more clunky to have an entire subtype that bury works differently on. I think the fixes need to be done on the Daydreams, because before they came out from what I read the people who used the Dreamer without them were still strong, but not to the level he is currently used. I could be wrong, but that's what I remember. I'm not advocating for the Daydream's removal, but I think a targeted change at them would be the most effective at toning down The Dreamer/Chompy.

true, true,,

so the problem is chompy,, zipping in and out of combat,, combined with daydreams, well the thing i woud say is,

the master of dreams stays, but change the daydreams, dreamer can have a max of 3 BUT can HIRE only 1

[Alviaran]

Random aside, Strumpet, but what was the Graverobber change?

[Fetid Strumpet]

He can still hit your deployment Zone on turn one, still kill something with chompy, and sure he wouldn't certainly pop back to his deployment zone, but the Dreamer staying in your zone completely surrounded Nightmares isn't going to be much better. Maybe I'm the only one, but I really feel being able to get an entire crew full of Melee monsters into the opponent's deployment zone turn 1 is very ridiculous and shouldn't be a part of the game.

As Karn has said in the past, controlling the tempo of the game is a critical thing, and forcing an opponent to react to you is exceptionally powerful. Very few crews can currently even hope to force the Dreamer to play their game and the best thing they can do, especially because of the First turn strike ability, is react to him.

Like I said that level of movement for an entire crew and forcing them to react to you isn't good for the game I feel. If there were a way to completely just get rid of the Dreamer Shuffle nonsense I feel might just do the trick.

Pgb's suggestion I think might have merit and I'd love to test it at some point.

EDIT @ Alvian.

Graverobbers used to be able to take an (All) action to gain one corpse counter, just as Scavengers can still take an (All) action to gain a scrap counter. The issue came about because lists started showing up that had Nicodem and 10+ Canine Remains in them.

Turn one each dog would take an (All) action to gain a counter, Nicodem would then go and raise 10+ Mindless Zombies a turn.

Granted taking an (All) action for a counter isn't game breaking one way or the other, but I really feel it would have been better to fix that one interaction rather than taking the ability from ALL Graverobbers.

Edited October 12, 2011 by Fetid Strumpet

[sephiroa]

Graverobbers used to be able to take an (All) action to gain one corpse counter, just as Scavengers can still take an (All) action to gain a scrap counter. The issue came about because lists started showing up that had Nicodem and 10+ Canine Remains in them.

Turn one each dog would take an (All) action to gain a counter, Nicodem would then go and raise 10+ Mindless Zombies a turn.

Granted taking an (All) action for a counter isn't game breaking one way or the other, but I really feel it would have been better to fix that one interaction rather than taking the ability from ALL Graverobbers.

really? turn 3 manifest with 20 mindless zombies and 10 canines? kinda game breaking don't you think

but i agree, just taking it away wasn't the best idee,, (they ARE graverobbers,,)

but to get back OT.

i agree that the problem is with the bumping them,, i don't use flurry often,, but imagine on a 35 ss, 3 teddies and chompy in the middle of your crew? and the teddies start flurrying on the master, or other beatsticks,,, i don't think that any crew can survive something like that.

leave the all my friends trigger, but like pgb said, change to base2base

[011121]

I think there's a very simple change you could make to the dreamer that would reign in the worst aspects while not changing playstyle-

only allow him to start with 1 daydream (but he can still summon more as normal). This prevents all the first turn "Hi on my first activation I'm in your deployment zone killing you and now I'm back in mine!" stuff that's pretty ridiculous. It makes him start a bit slower but he can build up to the full craziness with an investment of ss and time. That's perfectly reasonable. There are any several other masters who get crazy good if left unmolested to do their own thing.

[sephiroa]

I think there's a very simple change you could make to the dreamer that would reign in the worst aspects while not changing playstyle-

only allow him to start with 1 daydream (but he can still summon more as normal). This prevents all the first turn "Hi on my first activation I'm in your deployment zone killing you and now I'm back in mine!" stuff that's pretty ridiculous. It makes him start a bit slower but he can build up to the full craziness with an investment of ss and time. That's perfectly reasonable. There are any several other masters who get crazy good if left unmolested to do their own thing.

wasn't that the same thing i suggested

[Fetid Strumpet]

That doesn't stop the first turn strike though, and personally that is the worst bit for me, the fact that he can pop back to his Deployment zone after it is just icing on the cake, and not the problem as far as I'm concerned.

[Lucidicide]

Only being able to cast Calm Nightmares or Frightening Dream once per turn per player would stop the bomb. And limit LCB's teleportation.

[011121]

wasn't that the same thing i suggested

Uh...sure? I didn't read the whole thread.

That doesn't stop the first turn strike though, and personally that is the worst bit for me, the fact that he can pop back to his Deployment zone after it is just icing on the cake, and not the problem as far as I'm concerned.

How are you going to get across the table first turn with only a single daydream?

[Lucidicide]

Uh...sure? I didn't read the whole thread.

How are you going to get across the table first turn with only a single daydream?

From http://pullmyfinger.wikispaces.com/The+Dreamer and edited slightly for clarity.

1. Activate Daydream #1 (DD1) and move forward. [+6"]

DD1 then unburies LCB with Magical Extensioned Frightening Dream [+6"]

DD1 then turns LCB back into the Dreamer with Calm Nightmares

2. Dreamer Activates due to Companion

Dreamer uses I Can Fly and Walks once. [+7"]

Dreamer casts Frightening Dream (looking for the All My Friend trigger) and unburies LCB [+6"]

3. Lord Chompy Bits then Activates due to One Master

LCB Walks forward. [+4"]

LCB then attacks using his Melee Expert (look for Onslaught Trigger). [+1" or +3"]

[011121]

From http://pullmyfinger.wikispaces.com/The+Dreamer and edited slightly for clarity.

1. Activate Daydream #1 (DD1) and move forward. [+6"]

DD1 then unburies LCB with Magical Extensioned Frightening Dream [+6"]

DD1 then turns LCB back into the Dreamer with Calm Nightmares

2. Dreamer Activates due to Companion

Dreamer uses I Can Fly and Walks once. [+7"]

Dreamer casts Frightening Dream (looking for the All My Friend trigger) and unburies LCB [+6"]

3. Lord Chompy Bits then Activates due to One Master

LCB Walks forward. [+4"]

LCB then attacks using his Melee Expert (look for Onslaught Trigger). [+1" or +3"]

Okay but then you;ve catapulted LCB across the board for a total of 1 attack (barring onslaught) with no means to retreat and no remaining actions on the dreamer if LB were to die or get buried.

That's really not very effective. The scary thing about the dreamer first turn attack is that he can do it and leave you no way to counter attack by retreating back to his own deployment zone. Without that he's just made himself a huge target for your whole crew.