Living, Undead vs Other

[ProdigalPunk]

As Q says, you pay for the model, it's type is rolled into the cost of the model.You might also notice that almost every ranged model in the game is living, there are some exceptions, but they are very few. So as a Rezer player you have to decide which you would rather have. The enemy shooting your Punk Zombies to oblivion, but you get corpse counters or you can get to the enemy unmolested but don't get corpse counters.

You know with Nico Corpse Counters = more Punk Zombies right? So I think I would prefer the part where I get more corpse counters, because a fresh punk zombie summoned directly into melee with the ranged model is pretty nice. On top of that those ranged models are effected by all my spells and abilities. It is like Christmas.

In a tournament would anyone seriously take Seamus all that often? Being that non-living models make up most of the dominate lists I think half of his abilities and tricks are sort of shut down. He is a book 1 Master in a Book 2 world. Now that Avatars might fix things up a little bit, but we will have to wait a little bit to see if that is true or not.

[Math Mathonwy]

There's an underlying bed of false assumptions here that because of the abilities which work on living only, the only options are overpowered with them vs. living or underpowered if they aren't available. There really isn't any support for that. When you face living models you have to use different abilities, but that doesn't mean those abilities are insufficient to let you compete.

It's a surprisingly large bed:

Putting aside the obvious limitation of it not working against non-living, Trail of Fear + Face of Death means most minions will need a 10+ to a 12+ to get anywhere near him. Situational dependent on the targets, certainly, but it's a bit more than just "cute".

If you have several powerful abilities on several different models that like to go together that only work against the living, it's a pretty easy assumption to make. You certainly haven't made a convincing argument otherwise (other than "nu'uh" which doesn't exactly convince).

[Buhallin]

If you have several powerful abilities on several different models that like to go together that only work against the living, it's a pretty easy assumption to make. You certainly haven't made a convincing argument otherwise (other than "nu'uh" which doesn't exactly convince).

<shrug> By all appearances, absolutely nothing convinces.

But honestly, it's not up to me to positively prove how things balance out. I'm perfectly willing to trust Wyrd on it. My response isn't "nu'uh" - it's "Any of the designers at Wyrd have more hours testing this than the lot of us combined and squared, so if you think something's wrong you have to overcome that."

I do have to appreciate the jujitsu of requiring me to disprove something you've never proven, though. It's kinda like asking me, personally, to prove that the moon landing happened when you think it was faked.

[Math Mathonwy]

<shrug> By all appearances, absolutely nothing convinces.

I've certainly changed my opinion on things due to conversations on these forums but I appreciate you insinuating otherwise.

But honestly, it's not up to me to positively prove how things balance out. I'm perfectly willing to trust Wyrd on it. My response isn't "nu'uh" - it's "Any of the designers at Wyrd have more hours testing this than the lot of us combined and squared, so if you think something's wrong you have to overcome that."

That would mean that the game is perfectly balanced in all aspects. Or else that line of thinking is meaningless. So which is it?

I do have to appreciate the jujitsu of requiring me to disprove something you've never proven, though. It's kinda like asking me, personally, to prove that the moon landing happened when you think it was faked.

The basic assumption, when you have powerful abilities that work against certain subtypes but not others and that cost you SS means that the model is more powerful against those certain subtypes. You yourself admit that at least one of the powers is of a meaningful power level. So removing that option weakens the model.

Or would you think that since Perdita has good shooting, removing her Obey wouldn't affect her power level since she could always just shoot with those AP (or get into a position to shoot)?

Note though, that I realize that you believe that everything is balanced because Wyrd designed it (I wonder if the same faith extends to GW games, for example, as the line of reasoning is the same) so conversing with you is actually futile as you can't be convinced through logic (since "appeal to authority" is a logical fallacy) and I likely won't be responding to you further.

[Ratty]

The basic assumption, when you have powerful abilities that work against certain subtypes but not others and that cost you SS means that the model is more powerful against those certain subtypes. You yourself admit that at least one of the powers is of a meaningful power level. So removing that option weakens the model.

Or would you think that since Perdita has good shooting, removing her Obey wouldn't affect her power level since she could always just shoot with those AP (or get into a position to shoot)?

The answer to that is Yes... Removing Obey from Perdita removes an option, but doesn't really lower her power level by very much at all. Go check all the threads moaning that Obey is pointless as it got such a high cast, the general consensus was Obey was just icing and sometimes useful, but the fact that she had it didn't hugely alter her power level as she still had AP she could use for other things which were equally as useful.

Same is true of something like Nicodem, removing or making one of his powers less effective has a much smaller effect than you would think because he has other abilities that he can use the AP for which still are useful and have an effect. IE he's still getting to cast the same number of spells and do the same number of things. They are just different things he's doing.

[Math Mathonwy]

The answer to that is Yes... Removing Obey from Perdita removes an option, but doesn't really lower her power level by very much at all. Go check all the threads moaning that Obey is pointless as it got such a high cast, the general consensus was Obey was just icing and sometimes useful, but the fact that she had it didn't hugely alter her power level as she still had AP she could use for other things which were equally as useful.

Fair enough, a controversial example. Let's remove melee (well, leaving bash) and shooting from Sonnia instead, then. She can still cast her spells which is her main thing anyway, so no worse from the wear, right?

Same is true of something like Nicodem, removing or making one of his powers less effective has a much smaller effect than you would think because he has other abilities that he can use the AP for which still are useful and have an effect. IE he's still getting to cast the same number of spells and do the same number of things. They are just different things he's doing.

Aye, but they are not the optional stuff to be doing if the optional stuff to be doing would've been to use ability X that just doesn't work.

To pick a real-life example, against a living crew, Seamus makes for a very powerful area denial model which can be extremely useful in certain strategies. When it doesn't work, he is at a severe disadvantage in those strategies since the optimal thing to do would've been area denial.

I'm honestly utterly flabbergasted that I need to try to convince people that having more good options is better than having fewer good options.

:confused::confused::confused:

[Q'iq'el]

The basic assumption, when you have powerful abilities that work against certain subtypes but not others and that cost you SS means that the model is more powerful against those certain subtypes.

This is an assumption several posters in this thread make, but I wouldn't call it basic or even prevailing. It is case-by-case. Some abilities get extra effect against some characteristics, other are so powerful they get limited to only some characteristic. You can't say ability to heal Undead is a bonus on Decay - it is a limitation.

Clearly someone decided using Drain Blood on all models would be too powerful, so it got limited to living and undead, not made more powerful against those.

Examples of this are aplenty.

I also see it as a bit demagogic to see Terrifying as an anti-living ability. Sure, it effectively is anti-living, just like magic effectively is anti-spirit. But if anything, that is limitation on Terrifying and a balancing factor for Spirits (arguably the most powerful type of non-living) making them somewhat more common (and probably cost less in the budget), than a specifically anti-living bonus. That is of course from the game balance point of view - I can see Gremlin players being unmoved by the distinction.

This is all of course assuming the game is balanced by points-budget for every Model. But I think it is a reasonable assumption and it is being made by most posters anyway (whether you argue something costs more or is a free bonus, the assumption is abilities are somehow paid for).

[Dark Alleycat]

Fair enough, a controversial example. Let's remove melee (well, leaving bash) and shooting from Sonnia instead, then. She can still cast her spells which is her main thing anyway, so no worse from the wear, right?

:confused::confused::confused:

But then I couldn't make my opponent die of shock when Sonnia runs up to Lady Justice and hacks her apart with her sword.

That sort of idea makes baby Fire Gamin cry.

[Buhallin]

That would mean that the game is perfectly balanced in all aspects. Or else that line of thinking is meaningless. So which is it?

...

Note though, that I realize that you believe that everything is balanced because Wyrd designed it (I wonder if the same faith extends to GW games, for example, as the line of reasoning is the same) so conversing with you is actually futile as you can't be convinced through logic (since "appeal to authority" is a logical fallacy) and I likely won't be responding to you further.

You know, I kinda knew this was coming. For someone who spends so much time berating people for the style of their arguments rather than addressing content, you certainly are fond of taking things out of context and ignoring actual context.

I don't believe the game is perfectly balanced. As near as I can remember, I don't think I ever claimed such.

What I was saying (in the context of the point you brought up, which I even quoted) is that given the extra experience Wyrd has, the burden of proof is on you to show there's a problem, not for me to show it's not a problem. That's a very, very different thing than believing it's all perfect.

I'm honestly utterly flabbergasted that I need to try to convince people that having more good options is better than having fewer good options.

This is the source of a lot of the discontent with this issue, and the Neverborn. Who cares how many options there are as long as you have a decent shot at winning the game? Can Seamus run area denial via terrifying? Yes. Do you have to pick another tool out of his bag if the opponents aren't living? Yes. Are those other tools inferior?...

And that's the question you never bother to get to, or just don't care about. Is more good options better in some amorphous, "I'm jealous of the shiny toy the other kid had" sort of way? Sure. Is it a BALANCE issue? No. I'll offer up Hamelin for an example - he pretty much does one thing, and he does that one thing very well. Does that make him a worse choice, because he has fewer good options?

You can offer "better" and that's fine, or at least simply a matter of opinion. But claiming "unbalanced" is another matter entirely, and that's what people are trying to do here. And just to wrap it all back around, the burden of proof for that is on you, and it's one you've failed to even try and address beyond a simple assumption that has more holes in it than Overkill.

[Dolomyte]

I just think the rezzers schemes are shafted compared to arcanist neverborn and guild. I also think outcast schemes kind of blow.

It seemed like a case of fluff over balance.

I dont think rezzers are that bad off as a faction, I'm pretty sure I could win with them. I would just never take their schemes.

[Ratty]

I just think the rezzers schemes are shafted compared to arcanist neverborn and guild. I also think outcast schemes kind of blow.

It seemed like a case of fluff over balance.

I dont think rezzers are that bad off as a faction, I'm pretty sure I could win with them. I would just never take their schemes.

I think their Schemes are not awful, in some cases.. however none of them are auto includes every game. Unlike Sabotage or Kidnap. They are also very crew and opponent based getting more models on the board than the opponent is very doable against certain crews..

With Kirai she is so good at doing other schemes that although her personal scheme is actually being OK to complete there are other much better ones to do. Same with the Rezer schemes, she can manage Death after Death, but I would rarely take it over some of the basics.

Seamus can complete Army of the Dead but I would not choose it in general, and the same is true of his personal.

And that's how it goes across the board. All the Masters can reasonably get their schemes, but the basic ones just are easier.

[CrazyCarl]

I view harder schemes as an optional handicap. Playing Lady J, for example, instead of Assassinate (not easy) you can take her specific one which is much harder as a handicap against a less experienced player. I don't think Malifaux was designed as a competitive game in the same vein as Warmachine/Hordes. I often take Army of the Dead with Seamus just for the challenge (in fun games, that is).

[011121]

?!?

Terrifying doesn't work at all against non-living. Everything else a Mature does works just as well on living as on non-living. It is a 10SS model with relatively low Df, Wp and Wd count, but he does hit like a truck.

Fair point on terrify.

For the same price you can bring two Punk Zombies or Rogue Necromancy and you can very easily say they work ridiculously well against non-living (and living) as well.

I don't see how this applies to the argument at hand. Someone was arguing that niphilim need living opponents. I was pointing out they work just fine against non-living. Saying another model also works fine against non-living has no bearing on the issue.

Then there are Black Shaman spells, ability to summon more Lelus or Lilitus and all that - you either need Blood Counters or Corpse Counters for that.

alright, I'm not up on the shaman, I'll take your word for it.

And Neverborn as well, as I pointed out. It is not faction vs. faction thing, simply.

But that was never my point. Let me emphasize this since it keeps being misconstrued- my point was not that we have a faction imbalance, per se. Rather my point was that we have a type imbalance. Now I have pointed out that the superior types are concentrated in a couple factions which at least leaves the potential for a faction imbalance but that's been a tangential secondary issue. Unfortunately it's been the issue mostly focused on by posters.

But this argument is misplaced and misguided. It's not a choice. It's a characteristic. It is something that's paid for somewhere in the point budget of the character and it is something the crew and the faction is balanced around.

I see no evidence of that. If it is the case I'd like to hear it from someone who would know that rather than assume it.

You assume the default choice (living) is somewhat of a worse option. It is not - it is what everyone is. Then the benefits starts with some extra characteristics - Undead not having to take Terrifying tests is also a benefit. They are also non-living for the purpose of the spells that do not bunch up undead together with living (and frankly speaking there are not that many which do). The best example - Bête Noire loses her ability to Paralyze models against other Rezzers just as much as against Nightmares.

Living is the default but it is also objectively worse than any of the options. Undead is only slightly better as there's a reasonable amount of anti-undead powers (including all the "living or undead" powers). Constructs are similarly slightly better. Then you have the soulless and nightmares which are vastly better and yet the models don't seem to pay a price for all the invulnerabilities they receive. Look at any nightmare would any of them be over priced as living models? I can't see how. Ditto the soulless.

In the end, it only is a problem when you let your crew design rely on killing the living opponent and you'll be as much frustrated by Arcanists and some Guild crews, as by some Neverborn crews.

Strenuously disagree here. The problem is that it makes some tactical choices no-brainers. There's just never a good reason to take a living model when you can take a soulless or nightmare instead. that's a problem. As before every choice should involve trade offs. There's no trade off there, it's pure upside.

[011121]

The more I think about this thread' date=' the more confusing it gets. Do I get this right, that the biggest non-living faction, Rezzers, is complaining the characteristic is stunting their abilities? Hmm.[/quote']

no that's not right. I'm sorry you spent so much time typing up a lengthy reply to a misconception.

[011121]

Clearly someone decided using Drain Blood on all models would be too powerful, so it got limited to living and undead, not made more powerful against those.

And that's fine. the problem is that the limitation is always to "living", "living and undead", or "construct" and never to "soulless" or "nightmare." That's my point from the beginning. If you always limit powers to affecting the living then eventually all you do is make living models unplayable, or at least incapable of winning. It'd be much better to spread around some of these limitation on powerful abilities to balance the types a bit more.

I also see it as a bit demagogic to see Terrifying as an anti-living ability. Sure, it effectively is anti-living, just like magic effectively is anti-spirit. But if anything, that is limitation on Terrifying and a balancing factor for Spirits (arguably the most powerful type of non-living) making them somewhat more common (and probably cost less in the budget), than a specifically anti-living bonus. That is of course from the game balance point of view - I can see Gremlin players being unmoved by the distinction.

I can't fathom how you see it as unfair to call an ability that is only effective in weakening the living "anti-living." it's practically the definition of the term. ???

[dgraz]

yet the models don't seem to pay a price for all the invulnerabilities they receive. Look at any nightmare would any of them be over priced as living models? I can't see how. Ditto the soulless.

I've been following this thread since the start...just being amused by everyone pretty much voicing their opinions back and forth.

Now, this is the best statement I have seen thus far. I would have to totally agree that I can't see how their ss values would change if they had the living characteristic. And just by their characteristic, they are granted a huge amount of invulnerabilities.

[Fetid Strumpet]

And that was my point on the limitations on abilities. Because Nightmare and Soulless were either non-existent or very limited in the early release of the game very few abilities target those characteristics. Because many abilities are targeted at specific subtypes that existed at the start those models are affected by a proportionally higher percentage of abilities then say Nightmares are. (Note: this is once again not trying to shift the topic to faction balance, only on the nature of targeted abilities)

So abilities that only target or affect one subtype are always going to get proportionally worse as the game expands, because any new subtypes that don't fall into previous categories are rendered immune to those early edition abilities.

So for example, I will admit I don't like the Exorcist at all because, at least from a purely mechanical standpoint, I'm almost certain that every time I play against Guild I'm going to have to face 2 of them if the Guild player owns them, and the fact that they have the potential to just shut down resser crews is very annoying. HOWEVER, that said, I do quite like their abilities in a way because they are exclusionary rather than inclusionary. Some of their abilities work against "Non-Living", so anything that Wyrd adds in the future that is "non-living" will still be affected by the Exorcist's abilities, which means his effectiveness will remain fairly constant.

Inclusive abilities like "Necrotic Spray" are a far inferior design because the more Non-living options that are added to the game, the worse the ability becomes with no reduction in the points you spent to have the ability. If Wyrd Decides to add additional non-living subtypes such as Fae, Arboreal, Demonic, Aetheric, Mythological, Imaginary, Divine, etc... Abilities that are inclusive continue to degrade in efectiveness, while exclusive abilities such as "all Non-living", "All non-Neverborn", "All Non-Undead", continue to provide their models with effective abilities.

I could be wrong, but I think that was the point that the OP was making, and if it was then I agree with him.

[011121]

It's a rather more sophisticated than the general observations I was making but I like it, FS.

[Q'iq'el]

Nightmares and Soulless, among non-living, get the fewest benefits.

Even Undead get more, because besides the standard immunity to Terrifying, they also get immunity to all Morale Duels, as I've pointed out already.

Funny thing is, what gives The Dreamer's Nightmares the most benefits is the Spirit characteristic, not Nightmare one. And obviously they do suffer from everything, that targets Spirits (if you can put it that way, because it is more about bringing spirits back to equal ground with living models damage-wise).

But to change Spirits in any way would mean Rezzers would be hit the worst, so it seems to be consequently ignored in this thread and the Nightmare takes the blame instead.

Edited October 2, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Fetid Strumpet]

Q, if it sounds like I want to cuddle the entire Nightmare subtype please understand that is not the case. The OP brought up a point that from his perspective there wasn't enough abilities that targeted subtypes like Nightmare and Soulless and asked for peoples opinions on this.

Nightmares in particular have been a big focus of this thread because they were an entirely new subtype that was added whole-cloth to the game in book 2. This thread has nothing to do with specifically targeting Nightmares. In fact if someone suggested a Resser, or really a minion for any faction, the equivalent to the Exorcist but specifically targeting Nightmares I would not particularly want it and would argue that the targeted abilities, because they are inclusive, are a poor design choice for a game that will most likely continue to expand it's subtypes as the game continues to grow.

I've stated for the record that a Neverborn ability, possessed by the two of the most commonly used Neverborn minions, among others, is one I think of as an example of very elegant design and I wish more abilities were modeled on it specifically because it relates to the OP's original point. Perhaps I'm modifying it but if more abilities functioned as Black Blood does as opposed to Necrotic Spray there would be much less of an issue with abilities not being able to affect new creations of Wyrd's Designers.

The only reason I'm drawing on Black Blood, an almost exclusive, Neverborn ability, and Necrotic Spray, an at the moment Resser exclusive ability, is because they are exactly alike except in the way they select their targets. My argument holds equally as well across all faction lines.

As I've stated as much as I don't like the Exorcist, many of his abilities are exactly what I think pretty much most all abilities should be, which are exclusive designs. His dmg bonus works on all "Non-living", it excludes one trait but leaves the door open to anything Wyrd creats in the future. This is fantastic because if Wyrd tomorrow decides to put in the trait, oh let's say, Vampiric, and they create an entire range of Vampiric models in the next book the Exorcist's weapons still work they way they are intended to.

If the hypothetical "Vampiric" models are the "uber" models of the next book and for some reason magically shoot ressers to the most complained of and "OP" faction, it wont take a year or more and the introduction of "Silver Bullets" to have models with abilities written on them to affect them. They will already be in the game.

Additionally, I would imagine it makes it easier on the designers from a cost analysis perspective in the design. Now this might just be pure personal imagining, but I think I could much more easily gage the worth of how often an ability wouldn't work than how often it would.

Edited October 2, 2011 by Fetid Strumpet

[011121]

Nightmares and Soulless' date=' among non-living, get the fewest benefits.[/quote']

Maybe but they also have vastly fewer vulnerabilities, and that's far more important because while you build your crew you don't build the enemy's hence you can maximize what few positive triggers the nightmares or soulless have through your choice of models, but to minimize what the enemy can do to you- well that's out of your hands except through selection of type.

How do you figure? nightmare is what lets them move around crazy fast, getting buried and unburied as need be. I'd take that over spirit's resistance to most damage any day. Besides which, the only nightmare he has that are spirits (at least of his basic crew) are the daydreams.

Or it's a position that's simply disagreed with.

[Q'iq'el]

How do you figure? nightmare is what lets them move around crazy fast, getting buried and unburied as need be. I'd take that over spirit's resistance to most damage any day. Besides which, the only nightmare he has that are spirits (at least of his basic crew) are the daydreams.

That's not Nightmare characteristic which does it. That's a specific master's ability which targets specifically Nightmares. That's a completely different thing.

It's like saying Undead characteristic means any of them can be summoned or that being a Showgirl means the model can teleport around the table. Yeah, by a one master's ability.

Bottomline is this - there are only 2 or 3 Nightmares that are not also spirits. The characteristic in itself, is relatively rare. There's only one master which makes use of it.

I know people have beef with that particular master... but to try and spread that discontent on Nightmares, Soulless or non-living in general is a completely wrong approach to the problem.

It is even more confusing when Guild's ability to target specifically undead or spirit is being contrasted with Nightmares not having such a hard counter. This is completely out of context.

Guild, right after Gremlins, is likely to have majority of living models in their crew. They will generate more counters, they will be affected by more abilities, they won't have immunity to Terrifying or Moral Duels Ressurectionists bring with them.

That they get to pull some tricks on Undead, in return, is an element of faction to faction balance between these two groups. Gremlins get a degree of that with ability to eat or use Corpse Counters, and so does Von Shill. Fact the Nephilim can Drink Blood from Undead (yuck!) is also related to the same thing - predominantly living crew facing a Resurrectionist master is at disadvantage and that disadvantage gets slightly mitigated by that exception.

You'd be hard pressed to find specific anti-undead abilities in non-living crews. And the reason you won't find abilities countering Soulless or Nightmare minions specifically, is that these characteristics give less benefits to their respective crews on their own.

I understand if you are declared anti-Dreamer campaigner, the idea he can transport Nightmares all around the table is outrageous. But this in fact is also a limitation - he can do that *only* with Nightmares. He can't bring a Mature Nephilim or Nekima and do the same thing. He's powerful enough for that limitation not to matter, but how much more powerful would he be if that worked on all Neverborn?

The underlying argument of this thread, is simply speaking very confusing. On model per model basis, nobody benefits more than Undead, Constructs and Spirits. Soulless and Nightmares have the least benefits from being non-living. Paired with masters, Nightmare and Soullless turn out to be very powerful and good assets, but that is related directly to the abilities of their masters (and is in fact a limitation on number of models these masters can use).

In the context of entire game, no faction benefits more and uses more non-living than Resurrectionists, with all the benefits attached and ability to summon more non-living models without paying SS for that. Because it is a faction-wide thing, it gets bypassed by some crucial abilities other factions have. Otherwise these factions would be at disadvantage. Nightmares simply don't require such a counter, because they do not get stronger depending on faction they face, unlike Undead.

Or to put it other way around, the default power level your Resurrectionist master is balanced around, IMO, is when matched up with faction which almost doesn't drop Corpse Counter. Think Ramos, Tina or maybe even Pandora in Book 1. If the crew is living, you start getting benefit of extra counters - that is why that crew gets anti-undead abilities to balance things up.

Book 2 brings crews you are at slight disadvantage against - namely Vermin, Soulless and Nightmares (not all being non-living even). It also increases your ability to generate own Corpse Counters, in comparison to Book 1 times (when only Canine Remains were a reliable source; Don't forget the huge buff to CC generation Mortimer got after Book 2 release.).

Edited October 2, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[011121]

That's not Nightmare characteristic which does it. That's a specific master's ability which targets specifically Nightmares. That's a completely different thing.

I disagree it is the nightmare type that is being targetted so the nightmare type is integral to it working. hence it's an advantage of the type, just as an advantage of undead is it's ability to be summoned into play by some masters. You can't just ignore that advantage.

Bottomline is this - there are only 2 or 3 Nightmares that are not also spirits. The characteristic in itself, is relatively rare. There's only one master which makes use of it.

LCB, Teddy, Coppelius, Stitched, Alps, Lelu, and Liltu are not spirits. Daydreams and insidious madness are. Unless they came out with a bunch of spirit nightmares in the third book (which I do not have) I think you have to admit the vast majority of nightmares are not spirits.

I know people have beef with that particular master... but to try and spread that discontent on Nightmares, Soulless or non-living in general is a completely wrong approach to the problem.

This really wasn't about a specific master or about "spreading discontent." It was about examining an imbalance in the game that should probably be addressed in future developments.

You'd be hard pressed to find specific anti-undead abilities in non-living crews. And the reason you won't find abilities countering Soulless or Nightmare minions specifically, is that these characteristics give less benefits to their respective crews on their own.

Except that as above we disagree about the benefits that those types do offer, I consider them to be enormous.

I understand if you are declared anti-Dreamer campaigner, the idea he can transport Nightmares all around the table is outrageous. But this in fact is also a limitation - he can do that *only* with Nightmares. He can't bring a Mature Nephilim or Nekima and do the same thing. He's powerful enough for that limitation not to matter, but how much more powerful would he be if that worked on all Neverborn?

I think steps should be taken to bring the dreamer into line with other masters but again that's not the point here. But I do have to strenuously object to your characterization of not being able to teleport a mature niphilim (as an example) as a weakness. It's not a weakness to be exactly the same as every other master, it just means you don't have a bonus above others.

The underlying argument of this thread, is simply speaking very confusing. On model per model basis, nobody benefits more than Undead, Constructs and Spirits. Soulless and Nightmares have the least benefits from being non-living. Paired with masters, Nightmare and Soullless turn out to be very powerful and good assets, but that is related directly to the abilities of their masters (and is in fact a limitation on number of models these masters can use).

I really can't imagine how you say that. If I am playing against resurrectionists and I want an anti-undead model i am spoiled for choice. If I am playing arcanists and I want an anti-construct model i have at least some options. If I play against nightmares or soulless there's nothing I can do to try and counter their advantages.

Except maybe the exorcist, I thought someone said something about it messing with nightmares, again I don't have the third book. If it does then that's exactly the kind of thing we could probably use a few more of.

Again I really don't think you are getting my point at all. I am not arguing faction to faction balance. I'm just not. What I'm arguing is that if I say sit down to play neverborn I have a choice of 5 masters. Of those 5 1 uses constructs and nightmares (collodi), 1 uses nightmares (dreamer), and 3 tend to use living models (Pandora's woes, Lilith's Niphilim, and Zoraida's anybody who wandered into the swamp). Now because living models have such a huge number of vulnerabilities (and nightmares have none) the first two masters have an enormous advantage over the later two. That makes it absolutely a nobrainer when choosing a force. There's just no reason to ever go with living models if you have the option of something else, and no reason to go with undead or constructs if you have the options of soulless or nightmares.

That's not ideal. There should be some drawback, some risk to taking that type, just as there's risk for every other type. You never want a situation where a tactical choic only has one right answer, the answer should always depend on the situation. Right now it doesn't. Living is quite simply always the wrong answer. And you see that in tournaments where nobody brings living models that don't absolutely have to.

[Dolomyte]

Actually I tend to take nightmares with lilith and pandora (the twins), and a ton of them with zoraida (stitched, and other dolls)

So I rarely have living stuff on the table for neverborn.

[011121]

fair enough, it was just a general example to highlight the underlying point, which your example reinforces.