Living, Undead vs Other

[Q'iq'el]

Nightmares circumvent any army that uses corpse counters. Not just rezzers. thats the crucial thing they circumvent. not sure why that hasent gotten through your head yet.

I commented on that already. Undead are *THE ONLY* non living that drop Corpse Counters. It is not Nightmare specific thing in any way.

On the top of that, if you can get these Counters from other sources, you are not circumvented from getting them. It is merely a bit harder than against living models.

If your argument is so crumbling you need to be rude, I can't help you. I'm sure you realize perfectly well why Undead are the only non-living who drop these counters.

(hint: the entire undead faction would stop working if they didn't generate their own Counters).

[Q'iq'el]

Really? Cause I'm looking at Lady Justice and it sure seems like she's a lot more powerful against undead than any other type of model, including Nightmares. She can cause all undead with 12" to take 3 wounds, she can sacrifice all corpse counters a couple different ways (which may auto kill mindless Zombies but I'd have to check on that), she resists undead Wp duels much better.

Similarly The Death Marshals, Executioner, and Judge are all designed specifically to be the bane of undead crews. There's no such bane for Nightmares and Soulless. Perdita is supposed to be for all Neverborn but her abilities definitely gear her towards the niphilim (destroying counters again which also works perfectly well on undead) in that group.

This is strength of these models against Undead, not Undead weakness.

I recall myself arguing that because Living are the only models at big disadvantage when they face Undead, living-only crews get anti-undead abilities to balance them out.

Your argument only reinforces what I'm trying to say from the beginning in this thread.

[Dolomyte]

I commented on that already. Undead are *THE ONLY* non living that drop Corpse Counters. It is not Nightmare specific thing in any way.

On the top of that, if you can get these Counters from other sources, you are not circumvented from getting them. It is merely a bit harder than against living models.

If your argument is so crumbling you need to be rude, I can't help you. I'm sure you realize perfectly well why Undead are the only non-living who drop these counters.

(hint: the entire undead faction would stop working if they didn't generate their own Counters).

Right, but all those other ones that dont drop counters have weaknesses. or "counters". Nightmares dont. If your arguement is so weak you need to focus on my manners I cant help you.

[Dolomyte]

This is strength of these models against Undead, not Undead weakness.

I recall myself arguing that because Living are the only models at big disadvantage when they face Undead, living-only crews get anti-undead abilities to balance them out.

Your argument only reinforces what I'm trying to say from the beginning in this thread.

Having a model specifically designed to counter you is a weakness. because people can take those models to counter you. for instance, the anti-construct stuff is a weakness of constructs. You can infact have your cake and eat it too in this instance. one model has a strength, which creates a weakness for another.

[011121]

In the same way the Dreamer is designed to bury and unbury models. He has a list of models that work with him. The Nightmare ability doesn't grant the ability to move around fast. The Dreamer grants the models he was designed to work with the ability to bury and unbury. They could have just as easily wrote the dreamer's abilities work with... Long List of Models, but they keyed it off a keyword.

But either way they do it it gives the "long list of models" a big advantage that other models do not get. It's backwards to say the power is brought by the master and not the model- they both work together or not at all.

However if you look at Nightmare as a trait there is nothing overly powerful about it, it's the same as Lifer. There is nothing that makes it inherently better or worse against most crews. OK Seamus can't terrify them, but neither can they terrify any of Seamus' crew.. it kind of balance out.

Strenuously disagree. Lifer renders you immune to exactly one thing. Nightmares are immune to about 30% of the powers in the game. Not. The. same. at. all.

The question is really are the attacks on Nightmare because

a) Nightmare as an ability is over the top.

They believe the Dreamer is overpowered and the Dreamer takes Nightmares.

It's not an attack on nightmares, it's an attack on adding types to the game that have substantial advantages and little or no downside. As before soullless would be every bit as bad as nightmare if it weren't for the fact that most of them have either undead or construct to weaken them.

For some reason people really want to turn this into either a faction balance issue or a dreamer hate issue. It's not. It's a game design issue, pure and simple.

[011121]

This is strength of these models against Undead' date=' not Undead weakness.[/quote']

Really? Undead being the only models vulnerable to a power isn't an undead weakness? I think you are splitting this hair ridiculously finely.

The undead weakness is that there are a ton of powers that hurt undead. The living have an even worse weakness. Constructs have slightly less of a weakness. Nightmares and pure Soulless have no such weakness.

Now if you want to turn that around and say living have no advantage while undead and constructs have a small advantage and Nightmares and pure soulless have a huge advantage... fine. It's the same thing ultimately.

[Q'iq'el]

Right, but all those other ones that dont drop counters have weaknesses. or "counters". Nightmares dont. If your arguement is so weak you need to focus on my manners I cant help you.

Take a good look at who has these counters and what weaknesses they are.

Because this is argument in the vacuum.

There are a couple of mercenaries with anti-undead, anti-spirit or anti-construct abilities (Taelor, Von-Shill, Jack Daw to a degree etc). If you feel you are at disadvantage against undead or construct based crews, you can pay prime to bring one of those.

Crew-specific abilities are almost entirely limited to Guild. Guild gives counters to undead it has no use for, guild allows summoning spirit they have no use for, guild constructs drop scrap counters, they have almost no use for (with exception for Hoffman, but his crew is also predominantly construct).

Arguably Avatars and Book 3 minions complicate the situation, but most of them haven't been fully introduced to the game yet. Pre Book-3 the balancing function of these anti-X abilities was, IMHO, relatively easy to see. It is also obvious, at least to me, why only some non-living are being countered that way (i.e. because they are faction-wide and because they also get extra benefits from crews which bring these abilities).

It's harder to tell with Avatars like Rasputina, who create Constructs out of Corpse Counters, while denying the same Counters to the other side. But that is a bit in the future - we may trust the experience allowed the Designers to get it right or we may suspect the balance will be lost, but we simply don't know that yet.

[Q'iq'el]

Really? Undead being the only models vulnerable to a power isn't an undead weakness? I think you are splitting this hair ridiculously finely.

I'm trying to bring your attention to the fact, that these models are living and at disadvantage against undead (who get extra corpse counters from them, who have lots of Terrifying etc.).

That is why they receive anti-undead strengths. These are anti-undead strengths meant to balance undead's own strengths. This is not a weakness at any point - balance, if anything.

[Dolomyte]

Take a good look at who has these counters and what weaknesses they are.

Because this is argument in the vacuum.

There are a couple of mercenaries with anti-undead, anti-spirit or anti-construct abilities (Taelor, Von-Shill, Jack Daw to a degree etc). If you feel you are at disadvantage against undead or construct based crews, you can pay prime to bring one of those.

Crew-specific abilities are almost entirely limited to Guild. Guild gives counters to undead it has no use for, guild allows summoning spirit they have no use for, guild constructs drop scrap counters, they have almost no use for (with exception for Hoffman, but his crew is also predominantly construct).

Arguably Avatars and Book 3 minions complicate the situation, but most of them haven't been fully introduced to the game yet. Pre Book-3 the balancing function of these anti-X abilities was, IMHO, relatively easy to see. It is also obvious, at least to me, why only some non-living are being countered that way (i.e. because they are faction-wide and because they also get extra benefits from crews which bring these abilities).

It's harder to tell with Avatars like Rasputina, who create Constructs out of Corpse Counters, while denying the same Counters to the other side. But that is a bit in the future - we may trust the experience allowed the Designers to get it right or we may suspect the balance will be lost, but we simply don't know that yet.

The phillies choked and blew a solid lead, the eagles choked and blew a solid lead, and frankly dexter blew. I'm going to go to bed. I just want you to know that tomorrow we can go over faction by faction the models that exist to counter Spirits and constructs.

[Ratty]

But either way they do it it gives the "long list of models" a big advantage that other models do not get. It's backwards to say the power is brought by the master and not the model- they both work together or not at all.

The Master is designed to summon models. Being able to summon models is an obvious advantage I totally agree. But lets say you look at a Necropunk as an example. It's Unliving, you can take it in a variety of crews.

• If I take Seamus I can't resummon it if it dies
  
• if I take Molly I can't resummon it if it dies
  
• if I take Kirai I can't resummon it if it dies
  
• if I take McMourning I can't resummon it if it dies
  

So I have to ask you this, is it an advantage of the Necropunk that it can be summoned, or an advantage of Nicodem that he can summon it.

Strenuously disagree. Lifer renders you immune to exactly one thing. Nightmares are immune to about 30% of the powers in the game. Not. The. same. at. all.

30% is a huge exaggeration, I think if you totalled up the number of Abilities that target Wp it will probably be that amount. Being non-living does not make you immune to Wp duels, neither does it make you immune to Morale Duels, it makes you immune to Terrifying and other effects that say living models. It's only a hand-full of effects that target living models. Terrifying being the one that appears most often, probably if you broke it down 75% of the abilities on models that don't effect non-living will be terrifying.

It's not an attack on nightmares, it's an attack on adding types to the game that have substantial advantages and little or no downside. As before soullless would be every bit as bad as nightmare if it weren't for the fact that most of them have either undead or construct to weaken them.

Nightmare does not have to have a downside for it to be balanced. It just needs to be costed correctly into the model. Lets say I have a gun, that's a substantial advantage with no downside. Under your logic that is broken. But in actual fact it's fine as long as you pay for the ability.

[Q'iq'el]

The phillies choked and blew a solid lead, the eagles choked and blew a solid lead, and frankly dexter blew. I'm going to go to bed. I just want you to know that tomorrow we can go over faction by faction the models that exist to counter Spirits and constructs.

Sure, just consider at the same time what weaknesses these crews have against undead/spirit/construct and do the anti-spirit, anti-construct or anti-undead abilities they bring are meant to counter these or not.

I predict there may be some exceptions, but as far as I know the game, you'll find out that most of the factions/crews with these abilities will come from the factions/crews weaker than average against models with this characteristic.

Nightmares and Soulless may be too powerful or not (like Ratty says this is matter of opinion). But I'm pretty sure there is no crew which is "weaker than average" against their entire faction, which explains relative lack of such abilities.

[Cats Laughing]

From a fluff point of view, I can't see why Soulless don't drop corpse counters.

On a balance point of view, I can see the "complaints" about how Nightmare/Soulless don't appear to have the same disadvantages as Undead or Living (immune to abilities that target living, immune to those that target undead, and don't drop counters)

At the same time, I do see it as a reasonable possibility that Wyrd has taken this into account with their points costs or other abilities (in the same way that Spirit models tend to have lower wound counts and don't block LOS to counter their half damage and terrain ignoring advantages).

Now I don't have the experience to weigh in on either side, but I think you guys should keep debating and supporting your arguments with as much data as possible so that this debate can be beneficial to Wyrd.

Note: While Wyrd no doubt has dedicated playtesters who may have a large sample of their own data, the larger population of general gamers can provide more data, but only if they provide detailed reports to support their points and try to keep personal biases out of it (ie: don't just report when you get stomped by hated Master XXX). I suggest posting reports in the battlereports section of these forums

[Buhallin]

From a fluff point of view, I can't see why Soulless don't drop corpse counters.

I believe the answer to this lies in Nicodem's musings concerning Kirai's power in Book 2, and the various studies of the undead which came out of Book 3 (via Nicodem, McMourning, and maybe Marcus).

Resurrectionists need some spark of a soul to animate a body. To the specific examples above, Nicodem was hoping to harness Kirai's ability to draw in more powerful spirits to occupy the corpses, resulting in more powerful undead. The analysis of the zombies which came from the chasm in Book 3 said that they were too old to have reasonably been animated, because the spark was completely gone.

[Math Mathonwy]

Madness is a spirit. I've been talking about Nightmares which aren't also a spirits and benefit crews others than The Dreamer. Even more' date=' I've been speaking about benefits non-Dreamer masters get from Nightmares and what I said was that the benefits they get are chiefly from these models being Spirits, not from them being Nightmares.[/quote']

So, in effect, you were only discussing Alps (since you admit to forgetting Coppelius and the rest of the non-Spirit nightmares you admitted to being used a lot). OK.

The difference of terrifying to non-terrifying between those two subtypes is what, 2 percentage units? It's surprising that that difference is enough to turn from almost none to plenty.

[Orboros]

It just really $$$$$$$$es me of that when i play against the dreamer of our lgs, i hear the same sentence over and over again. "You can't do that he is a Nightmare *insert evil grin*"

[Dolomyte]

I believe the answer to this lies in Nicodem's musings concerning Kirai's power in Book 2, and the various studies of the undead which came out of Book 3 (via Nicodem, McMourning, and maybe Marcus).

Resurrectionists need some spark of a soul to animate a body. To the specific examples above, Nicodem was hoping to harness Kirai's ability to draw in more powerful spirits to occupy the corpses, resulting in more powerful undead. The analysis of the zombies which came from the chasm in Book 3 said that they were too old to have reasonably been animated, because the spark was completely gone.

ohhhhhhhh right, forgot about that.

Clever clever.

All right, im fine with soulless and nightmares not droping counters now. one goes to ectoplasm, one does not have the fluffy spark of life.

I would still like to see an anti-nightmare ability or two. but Ratty and Buhallin have successfully argued that fluff = rules in my opinion.

[011121]

I'm trying to bring your attention to the fact, that these models are living and at disadvantage against undead (who get extra corpse counters from them, who have lots of Terrifying etc.).

That is why they receive anti-undead strengths. These are anti-undead strengths meant to balance undead's own strengths. This is not a weakness at any point - balance, if anything.

Except it's not all living models that get these powers, it's specific ones. There are specific anti-undead models out there available to factions. And that's fine, but then there should also be specific anti-soulless, or anti-nightmare models.

[Hookers]

Nightmares and Soulless may be too powerful or not (like Ratty says this is matter of opinion).

There is an objective power level that models have. It is not a matter of opinion. Now, people's opinions about that objective power level might be wrong but it does not mean that the objective power level does not exist.

presumably that power level is quantified by using a soul stone cost, but this again might be incorrect.

[011121]

The Master is designed to summon models. Being able to summon models is an obvious advantage I totally agree. But lets say you look at a Necropunk as an example. It's Unliving, you can take it in a variety of crews.

• If I take Seamus I can't resummon it if it dies
  
• if I take Molly I can't resummon it if it dies
  
• if I take Kirai I can't resummon it if it dies
  
• if I take McMourning I can't resummon it if it dies
  

So I have to ask you this, is it an advantage of the Necropunk that it can be summoned, or an advantage of Nicodem that he can summon it.

it's both as I've said repeatedly. If that's unclear let's simply turn your line of argument around:

If you have Nicodem as your master

• and you take a nurse you can't resummon it if it dies
  
• and you take Mortimer/Sebastian you can't resummon them if they die
  
• and you take a desperate mercenay you can't resummon it if it dies
  
• et cetera ad nauseum
  

it's exactly the same logic. It works both ways and the inescapable conclusion is that there is an advantage to both.

Let me put it more starkly. Assume you had a model that was in all respects a copy of the guild guardsman but with one additional ability that allows Lady Justice to summon it in combat. Does that model not have an advantage over the Guild Guardsman? Of course it does. It has an ability that the other does not. Does Lady Justice enjoy an advantage she did not have before too? Yes, absolutely.

30% is a huge exaggeration, I think if you totalled up the number of Abilities that target Wp it will probably be that amount. Being non-living does not make you immune to Wp duels, neither does it make you immune to Morale Duels, it makes you immune to Terrifying and other effects that say living models. It's only a hand-full of effects that target living models. Terrifying being the one that appears most often, probably if you broke it down 75% of the abilities on models that don't effect non-living will be terrifying.

Well I guess we'd have to add it up to see because my immediate reaction to you saying only a handful of effects target living models was essentially a spit take.

Nightmare does not have to have a downside for it to be balanced. It just needs to be costed correctly into the model. Lets say I have a gun, that's a substantial advantage with no downside. Under your logic that is broken. But in actual fact it's fine as long as you pay for the ability.

Except that as before Nightmare does not appear to be costed in at all. I asked this before- which nightmare model is it you think would be over priced as a living model? As I see it they're all still a very good deal even after losing all those invulnerabilities.

[Ratty]

it's both as I've said repeatedly. If that's unclear let's simply turn your line of argument around:

If you have Nicodem as your master

• and you take a nurse you can't resummon it if it dies
  
• and you take Mortimer/Sebastian you can't resummon them if they die
  
• and you take a desperate mercenay you can't resummon it if it dies
  
• et cetera ad nauseum
  

it's exactly the same logic. It works both ways and the inescapable conclusion is that there is an advantage to both.

Let me put it more starkly. Assume you had a model that was in all respects a copy of the guild guardsman but with one additional ability that allows Lady Justice to summon it in combat. Does that model not have an advantage over the Guild Guardsman? Of course it does. It has an ability that the other does not. Does Lady Justice enjoy an advantage she did not have before too? Yes, absolutely.

OK let's put this a different way, 5 masters and a Henchman can take Necropunks, only 1 master can summon them. Should the cost of being able to be summoned be attached to the Necropunks which most of the time can't be summoned or the Summoner.

In the case of the Guild Guardsman. Does the Guild Guardsman have an advantage when I take him with Sonnia, No. Lady J has the advantage that she can summon the model so it should be costed into Lady J.

[011121]

I did a quick survey of just the first book and came up with these:

mcmourning master surgeon LU

nicodem/mindless zombie empty vessel LU

seamus necrotic ministrations LU

seamus trail of fear

bete drawn to death LU

bete feed on death

bete depraved tactics (sever spine)

canine remains bloodhound

sybelle shriek

hanged horrible end

nurse massive dose LU

sebastian surgeon LU

wendigo/december acolyte/hoarcat pride/sabertooth cerberus devour

sabertooth cerberus roar

lilith/terror tot/young Nephilim/mature Nephilim drain blood LU

zoraida enthrall

silurid blood frenzy LU

Leveticus entropic transformation (to summon hollow waif) LU

giant mosquiteo parasitic infection LU

desolation engine industrial nightmare

hans custom ammo (+ damage flips on explosive ammo)

hamelin black death

some notes:

• I did not include any of the powers that specifically rely on corpse counters nor any power that relies on one of the powers above (for example the growth powers of the nephilim)
  
• I did not include terrify powers
  
• I did not include powers that specify some subset of living models (i.e. beasts, woes, etc.)
  
• only the first book
  
• original stats so may not reflect errata
  
• rather than adding different lines for multiple people with the same powers I just added their names to the same line
  
• "LU" indicates a power that targets living or undead
  
• a few of these are beneficial, such as the nurse's overdose
  
• I can't promise I didn't miss some
  

[011121]

OK let's put this a different way, 5 masters and a Henchman can take Necropunks, only 1 master can summon them. Should the cost of being able to be summoned be attached to the Necropunks which most of the time can't be summoned or the Summoner.

In the case of the Guild Guardsman. Does the Guild Guardsman have an advantage when I take him with Sonnia, No. Lady J has the advantage that she can summon the model so it should be costed into Lady J.

To use the latter example if you don't have the improved guard cost more how is that possibly balanced? When a model has an ability you should pay for it, even if you structure your crew such that you don't take advantage of it.

Steampunk abominations have to pay for the ability to become desolation engines even if you choose not to take enough of them. It's an ability they have. Waldgeists have to pay for their forest powers even if you have no forests on the table. And, yes, necropunks should cost appropriately given that they can be summoned by some masters directly onto the table.

Now granted the rather small range of costs for units in malifaux means that such a cost will likely be too small to warrant a full soulstone increase, but that's the chunkiness of the system and doesn't reflect a lack of value.

[Ratty]

To use the latter example if you don't have the improved guard cost more how is that possibly balanced? When a model has an ability you should pay for it, even if you structure your crew such that you don't take advantage of it.

You are really not seeing the point here. If I hire a Guard I'm not summoning it. Once it's in the game it does not get any advantage due to the fact that Lady J can summon it. Also Summoning does not have a SS cost attached.

So you would always hire the cheaper Guardsman, as the summonable version has no advantage in game. And summon the summonable one.

There is a cost for being able to summon a model and it's the summoner that pays for it, in AP, in high cards, in the abilities he gets for his cost. The summoned model gains no benefit in game for being summonable.

Edited October 4, 2011 by Ratty

[011121]

You are really not seeing the point here. If I hire a Guard I'm not summoning it. Once it's in the game it does not get any advantage due to the fact that Lady J can summon it. Also Summoning does not have a SS cost attached.

So you would always hire the cheaper Guardsman, as the summonable version has no advantage in game. And summon the summonable one.

There is a cost for being able to summon a model and it's the summoner that pays for it, in AP, in high cards, in the abilities he gets for his cost. The summoned model gains no benefit in game for being summonable.

Of course he gets a benefit in game, he gets placed where he's needed without previously ever having been subject to any threat. That's a huge benefit. Ask any dreamer player.

[Hatchethead]

Of course he gets a benefit in game, he gets placed where he's needed without previously ever having been subject to any threat. That's a huge benefit. Ask any dreamer player.

But he is placed (lower case "P") with Slow. Surely that offsets the benefit, somewhat? Hardly a favorable comparison to the Dreamer and his Placed Nightmares.