Corpse counter placement

[Stonedog-7]

When a model is killed and leaves corpse counters the wording of Graverobber in the RM is the dying model gets "replaced" by counters... under "replacing" in the RM it states that you place the new model (or in this case counters) in base contact and then remove the model being replaced, fine

So when a model is killed who determines the placements of the counters, the dead models owner or the player who's done the killing?

It came up yesterday in a game as it was going to make a hell of a difference between almost auto-gaining the counters as the kill was made in melee and having to spend AP to move up and collect them... in the end we flipped for it as we couldn't find an answer in the books... and i'd assume this would go for scrap counters too

[poulpox]

Hiya!

The word used on p9 of RM regarding counters is "replaced" without capital R, which is different from "Replaced" the game term defined on p38. Gaming terms are usually (most always?) capitalised in Malifaux to differentiate them from their normal language use. So regarding the placement of corpse counters, they are actually placed at the location the model was occupying, or in other words replace (not Replace) the model where is was positioned.

Hope this helps

[Stonedog-7]

Ah, ok... that helps clears things up a bit... but, for a large based model dropping 3 counters as an example, would they stack or be placed seperately (i know when a model carrying them drops them they stack, so i've always assumed stacked but i may as well be sure about this)... and again, who would be responsible for their placement as you could easily have them placed so that a model in base contact could automatically pick them up (or if it's the dying models choice deny you from doing so)

[Calmdown]

When a model is killed and leaves corpse counters the wording of Graverobber in the RM is the dying model gets "replaced" by counters... under "replacing" in the RM it states that you place the new model (or in this case counters) in base contact and then remove the model being replaced, fine

So when a model is killed who determines the placements of the counters, the dead models owner or the player who's done the killing?

It came up yesterday in a game as it was going to make a hell of a difference between almost auto-gaining the counters as the kill was made in melee and having to spend AP to move up and collect them... in the end we flipped for it as we couldn't find an answer in the books... and i'd assume this would go for scrap counters too

I've also been wondering this. I do remember seeing something in the rulebook back in the mists of time that led me to a conclusion, but I cant remember what that rule was, what my conclusion was, or whether it was all just a dream...

[poulpox]

for a large based model dropping 3 counters as an example, would they stack or be placed seperately

We've been placing them stacked somewhere under the killed model in a rather relaxed manner ; I don't think there's something in the RM to direct precisely the drop, but I might be wrong. I don't think I've seen a ruling regarding this though.

[Stonedog-7]

:bump:

[PicklesGrr]

I asked this in April & got no reply. There is/was another old pre RB thread that also did not give an answer.

What bemuses me is that it must surely have come up that a graverobber in BTB killed a medium/large based model before this?

[Headcase2]

All corpse counters are placed in 1 stack in the exact centre of the killed model. This mean you won't be able to pick up the corpse counters of a model on a 40 or 50 mm base without moving, even if you were in base contact with it when it was killed.

I'm not sure in which post it was, but it's been ruled on before.

[Calmdown]

All corpse counters are placed in 1 stack in the exact centre of the killed model. This mean you won't be able to pick up the corpse counters of a model on a 40 or 50 mm base without moving, even if you were in base contact with it when it was killed.

I'm not sure in which post it was, but it's been ruled on before.

I've not been able to find any reference to posts on this, so we'll have to find a post before this sticks I think.

Also, the rules manual specifically states that counters are placed in contact with a model before the model is removed, if I recall correctly (could be wrong here though) so that ruling would seem contradictory.

[JuJubee]

I've always placed them where the model was standing and in the center. If they were a large model I put one counter down and stick one of my dice on them to denote how many counters are there. Its easier than stacking.

[Q'iq'el]

I asked this in April & got no reply. There is/was another old pre RB thread that also did not give an answer.

What bemuses me is that it must surely have come up that a graverobber in BTB killed a medium/large based model before this?

It isn't very significant, that's why it hasn't been answered earlier (IMHO).

Generally speaking, Graverobers do not want to pick the counters up. Counters on the ground are useable for anyone. Counters picked up are protected from destruction (most of the time), but are committed to that one model.

Also picking them up doesn't cost AP, so you can always do it on the way somewhere else.

From all the models I can recall at the moment, only Canine Remains and the new Rafkin have to pick up counters for their abilities. That is pretty marginal.

[Headcase2]

Counters on the ground are easily destroyed or used/picked up by opposing grave robbers...

[Stonedog-7]

From all the models I can recall at the moment, only Canine Remains and the new Rafkin have to pick up counters for their abilities. That is pretty marginal.

McMourning is the main one for me certainly, he has to pick up the corpse counter to be able to split it into body parts (or have another model pick it up to ferry it to him) and it's the situation that had come up in my last game... as for not being a significant thing to pick them up, quite often that's 1 ap to move that you're not spending on other things, though you are right in that alot of the truly counter dependant people don't need to pick up the counter

Thanks for the replies though, my confusion definitely seemed to stem primarily from the wording of "replaced" and "Replaced"

[Keltheos]

They should be placed (little p) in the center of where the model was.

[Soundwave]

So if you kill something on a 40 och 50mm base, you will never be able to pick up the counter immediately, I guess?

Since you need to touch the counters in order to pick them up, and if you place them in the middle of a 40/50mm base, it won't be touching the model that made the kill.

Or is there some clause somewhere that I've missed?

[Hookers]

So if you kill something on a 40 och 50mm base, you will never be able to pick up the counter immediately, I guess?

Since you need to touch the counters in order to pick them up, and if you place them in the middle of a 40/50mm base, it won't be touching the model that made the kill.

Or is there some clause somewhere that I've missed?

if you place them next to each other, the size of the counters roughly make up the same size as the base for 40s and 50s.

some people have insisted that they stack on each other, but there is no justification in the manual for this. the only time they stack is when another model who is carrying them, dies.

so when a 50mm dies, just place the 3 counters underneath him touching each other. its not perfect but it roughly makes up the same space. placement of counters (whether stacked or done in the manner i described) almost never matters or makes a difference in the outcome of the game.

if you are touching a model when it dies, you pick up the counters it would drop.

[Soundwave]

if you place them next to each other, the size of the counters roughly make up the same size as the base for 40s and 50s.

some people have insisted that they stack on each other, but there is no justification in the manual for this. the only time they stack is when another model who is carrying them, dies.

so when a 50mm dies, just place the 3 counters underneath him touching each other. its not perfect but it roughly makes up the same space. placement of counters (whether stacked or done in the manner i described) almost never matters or makes a difference in the outcome of the game.

If you place them next to eachother it's possible to place them so that:

1. Place them so that the "killer" doesn't touch any of the markers

or

2. Place them so that the "killer" touches both (or two in the case of 50mm)

So, depending on who places them it'd make a big difference to the amount of counters one could pick up.

Also,

They should be placed (little p) in the center of where the model was.

If they are stackable, the closest to the center of where the model was, should be to stack them, at least if the intention is to cover as much area as the original model used.

if you are touching a model when it dies, you pick up the counters it would drop.

Howso? Is this mentioned anywhere, or is it wishful thinking/logical/RAI?

[tadaka]

Well on a 30 mm the counters would drop in the exact same place so in base contact and you grab them for free. Kelmthos ruleing on 40 and 50 mm would not allow this

[Soundwave]

Well on a 30 mm the counters would drop in the exact same place so in base contact and you grab them for free. Kelmthos ruleing on 40 and 50 mm would not allow this

My point exactly.

[Keltheos]

I'll get you guys a better ruling on this once we have time to talk.

Kel's current official answer: center the counters beneath the killed base.

Kel's unofficial standby answer:

If the base is larger than 30mm, good form would be to stack the counters beneath the center of the base just like you would the 30mm ones. HOWEVER, we know that good form is a subjective quality and that some models directly benefit from grabbing the Counters as they are generated. I recommend players stack the counters so they are centered beneath the base killed, UNLESS the model doing the killing has Graverobber. (but that's just me)

[Gremlin guy]

Was there ever a "better ruling" to this?

[Mach_5]

From the FAQ:

Q. A 40mm/50mm based model drops Counters when it is killed. Can a model in base contact with it pick up the counters?

A. Yes. As the model generates the Counters before dropping them, models in base contact with it have a chance to pick them up before they drop out of reach.

And as has been said here by a rules marshall, counters should be stacked beneath the center of the dying model. I think that clears it up nicely, no?

[Gremlin guy]

That clears it up nicely and closes the thread which previously ended with a 'I'll post more later, but for now use this'.

The question about where the counters are placed comes up frequently for me since I have a friend who plays McMourning and I just finished a Nico crew. I'll point him here as well.