Alp Bomb, Mark 2

[schristofersen]

It really seems like Alps could maintain their flavor and be reigned back into tolerable levels with a simple "rare 3" addition (i'd even justify that they kill each other off after that level to be fluffy)

Chompy is another matter. I doubt most people play him to his optimal level and don't see the issues that Calmdown is pointing out.

I feel like chompy shouldn't be able to use soulstones (the dreamer should, see my distinction there?) and that would also go a long way toward balancing him (although I think he would still be one of the strongest masters)

As for the other minions Lelu, Lililitu, etc. I will say that I believe in balance through the addition of more powerful minions in the other factions. I believe that Calmdown and I have agreed to disagree on this in a few games (or at least I decided not to argue about it further). Cuddling models to the same vanilla level is boring, add more spicy (look to MtG homelands set vs any of the new sets and the corresponding popularity for why).

[Hermitpermit]

We have a Dreamer player and he doesn't currently play the alp bomb list although he is considering it. It's just so unreasonable to consider that all he does is literally sit on top of your units and let you die. Alps can be stopped with AOE or the fact you just keep them busy by dropping JuJu on their head.

Also Copellius seems to be kind of ridiculous and used like some kind of sledgehammer for living units. To be honest though, every faction has some kind of silver hammer beat stick. If The Dreamer's hammer is Copellius, it ain't too bad. The fact that he makes Alps can be a pain in the ass too so you have to watch out for it. You can put bait in front of Copellius and kill him with other units and accept the Paralyze he gives you. Baby Kade has a pretty good chance to kill him.

LCB is very strong but he has his issues which make him balanced. He can burn through his soulstones quite fast if you use him as a beaten stick which makes him have problems. I am usually pleased when LCB gets in my face because when he gets pulled back by the Daydreams, they get to sit there for beating.

Keep the faith against the Dreamer and don't forget they bleed like anything else Neverborn do. As this is the Neverborn Forum, I like to keep around Juju, Kade, and Doppleganger for the Dreamer cause it keeps them on their toes.

[karn987]

I think the interaction between Daydreams and the Dreamer and Chompy is the biggest issue.

we fix the way the Dreamer can Abuse not use the daydreams, the Dreamer would be very strong, but not over the top.

*Taps his nose* We agree on that. They've always been the key to the Dreamers success and one of his biggest lynch pins. If there was to be a change, that would be a good place to start looking. The hard part is, what to tweak that won't cause a full on cuddle of him but will still make a big enough impact. Their biggest impact is from Magical Extension of his Bury and Unbury spells.... so how to handle it? Ideas anyone?

[011121]

*Taps his nose* We agree on that. They've always been the key to the Dreamers success and one of his biggest lynch pins. If there was to be a change, that would be a good place to start looking. The hard part is, what to tweak that won't cause a full on cuddle of him but will still make a big enough impact. Their biggest impact is from Magical Extension of his Bury and Unbury spells.... so how to handle it? Ideas anyone?

Uh I already suggested one- limit him to only buying 1 daydream instead of three but allow him to still summon more. That doesn't prevent him from launching an alpha strike it just means he can launch an alpha strike with LCB getting all his actions and retreat in the same activation clump. Or it requires him to spend a turn or two summoning (using up his soulstones) in order to get the ridiculous pounce destroy and disappear routine off. That means the opponent has a legitimate chance to go after objectives and try to out score him. It provides tactical option by letting him do everything he did before, just not all at the same time.

[Fetid Strumpet]

That doesn't solve the first turn strike though which in my opinion should not be possible. Being able to move your entire crew in one action into melee range on my side of the board and strike with Chompy before I even get to do anything is WAY over the top, and the dreamer only needs one Daydream that is already out and one buried to do this.

I wonder if draining resources is the way to fix it, for example Kirai has to burn through wounds like a fiend to activate many of her abilities, and then burn actions often to heal up. I don't suggest the exact same thing but if using some of the abusive abilities cost important resources maybe that would fix it?

[011121]

That doesn't solve the first turn strike though which in my opinion should not be possible. Being able to move your entire crew in one action into melee range on my side of the board and strike with Chompy before I even get to do anything is WAY over the top, and the dreamer only needs one Daydream that is already out and one buried to do this.

Was this a response to me? Cause if it needs two daydreams and you are only allowed to buy one then that certainly seems to fix the issue

[Fetid Strumpet]

You don't even need to bury a Daydream to get the first turn alpha strike into the opponents zone.

[robk]

Had a conversation with a local vicky player who said that vicky will die from just the alp's giving her slow?

As I understand it,

1. Dreamer drops off X Alps within 3" to model A

2. Model A activates and takes a single WP->12 duel at a minus (X-1)

3. If failed model A becomes slow and takes X Wds

Is this wrong? Initially I thought you took a wp-> 12 test per alp but smoother is worded so it's only 1 test.

[schristofersen]

Had a conversation with a local vicky player who said that vicky will die from just the alp's giving her slow?

As I understand it,

1. Dreamer drops off X Alps within 3" to model A

2. Model A activates and takes a single WP->12 duel at a minus (X-1)

3. If failed model A becomes slow and takes X Wds

Is this wrong? Initially I thought you took a wp-> 12 test per alp but smoother is worded so it's only 1 test.

just from the alp's giving her slow is a bit of an overstatement. Exhaustion is what is likely to actually kill the vickies. If she fails her save and takes X damage from the alps, she then must likely move or strike, both of which will make her take exhaustion damage. If X were more than 3 and she failed her WP save to avoid slow, she would die if within range of all three.

You could avoid this by using sisters in spirit if you have a vicky that is away from the alps.

[schristofersen]

so...

would rare 3 fix the alp issue?

I think so, but thought i'd ask.

would this make the dreamer/lord chompy bits scaled back to just crazy good? or would he still be borked?

So really these are different questions:

Would rare 3 fix the alp bomb issue? (I think yes)

Is chompy still so powerful even without Alps that he needs further fixes? (I think likely as his combat and mobility combination is way over the top... but it was pointed out to me that Lilith is about as mobile/fighty)

are there slight tweaks that could be made that would bring him in line with most of the masters? (make chompy not able to use soulstones while the dreamer could or not give the bonus soulstones for nightmares etc)

[Fetid Strumpet]

The Alp Bomb is a seperate Issue from issues of The Dreamer's power level. They ARE linked but one can be somewhat distinct from the other.

Consider these points The Dreamer has potentially:

One of the larger SS Cache's among the Masters.

One of the best Melee Models in the Game (Chompy)

One of the Hardest to kill Masters in the Game (The Dreamer. Also don't forget that for schemes and strats that require you to kill or make certain the opposing master isn't on the Board you need to kill both).

The fastest master in the game.

Least Reliant on Suites to perform at an acceptable level.

Most mobile crew in its entirety.

Can compete very well at every strategy and every scheme available to him.

Master who can most easily manipulate the current crop of schemes and strats to deny the opponent VP.

Has some of the best synergy between master and crew in the game.

I just don't see after looking at this how anyone can honestly say that The Dreamer is totally fine and not OP. Now to be fair the DREAMER/CHOMPY as written with no other models considered would be exceptionally strong just by themselves, and although strong, not OP. Add in the Daydreams, which in my opinion is where alot of the problem lies and you get the current situation.

Edited September 26, 2011 by Fetid Strumpet

[schristofersen]

So if the mobility were reduced somehow it looks like that might, in and of itself, balance the large majority of what you have indicated.

In other words Alps are not really the problem, but rather, the ability to drop a shed load of alps on models is the issue.

Most of the ability to do schemes, and deny schemes, is based on the mobility of the crew. Take that down a notch and the entire crew comes down in power level.

[Mike3838]

How about reducing the Dreamers trigger on Frightening Dreams so that instead of being able to drop his whole crew at once, he can only drop a few, say 2 or 3, at a time.

Mike

[Dolomyte]

yeah, TBH if the dreamer could not hand deliver a ton of alps into any part of your crew he wants on the first turn, alps would be perfectly fine. Also, if alps did not exist, the dreamer being able to hand deliver stuff into anywhere of your crew he wants, would not be so amazingly powerful.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Also, if alps did not exist, the dreamer being able to hand deliver stuff into anywhere of your crew he wants, would not be so amazingly powerful.

I'm afraid I disagree with that statement. The ability to, on his very first activation of the game, to not only drop his entire crew off in melee range in his opponent's deployment zone, kill one of your most important models with Chompy, and then appear back in his deployment zone is a bit over the top. I don't particularly enjoy losing my best model, and then having to face 2 Lelus and a stiched being in Melee before I even get a chance to act, and then only getting one activation before both Lelus go. I don't see how anyone can honestly say that this is not over the top. And it is all made possible by the interaction of the Daydreams.

[Q'iq'el]

Fetid Strumpet, I'm sorry, but that's a broken record.

This is not Warhammer, where entire faction moves at once and being in melee in turn 1 breaks the game. After he drops his entire crew in melee range, you are the one who gets to move. Even the description of the Dreamer attack as an "alpha-strike" isn't exactly accurate, because in this game something without companion hadn't really even been considered an alpha-strike before the Dreamer's arrival.

So what, he can attack a model in the turn 1? So can do other masters, they just go different way about it. As long as there's no simultaneous activation involved, this isn't really a problem for anyone.

I agree with everyone who says Alp bombs make the proper reaction to such a rush a very difficult choice, but to claim mere fact he can do it breaks him is simply WAAAAY over the top. He drops the models in melee? Great, now you don't have to waste your APs on walks can beat on them from the start.

There are masters inconvenienced by this and there are crews which are weaker than others, when faced with such threat, but that is how the game is supposed to be (apparently) - you have to pick up your models for your task and anticipating your opponent selection and deploying right for it is also part of the game (and no, I don't guess it right with any accuracy).

As far as Alp bombs go, I still think half of the problem is that people want to go to the game with "their list". Every time someone posts to ask if the list he has come up with OK, I feel like coming to the thread and say "wrong game". You don't come up with lists, you pick up whatever models you feel you may need. If you don't want to change your game in response to the new combos being developed by the players, then may I suggest prearranged encounters? Because it is not going to work in any open game.

So if Alps are the problem, if they pop up in every second game you play and you don't know how to deal with them, change your crew and try to cover your bases. We already have quite a few good hints from the recent threads:

- Bring AoE. Models exploding on death, models capable of moving in and applying damage to models within x" from them - everything which Alps cannot run from and which will damage other Nightmares too.

- Bring models that do not have to use Strike action to damage and Walk action to move. This is very crew-specific, but every faction has this or that which fulfills the parameters.

The thing about the Alp bomb is that you almost never have to activate the model(s) that are getting bombed. You can always activate something else within charge/walk/:ranged strike range and use it to thin down the Alps, before they slow down their target. Obviously you need to deploy right to have that option, and you don't know what part of your crew the Dreamer will pick for his initial strike, but at the same time if you separate your army into 2~3 groups supporting each other, you can guarantee, I think, at least an equal exchange...

We're getting almost no practical solutions to this one, unlike with Pandora. I suspect that understanding how to deal with the Dreamer gives players such a big advantage in tournaments, nobody feels like spilling the beans just yet. Either way, I prefer players not spilling the beans and just winning against the Dreamer, because sooner or later we'll figure how they do it. Staging a *cuddle the Dreamer* campaign is far less cool a way to go about it.

Edited September 27, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Fetid Strumpet]

I'll have to respectfully disagree with you Q. Please name a master other than the dreamer who can not only kill your most important model on their first activation with 80-90% certainty and drop 2 copies of the best melee minion in the game on you, + be completely safe from retribution before you get a chance to respond.

Again I think the Dreamer himself is VERY powerful, but it is the interaction with Daydreams that pushes him over the edge.

Also you comment:

As long as there's no simultaneous activation involved, this isn't really a problem for anyone.

I'm not certain what you mean because that is exactly what the Dreamer does.

Activation 1: The Dreamer, Chompy, 2 Daydreams (perhaps a 3rd as well depending on crew construction)

Activation 2: Bond activate 2 Lelu + 1 Lilitu

How is that not simultaneous activation?

If you are frustrated about my vehement opinion that the Dreamer set up as is is an extremely negative play experience as well as being OP I am equally frustrated by your constant denial that this isn't a problem. If your intention is that this is perfectly ok could I petition for generic Resser totem that will allow me to gain 1 SS to my cache for every undead I take as well as allow me to drop 3 flesh constructs in a group anywhere on the board for 1 full activation?

[Adran]

Part of the the problem with these discussions is that the dreamer has several very powerful options in the way he plays. And things which counter one of his plans don't help so much against the other.

People seem to focus on the alp bomb a lot. And it is a powerful tactic until you have learnt how to handle it. Restricting Alps actually adds short cuts to the Dreamer player as I'd much rather face 6 alps than 3 alps and Copellius/Teddy/Lelu in turns of knowing how to deal with the problems.

And when people offer advice against how to face the Alp bomb (as this thread I assume was supoosed to do) people then bring up a completly different Dreamer style crew whcih will make the advice previously given less helpfull.

In Answer to Fetid Strumpet above, I would use my activation to kill lilitu if possible. That stops the bond. If she was not at risk then I would Kill one of the Lelus.

Its not perfect, but I typically have several models that can hit hard enough on my turn to be able to do that. If I have any Companion activations, then this is the time to use them.

If you break down the Dreamer into several different lists then there are counters to each of his lists. Its his ability to have so many different lists/styles that you can't counter them all that causes the most problems.

If Its any help, I've played a game where I was able to kill the Dreamer on my first activation with show girls. Its certainly made our local dreamer player pay a bit more attention to how he starts the game. And the key is making your opponent react to you, not you reacting to him.

Even if the chances of me doing so are less than 50%, the fact that his approach was completely ruined threw him that game.

I think Every faction can write a list that allows them to attack any point of the board (terrain permitting) on the first activation.

Sure, the Dreamer is probably the consistently hardest master at the moment.

I can't comment on your play experiences, but facing the dreamer isn't a negative play experience for me. Prehaps I prefer underdog status, or have a greater enjoyment of solving the problem.

It does feel like walking a tightrope, where one slip will cost me the game, but a get a similar feel (although not always all game) against most good players when I play them at Malifaux.

Oh, and Frame for murder the member of your crew best able to answer which type of dreamer list you are facing. Its a nice feeling to know either your answer is going to be able to do something, or you've earnt 2 VPs before you have even had a turn.

Edited September 27, 2011 by Adran
added Frame for Murder

[magicpockets]

#1: Unless you are playing a friendly game you are not going to know the bomb is comming, so discussing things to do about it in a vacuum is pointless as you won't even know what crew yourself will have to attempt to deal with it.

Come on, you can't says that and seriously talk about vacuums lol. In any competitive setup you'll have a very good idea of who is playing Dreamer and if they tend to Alp bomb. You're talking like tournies etc are vacuums where you only find out what you're playing against when they whip the cloth hiding the models from you away.

If The Dreamer determines yo have too good a shot at just taking his bomb out, and his strat and schemes allow he can just use them as a swarm of significant models. Because of their Tarnkap and ability to hide behind terrain because of Ht1 they are going to be very difficult to take out from range, and there will be alot of them, so in order to deny them objectives you are going to have to go after them and it will take a good number of activations to do it.

Alps are very squishy, this is not a good tactic. It's something you "can" do, but it's not an "alternative" to bombing.

===

Okay, I wanted to share some ideas and thoughts from my point of view -

I've never been afraid of Alp Bombs and I think with some strategy they're not as big an issue as people make out, although having an inclination your opponent will be taking them does help in your crew selection. However, not always.

For example, we all know what goes into a 35ss Colette Crew. But (0) sword dance from a duet and Cassandra will quickly put paid to any Alps you've bombed as the strike doesn't cause wounds on the "sword dancing" model. Also, Orchestral Crescendo will decimate them. And Use Soulstone gives all models healing flips to recover any damage you did get on them - hell, the duet can even do a healing flip as a (0) action. Alps vs Collette = bad idea.

Re Hamelin, I got to try some ideas out last night which destroyed the alp bomb that got dropped on me -

Firstly, I took Alps myself which I've always found a good idea when facing the Dreamer (I use an Alp bodyguard with Pandora against Dreamer too). These didn't do as much as I'd hoped, but I think I made a couple of judgement mistakes which I'll fix next time. Having said that, I'm not sure he even needs to take the Alps - maybe another sorrow and Canine remains or something?

Secondly, Sorrows have an ability which causes a wound per failed WP test within 3" and they can copy spells from a linked model.

Third, when Stolen die or are sacrificed they give out -2wp and - if killed by a non-soulless model - they force a wp->13 duel or give paralyzed (sure you want to drop an insidious madness on me now?)

Lastly, Nix and Emptiness is brilliant for adding an extra to their models resist flips - bearing in mind it affects ss flips too (really? yup - read the rules ) which can really p*ss LCB off.

So, that's the WP setup, now to put it in action. The trick is to keep your models tightly packed (forget about summoning rats) with 2 or 3 sorrows in the middle, nix covering a large area as possible (for his 3" emptiness), and stolen in LOS of Hamelin. Also, the Wretch is a nice addition in there somewhere. Re your Alps (if you take them) use them to "dissuade" your opponent from putting his models on a certain side of your block. (Note aside from sorrows that nothing is affected by terrifying)

Now when you get bombed you simply activate Hamelin who is WP 8 (companion the totem if you want to) and chances are you'll pass the wp->12 test considering a ss gives you two cards to add (if you don't, hey - at least you got rid of some low cards). Then kill his entire Alp Bomb

1. Sacrifice a stolen - use an ability which has sacrificing a model as a requirement ((0) useless toy is good) to give everything within 6" (including your own alps and sorrows btw) -2wp. Also, by doing this within 4" of Nix (which it will be) he gets a free (0) action - hello (0) Emptiness for 3" of negative duel flips.

2. Cast Irresistible Lure (with :+fate from useless toy which is unneeded but nice) with your cast of 7 against those alps with a WP of 2 now. Did they fail? Have they bombed so close they're within 3" of your sorrows? Oops...

3. If you only took 2 sorrows (I'd do this if I wasn't sure I was facing an Alp bomb) you'll need to rinse and repeat to kill them off.

4. Yay, you just got rats r us and have 1 or 2 AP left

Also, don't forget your totem and, if needed, your linked sorrow can cast Irresistible Lure with a soulstone too.

Another idea, let's talk emptiness and sorrows (this is devastating against anyone). Depends on if he runs off etc but based on the nightmares staying and trying to melee your face off.

1. Move Nix to the far side of LCB (10 move and remember he can go through him as Nix is a spirit).

2. Use sorrows to cast Doldrums over intervening models and onto LCB (HT4 isn't so big and clever now is it?) - cheating in a high card if possible (which will put you on a cast of 14+ if using a ten or higher)

3. LCB is now WP 3 (due to the Stolen we sacrificed, remember?) so he gets a added to that for his resist, and maybe a second flip on top if he uses a ss. He might pass, but likely he'll get paralyzed - and a big model without use SS (Teddy, Copellius etc) certainly will And of course, if he dropped a madness in there to give him extra on WP, well....

Lastly, don't miss the chance to kill daydreams with irresistible lure - you can get 4 casts of it off in turn one/two if they come into range (12") and kill them straight away. That p*sses Dreamer players off lol. Or use Obedience against Daydreams and do (1) Call Nightmares - they don;t even get to drop a single Nightmare

One more thing - use Obedience or Pipes to make models attack your Stolen. You get to do the wp->13 flip to avoid Paralyzed. What do you mean you've found a use for that 2:crows in your hand?

^^Wow, long post. Hope it helps

Edited September 27, 2011 by magicpockets

[Q'iq'el]

I'm not certain what you mean because that is exactly what the Dreamer does.

Activation 1: The Dreamer, Chompy, 2 Daydreams (perhaps a 3rd as well depending on crew construction)

Activation 2: Bond activate 2 Lelu + 1 Lilitu

How is that not simultaneous activation?

The second activation is simultaneous, but that's just 2 models. Plenty of crews can do that and a real Alpha Strike it doesn't make. The former is a chain of models activating, true, but all that achieves is popping out LCB in front of his target.

The same could be achieved with giving him a very long walk range. In essence it does not serve the same purpose as Simultaneous Activation would, because all the activations are enslaved to his movement.

But to be a true Alpha-strike, it would require "Activation 1" and "Activation 2" you list to happen one after another without any chance for the opponent to move in between and his other minions would have to activate as well. That's how the term was originally used in regards to Ortegas' famliy ability.

As is, if I understand correctly, the opponent gets to activate between the Activation 1 and the Activation 2 and this is pretty big. After Activation 1 the entire Dreamer crew is lied in front of you, within charge and cast ranges of majority of your models. Sure, they hold some hostage, the ones in Smother range, but even then you can risk activating some models in such situation.

So the question is, what are you doing in this time? After all every Master has one trick or other to inflict some serious damage on the bomb.

I can't speak about Masters I don't know very well, but I can see some options for the Masters I play:

- Lilith, if she herself is bombed, can easily withstand the Smother (soulstone if needed) and then Whirling Death, supported by further cheating/soulstoning on crucial models, could probably deal a very serious damage to the bomb.

In fact, Whirling Death is a notoriously difficult attack to pull off. Most of the time opponents avoid bunching around her - so much that I haven't used this action even once in almost half a year now. Even Transposition doesn't get me right positions anymore, because opponents are on the watch against it.

If something else in her crew was bombed, I'd activate Cherub+Lilith+Brood mother on something fast and offensive, use the Totem & maybe a soulstone to Transposition Lilith in and then Whirling Death with her. She'd get one more strike against a tougher opponent with her fast and she'd be able to bring one more model to the fray - possibly with combat expert for extra strike, to finish some of the wounded models off.

- Colette has been generally covered in the post above mine. With Mannequin powered Simultaneous Activation, Sword Dance and multitutde of pushing Triggers she has enough tools to bypass Alps defenses.

- Nicodem is somewhat of a challange, but as long as you can ensure he's not going to find himself engaged, his set of tools isn't that bad either. Plenty of wounds means he can take Feed on Dreams even from 8 Alps, never mind 6 or 3. His high Wp means he probably won't lose Smother anyway.

If you keep him out of melee, you can now cast 3 Decays. If your hand is good, you can even cast it on LCB himself (after all, All done is not a given, is it?) or one of his higher minions (Coppelius, the siblings). Cheat high, soulstone and place the blast so that it hits alps for 3Dg they get no defense from. On the way, you'll probably heal the models damaged by the LCB, if still alive.

If your hand is so-so, you can cast on your own wounded minions, cheat Resist low to ensure Severe Damage and still blast the Alps for 3 Damage and heal own minions in the process. In fact, if models are close, Nicodem will be healing himself with these blasts.

If there's a model (most likely LCB or Lilitu, as they have long melee range) engaging Nicodem, Rigor Mortis is a really powerful solution and as far as I can tell, it still works on Nightmares. Proceed with 2x Decay.

Clearly Nicodem is the only master I know who'd rather deploy bunched up, against The Dreamer. However he always prefers to be bunched up, so that's not to his detriment.

His ability to simultaneously activate is lower than the other two masters, but he can do a combo with Mortimer, I believe (Zombie Companion->Embrace Death). Possible benefits include ability to raise one more minion (less Decays though) or a chance to use Mortimer to Slow or even Paralyze some of the models around Nicodem and free up his AP (if needed).

There are crews that can squeeze many more activations in between the Dreamer's Activation 1 and Activation 2.

Consider now The Dreamer needs to win initiative not to make that 2 opponent activations in between and really move first; consider also he needs his Control Hand to defend from that backslash, so he can't cheat all his attacks (in turn, if he cheats and Soulstones his attacks, it will be easier to hit his crew in counter-strike)... before he can decide to withdraw the Alp Bomb, he has to take at least that one hit.

So the chances of successful strike in turn 1 depend really on the opponent's response, right? No way it is a guaranteed success.

Edited September 27, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[karn987]

Come on, you can't says that and seriously talk about vacuums lol. In any competitive setup you'll have a very good idea of who is playing Dreamer and if they tend to Alp bomb. You're talking like tournies etc are vacuums where you only find out what you're playing against when they whip the cloth hiding the models from you away.

Alps are very squishy, this is not a good tactic. It's something you "can" do, but it's not an "alternative" to bombing.

===

Okay, I wanted to share some ideas and thoughts from my point of view -

I've never been afraid of Alp Bombs and I think with some strategy they're not as big an issue as people make out, although having an inclination your opponent will be taking them does help in your crew selection. However, not always.

For example, we all know what goes into a 35ss Colette Crew. But (0) sword dance from a duet and Cassandra will quickly put paid to any Alps you've bombed as the strike doesn't cause wounds on the "sword dancing" model. Also, Orchestral Crescendo will decimate them. And Use Soulstone gives all models healing flips to recover any damage you did get on them - hell, the duet can even do a healing flip as a (0) action. Alps vs Collette = bad idea.

Re Hamelin, I got to try some ideas out last night which destroyed the alp bomb that got dropped on me -

Firstly, I took Alps myself which I've always found a good idea when facing the Dreamer (I use an Alp bodyguard with Pandora against Dreamer too). These didn't do as much as I'd hoped, but I think I made a couple of judgement mistakes which I'll fix next time. Having said that, I'm not sure he even needs to take the Alps - maybe another sorrow and Canine remains or something?

Secondly, Sorrows have an ability which causes a wound per failed WP test within 3" and they can copy spells from a linked model.

Third, when Stolen die or are sacrificed they give out -2wp and - if killed by a non-soulless model - they force a wp->13 duel or give paralyzed (sure you want to drop an insidious madness on me now?)

Lastly, Nix and Emptiness is brilliant for adding an extra to their models resist flips - bearing in mind it affects ss flips too (really? yup - read the rules ) which can really p*ss LCB off.

So, that's the WP setup, now to put it in action. The trick is to keep your models tightly packed (forget about summoning rats) with 2 or 3 sorrows in the middle, nix covering a large area as possible (for his 3" emptiness), and stolen in LOS of Hamelin. Also, the Wretch is a nice addition in there somewhere. Re your Alps (if you take them) use them to "dissuade" your opponent from putting his models on a certain side of your block. (Note aside from sorrows that nothing is affected by terrifying)

Now when you get bombed you simply activate Hamelin who is WP 8 (companion the totem if you want to) and chances are you'll pass the wp->12 test considering a ss gives you two cards to add (if you don't, hey - at least you got rid of some low cards). Then kill his entire Alp Bomb

1. Sacrifice a stolen - use an ability which has sacrificing a model as a requirement ((0) useless toy is good) to give everything within 6" (including your own alps and sorrows btw) -2wp. Also, by doing this within 4" of Nix (which it will be) he gets a free (0) action - hello (0) Emptiness for 3" of negative duel flips.

2. Cast Irresistible Lure (with :+fate from useless toy which is unneeded but nice) with your cast of 7 against those alps with a WP of 2 now. Did they fail? Have they bombed so close they're within 3" of your sorrows? Oops...

3. If you only took 2 sorrows (I'd do this if I wasn't sure I was facing an Alp bomb) you'll need to rinse and repeat to kill them off.

4. Yay, you just got rats r us and have 1 or 2 AP left

Also, don't forget your totem and, if needed, your linked sorrow can cast Irresistible Lure with a soulstone too.

Another idea, let's talk emptiness and sorrows (this is devastating against anyone). Depends on if he runs off etc but based on the nightmares staying and trying to melee your face off.

1. Move Nix to the far side of LCB (10 move and remember he can go through him as Nix is a spirit).

2. Use sorrows to cast Doldrums over intervening models and onto LCB (HT4 isn't so big and clever now is it?) - cheating in a high card if possible (which will put you on a cast of 14+ if using a ten or higher)

3. LCB is now WP 3 (due to the Stolen we sacrificed, remember?) so he gets a added to that for his resist, and maybe a second flip on top if he uses a ss. He might pass, but likely he'll get paralyzed - and a big model without use SS (Teddy, Copellius etc) certainly will And of course, if he dropped a madness in there to give him extra on WP, well....

Lastly, don't miss the chance to kill daydreams with irresistible lure - you can get 4 casts of it off in turn one/two if they come into range (12") and kill them straight away. That p*sses Dreamer players off lol. Or use Obedience against Daydreams and do (1) Call Nightmares - they don;t even get to drop a single Nightmare

One more thing - use Obedience or Pipes to make models attack your Stolen. You get to do the wp->13 flip to avoid Paralyzed. What do you mean you've found a use for that 2:crows in your hand?

^^Wow, long post. Hope it helps

Very nice MP! Care to put that up in the Wiki under the Hamelin page for the Playing agains [Master] section? The page could also use a once over by another Hamelin player, care to give it a go? This is absolutely worth having up there.

[magicpockets]

Very nice MP! Care to put that up in the Wiki under the Hamelin page for the Playing agains [Master] section? The page could also use a once over by another Hamelin player, care to give it a go? This is absolutely worth having up there.

I'm working on the Hamelin page for the wiki as we speak sir

[karn987]

Part of the the problem with these discussions is that the dreamer has several very powerful options in the way he plays. And things which counter one of his plans don't help so much against the other.

People seem to focus on the alp bomb a lot. And it is a powerful tactic until you have learnt how to handle it. Restricting Alps actually adds short cuts to the Dreamer player as I'd much rather face 6 alps than 3 alps and Copellius/Teddy/Lelu in turns of knowing how to deal with the problems.

And when people offer advice against how to face the Alp bomb (as this thread I assume was supoosed to do) people then bring up a completly different Dreamer style crew whcih will make the advice previously given less helpfull.

In Answer to Fetid Strumpet above, I would use my activation to kill lilitu if possible. That stops the bond. If she was not at risk then I would Kill one of the Lelus.

Its not perfect, but I typically have several models that can hit hard enough on my turn to be able to do that. If I have any Companion activations, then this is the time to use them.

If you break down the Dreamer into several different lists then there are counters to each of his lists. Its his ability to have so many different lists/styles that you can't counter them all that causes the most problems.

Just want to add to this quickly..

You'd be suprrised just how many Masters can be played this way actually. Most people get indoctrinated into 1 or 2 specific style of play with a master, yet they can be extremely diverse with a little extra thought. This is mainly a Neverborn thing, but it is after all a theme of the faction. Lilith is another Master that is utterly fantastic at this. She can hit you with a 2nd turn Master kill list, a Lure list, a Young Bomb list etc. Another good one is Hoffman. Though he tends to take the same subset of models, he be played a huge number of ways. From hyper aggressive Melee Hoffman/A.Hoffman lists to defensive Harpoon and beat down lists. All of these require different methods to fully handle.

Basically, the play style diversity is not something unique to the Dreamer. Besides a few Masters, every Master can produce around this level of variety.

If Its any help, I've played a game where I was able to kill the Dreamer on my first activation with show girls. Its certainly made our local dreamer player pay a bit more attention to how he starts the game. And the key is making your opponent react to you, not you reacting to him.

I know I said that exact thing before and have many times in the past. It is EXACTLY the key. If you start playing the reactive game, you've nearly sealed your loss. You need to figure out how to make your crew put the Dreamer into a Reactive mode or at the very least, put yourself on even footing.

Is it always possible? Honestly, no. But you can usually get things onto more even footing.

Even if the chances of me doing so are less than 50%, the fact that his approach was completely ruined threw him that game.

I think Every faction can write a list that allows them to attack any point of the board (terrain permitting) on the first activation.

Sure, the Dreamer is probably the consistently hardest master at the moment.

I can't comment on your play experiences, but facing the dreamer isn't a negative play experience for me. Prehaps I prefer underdog status, or have a greater enjoyment of solving the problem.

It does feel like walking a tightrope, where one slip will cost me the game, but a get a similar feel (although not always all game) against most good players when I play them at Malifaux.

Oh, and Frame for murder the member of your crew best able to answer which type of dreamer list you are facing. Its a nice feeling to know either your answer is going to be able to do something, or you've earnt 2 VPs before you have even had a turn.

Thats good thinking out of the box! I tried to poke and prod everyone to look at this through a wider view instead of through a narrow lense but it fell on deaf ears most of the time. Strategies and Schemes, chosen and done in the right manner, can turn a turn 3 tabled game on you into a win. If you know your going to get jumped hard core, you take things like Frame For Murder. Because of the Dreamers cycle mechanics, you will always get a shot at his most expensive minions unless he choses to hide them all game. Simply, there is a lot more you can do agains the Dreamer to win, then just kill his models.

So its really nice to see this kind of thinking finally starting to show up in this thread. There have been far far to many circular arguements going back and forth. What's being said now, has half the time already been said on page 1 or 2. New ideas are very encouraging though and I think your definitly on the right track. It's not an auto win for the Dreamer, if he choses to blitz you turn 1, he has nearly as much chance of losing turn 1 as you do. It's a huge risk for him, and people who don't realize this haven't played him enough or against an opponent who knows the Dreamer. His Alpha strike is fragile, Slow to Die alone can easily screw up his entire Alpha Strike let alone a variety of other abilities. "Know Thy Enemy" goes a long way with the Dreamer.

Edited September 27, 2011 by karn987

[karn987]

I'm working on the Hamelin page for the wiki as we speak sir

My hat is off to you sir! I look forward to reading it I made a discussion post on the page, check it out when you get a chance.

Sorry for the side track! Back to the topic!

@Q: Those are some great strategies Q. You should put them up on those Masters Pages on the Wiki for the How to play against [Master] section, people could really use them man. They seem very sound to me, and that Lilith one is one I like to use myself. Otherwise, Bleed Black Blood (from the BBS) is always a good way at nuking Alps that get to close. She has a number of options basically.

Edited September 27, 2011 by karn987

[Fetid Strumpet]

I've tried to rewrite my response a few times and the words just never come out right. To those who are defending the Dreamer, again I respect your opinions, but I don't agree with your analysis. I still feel that the Dreamer is OP. I've continually stated my reasons, and will continue to do so. The options the Dreamer currently has in game make him way too strong, and even in your own examples you are counting on play mistakes from the Dreamer to carry you through the game.

I agree with karn in that one of the secrets to doing well against the Dreamer is to try and put pressure on him, but again, unless the player playing the Dreamer makes mistakes, that is very hard to do and only a few masters can do so with anything like reliability.

So I have to continue my complete bafflement that many of you seem to be in complete agreement that the Dreamer is "100% working fine no changes needed". What is his balancing factors? Perhaps if you could tell me from just a mechanical standpoint without any player input what balances the Dreamer + his daydreams.

I'll give an example, Seamus. Please don't turn this into a Seamus vs. Dreamer thread, I'm only listing Seamus because I know him and am listing what his weaknesses are.

Seamus' strengths are balanced in several ways.

His is very resilient, but not excessively lethal.

Firstly he has a very low SS cache of 2.

His Melee dmg and attack skill are on the low side of average, and his gun, while very deadly, is balanced by the fact that he has only average skill in with is shooting it (5), and can only fire it once per activation.

He has very little synergy with the Resser model line. Those he has direct synergy with can absorb a good amount of dmg relative to their SS cost, but can't do much dmg at all, and can be shut down by Immune to influence heavy crews.

His ability to summon new models is very restricted, There are only 5 cards in the entire deck that will allow him to cast his raise spell, and he is limited to only two low dmg minions with that spell.

So looking at that could someone please let me know what the Dreamer's non play related weaknesses are?