A discussion of Book 3's Big Big Spoiler

[Buhallin]

I've been avoiding this thread for a long time, waiting for book to arrive and then (slowly) getting through the fluff.

DONE!

My thoughts:

- The Teddy story is probably one of the best pieces of fiction I've seen in a gaming expansion, ever. It ties together so many different elements, it captures the feel of Malifaux on a very personal level, and the viewpoint flip with Teddy and how he(?) perceives the world was awesome. It's rare that gaming fiction can play out like a tragedy, but this one did.

- I love the depth of interaction between the factions. Again looking at other gaming universe fiction (that I've read), there's typically no crossover at all. The Warhammer worlds are all rigidly divided. Warmachine's characters pretty much never interact across faction unless it's on a battlefield. Seeing the connections that occur between the major characters helps the world feel deep and real.

- And so does the faction fiction. Some are lamenting the lack of development of certain masters, but I loved that these pieces were devoted to the underlings and more common folk. Maybe Perdita didn't see as much face time as she might, but the insight into the Witchling mind and how they are made/trained, and the relationship between the Arcanists and those who hunt them, was interesting to me. Most games draw a very sharp line between the heroes (who get names) and everyone else (who are just nameless mooks there for cannon fodder). I like that the stories gave us actual people for some of the scrubs.

Finally, I'd like to drag a comment from another thread in to this. In one of the previous discussions, Jonas commented that he couldn't think of a lazier way to handle the avatar change than the big magical wave, and it wasn't interesting at all. At the time I thought it a bit unfair, because you couldn't really do 20 individual stories... but they did.

The Event may be a trigger, but almost all the avatar development is very personal. Seamus, Sonnia, Rasputina, McMourning, Perdita, Zoraida... All get distinctly personal stories, all of which are different. More importantly, the avatars themselves are not all the same. Who they are, what they are, are all unique - Seamus merged and manipulated by the Gorgon, Sonnia actually possessed, Rasputina unlocking new abilities as she resists December.

Jonas is obviously dissatisfied with the fluff, and I doubt anything's going to convince him otherwise - but calling it lazy and generic really isn't a fair assessment.

So, major thumbs up from me on the fluff. It's very easy for game fluff to turn into a checklist of appearanced by new models for their own sake (I'm looking at you, Warmachine) and it was great getting stories that I actually wanted to read for a change.

[Jonas Albrecht]

but calling it lazy and generic really isn't a fair assessment.

Go on, tell me why.

[mistercactus]

He explained why already.

[Jonas Albrecht]

He explained why already.

No, explained to me that he thought it wasn't fair because they couldn't do a mass of individual stories. Then he goes on to say they did. There's a mention of all the character stories, and finally he states that what I said wasn't a fair assessment without going into detail as to why.

I stand by it. The Event (or as book 3 puts it, The Purple Wave), was a lazy shortcut to explaining why the characters have the ability to go super-saiyan now. Not to mention it saddles us with Cherufe, the unnecessary surprise villain/Tyrant-Entity. They have become a complete per-book gimmick. All this while the Governor-General ends on the same tempo as last time, patting himself on the back of an unseen plan that's about to come to fruition (maybe).

Edited September 9, 2011 by Jonas Albrecht

[snord]

I really loved most of the fluff in Book 3 and need to say it is one of the best fluff for any game I ever read. But if there is one single line that grabbed my attention more than everything else is (please allow me to quote):

"We thought that Daw's sacrifice would strengthen the dam and hold them all at bay."

The quote above + the Teddy story really intrigued me..

Who really was Jack Daw and what really happened to him? how would he being sacrificed/killed strengthen the damn? any known piece of fiction about it that I am missing?

[Buhallin]

I stand by it. The Event (or as book 3 puts it, The Purple Wave), was a lazy shortcut to explaining why the characters have the ability to go super-saiyan now.

It's not fair because this is wrong.

When you made the comment, we all thought it was just The Event that hulked everyone out. Hence the initial reaction that it was lazy, and mine that it wasn't reasonable to do individual stories for everyone.

But it's not The Event. Or more accurately, it's not JUST that. Some get more detail than others, and some are larger scale than others, but each is rather directly personal. Rasputina develops hers as a defense against December. Sonnia when merged with Cherufe, Seamus when he's inhabited by the Grave Spirit, and then merged with the Gorgon. Kirai looks like it was Ikiryo who was empowered, not her, which has some very interesting implications for who's really in charge (and is something that she was likely moving towards anyway). Same goes for the Viks, whose involvement has often been more about the Masamune than themselves.

None of this actually relied on The Event to occur. The only thing The Event does is give them a hook to make it all happen closely enough chronologically that they can reasonably put all of them in the same book at the same time, and cover the masters who they cannot afford to give the space for the deeper stories.

I'm also not sure where you're getting the idea of a "per-book gimmick". They started with the Grave Spirit and December, added the Plagued in Book 2, and now Cherufe. The deserted nature of Malifaux when the Breach was discovered ALWAYS pointed to some large, in-the-past Big Bad, and the books have been on a steady march of revelation as to who/what they were.

I'm curious what you think they should have done instead of what they did? If you're going to think it lazy and generic, you must have some better idea of how it could have been handled?

[Jonas Albrecht]

None of this actually relied on The Event to occur. The only thing The Event does is give them a hook to make it all happen closely enough chronologically that they can reasonably put all of them in the same book at the same time, and cover the masters who they cannot afford to give the space for the deeper stories.

I'm also not sure where you're getting the idea of a "per-book gimmick". They started with the Grave Spirit and December, added the Plagued in Book 2, and now Cherufe. The deserted nature of Malifaux when the Breach was discovered ALWAYS pointed to some large, in-the-past Big Bad, and the books have been on a steady march of revelation as to who/what they were.

I'm curious what you think they should have done instead of what they did? If you're going to think it lazy and generic, you must have some better idea of how it could have been handled?

To the first part, you can't have it both ways. Either the Purple Wave was the crux of all this hulking out, or it wasn't. If it is, my point stands. If not, then it was a distraction that didn't need to be in the book at all.

Yeah, Malifaux is a place where a Bad Thing Happened. And while past is prologue, retreading the Tyrant Wars instead continuing to weave interfaction conflict (i.e. the reason nearly all of us bought into the game). They're simply not needed to tell a good story in Malifaux. I would much rather read about Sonnia's chess game against the Arcanists, see the Ortegas reap the whirlwind of their actions against the Neverborn, follow Colette as she walks a tightrope trying to keep her cover while having so many eyes on her. I find this more all far far more interesting than the release of the Generic Fire Based World Devourer.

Finally, to your challenge. Off the top of my head:

Walking the story back a bit, there is no Purple Wave. Instead, The Plagued was looking for a device he or one of the other Tyrants hastily created upon realizing what their enemy had done. It's a device meant to restore him to his pre-Death power. The events in the book play out the same otherwise. Kirai comes into her ability to manifest her vengeful spirit and destroys Hamelin, and the Necropolis comes down on Lady J, the Judge, and also Nicodem. Meanwhile, the Ortegas haven't been sent to look for ruins, but have been sent deep into the bayou, ordered (they are Guild Officers, after all) by Lucius to put a stop to the increasing Gremlin raids. Further into the swamp than they've ever been, they find themselves ambushed by Nephilim. Separated, they being a nightmarish escape back to Latigo. Nino, Santiago, Francisco, and Papa Loco manage to regroup, but Perdita is lost. Worse, she finds herself being stalked by something.

Meanwhile, the Plague that swept through the city has severely weakened the Guild's ability to enforce order, and others are smelling blood in the water. Ramos begins agitating the Union toward conflict. He starts walking the Guild towards checkmate through strikes and sabotage, while also assembling the Order of the Chimera and Cult of December to act as further isolating forces. No supplies make it from the mines and towns, and nothing from the city gets to them.

Lady Justice and the Judge are pulled from the rubble, a party having followed Ryle there. He suddenly left the Guild headquarters, and demolished anyone who stood in his way, until he reached his brother. Justice is brought in, and McMourning off all people is ordered to operate on her. Under the eyes of Lucius, the good Doctor agonizes over this chance to end the greatest enemy of the Resurrectionists, knowing that doing so will do too much to cement the suspicions growing toward him. In the end, cowardice wins out and he saves her life. Nicodem lies dead, buried in the rubble. Strangely, once the Guild presence is gone, all manner of dead begin showing up, digging through the debris.

That's just for starters. I'd do more, but work approaches.

[Dumb Luck]

the increasing Gremlin raids.

I like that bit.

[Cornelious1424]

See, then it's Warmachine fluff or even worse...Warhammer fluff, IMHO. I personally love that there is a much bigger picture than just the obvious factions duking it out in the streets of Malifaux. To me that's obvious in game play. The Faction fluff is a better place for the conflicts between each faction.

[Buhallin]

To the first part, you can't have it both ways. Either the Purple Wave was the crux of all this hulking out, or it wasn't. If it is, my point stands. If not, then it was a distraction that didn't need to be in the book at all.

These really aren't the only two options. The Event can be something else important to the world while contributing to the evolution of the Avatars, and still not the sole cause of it. Could they have just left out The Event? Probably. But for my own view, if every master in the game JUST HAPPENED to run into all these challenges at the same time, and JUST HAPPENED to manifest themselves as avatars at the same time, it would feel way more artificial and forced and lazy than The Event ever did.

And honestly, I don't see much real difference between what you suggest and what they did, at least as far as depth of story goes. The only real change is that it focuses where you want it to focus, which is in the interfaction conflict, rather than the large world-shaking doom.

Which is fine - you're perfectly welcome to dislike the direction it's going. But that doesn't make anything they've done with the story lazy or generic, just because you don't like what they're doing with it. Personally, I agree with Cornelius - what you're suggestion sounds pretty much like Warmachine's fluff. "Hey, we have factions that fight each other. Lets write about them fighting!" Yawn.

You can like it or not, but I'll still maintain that your criticism has more to do with you disliking the direction of the story than any fair assessment of that story.

[Jonas Albrecht]

"Your criticism is based on the fact that you don't like it!" is about a good a place as any to stop having this discussion. Which I'm honestly tired of anyway.

You're right though. I'd rather read about Masters pursuing their own agendas (what you're calling Faction Fighting), than what we're getting. I have absolutely zero excitement for Book 4, because I can't escape the feeling that it's going to be able some kind of godawful piece where the various masters put aside their conflicts to take on Cherufe. I would be happy to be wrong. If the idea of a Malifaux Team Up excites you, great. Understand that to some of us, it sounds just dreadful, and makes all of the character agendas seem pointless.

[Cornelious1424]

I have absolutely zero excitement for Book 4, because I can't escape the feeling that it's going to be able some kind of godawful piece where the various masters put aside their conflicts to take on Cherufe.

I know what you mean, and I feel like it could happen. It would be very unfortunate and would make me loose interest in any kind of story/fluff Wyrd would ever put out. I'm not saying it's going to happen, and god I hope not. Hopefully from threads like this they can escape the fate of a Masters of Malifaux vs. Cherufe showdown, but in all honesty it shouldn't have been the intended story to begin with. The problem is, book 1 was it's own story. There was no cliff hanger that left us asking, "What happens to every one?". It was a set up for what is to come, however. Book 2's story ends with a cliff hanger, in the effect of making book 3 the "resolution" of book 2. That was the mistake. As much as I love all of the fluff, it would have been much better to keep the fluff from each book separate, not entwine. However, I can't help but think Wyrd knows what they are doing and book 4 is a LONG way away anyway.

[Buhallin]

"Your criticism is based on the fact that you don't like it!" is about a good a place as any to stop having this discussion. Which I'm honestly tired of anyway.

<shrug> It's hard not to come to that conclusion. Your issues seem to be largely based on the direction the story is going, with The Event itself as a minor side note. As I've pointed out, there's plenty of personal expression in the evolution of the avatars - you really haven't done anything to try and dispute that, honestly. Your response to "How would you do it without the event?" skewed more towards "How I'd get rid of the Tyrants."

You're right though. I'd rather read about Masters pursuing their own agendas (what you're calling Faction Fighting), than what we're getting. I have absolutely zero excitement for Book 4, because I can't escape the feeling that it's going to be able some kind of godawful piece where the various masters put aside their conflicts to take on Cherufe. I would be happy to be wrong. If the idea of a Malifaux Team Up excites you, great. Understand that to some of us, it sounds just dreadful, and makes all of the character agendas seem pointless.

Which masters aren't pursuing their own agendas (at least to the extent that they're getting face time)? McMourning's trying creepy new stuff and trying to avoid getting caught, Rasputina's cementing her hold on the cult and trying to avoid getting clobbered by December (which she always was), and on and on.

I don't want some massive teamup against the Tyrants either, but have we really had any indication that that's coming? So far, each of the Tyrant encounters has been largely personal - the closest thing to a teamup has been Seamus and Samael, and there's a strong argument that that was all Seamus.

I can understand that what you describe sounds dreadful. I'd even agree with it, although with the startling admission that I'd probably actually want to <gasp!> read it before passing judgment... But you really don't know that that's what's coming. Better to freak out a year in advance and declare the writers weak and lazy, I suppose.

[Jonas Albrecht]

Sorry dude, I really did mean I was tired of talking about it. Take an internet victory point or whatever, but the fire's pretty much out for me regarding fluff, good or ill.

[nerdelemental]

I've been avoiding responding to this thread because anything I might say is probably going to make it sound like I'm being defensive. Those who know me probably would agree that I'm pretty open to criticism that's both positive as well as negative.

So, I'm really just going to address some misconceptions or questions that seems to have come up, even though there's a totally separate thread I created for this very topic that I check into with more regularity.

I suppose the notion perpetuated about "some big showdown with Cherufe and it'll be a full faction team-up!" didn't originate by anyone with a tophat. I'm kinda sure now that it's Jonas, himself, that's begun a witch hunt on the topic. Now, some have suggested that it's threads like this that might warn us to go in one direction or another, but that, too, is only marginally likely. Not only am I well underway with the next story, but the full outline of it has been in creation since well before the current book dropped. It's more likely that when I see some element of confusion I'll find a place to shoe-horn in an answer to make people see [whatever it is] more clearly. So, whether we plan to have a full faction showdown against Cherufe or not is something we'll do because it's been in planning for a long time. That said, we could just have likely have had a full faction showdown against December (which would have been the bar set in Book I, but Book II had only 'Tina, and then Book III had 'Tina and her minions); or a full faction showdown against The Plagued even though it turned out to be just the Ikyrio that did it. Justice was in the vicinity but she had no idea about Plagued. Hoffman was pursuing it, but had no idea there was a Tyrant involved and didn't contribute to the plague-busting. We could have had a full faction extravaganza about the Gorgon and the Grave Spirit but we only had Seamus and Molly, and Hopkins was there but didn't really know what the hell he was doing other than trying to kill Seamus.

As for the accusation of lazy....well, that's fine. It'd be hard for anyone to accuse me of laziness on any level. But that's opinion based upon assumption and point of view of a story plot element not sitting well. Okay with me. You cannot please everyone, ever. We should have a Wyrd Writer's Camp sometime, though. It'll set that laziness issue to rest. I have whole notebooks on the planning and that's the stuff I jot down by hand. We don't even need to open my electronic files.

Here's the jist: The Event was set in motion by a single Tyrant. By releasing the Red Cage it punched a hole into the aether. That released a metric butt-ton of spiritual energy. Hey! That's just like soulstones! Only they're very brief. Soulstones hold them. Like a battery. That flood of energy wasn't supposed to matter to the human-types although they did temporarily puff up. Plague was the one ready to consume them and ascend. If he did that then the excess energy wouldn't be of consequence as he'd just destroy everyone. He didn't ascend. Now, people are aware of a greater potential. And there's a bit more of that magical energy stuff in the air. They're going avatar. Some easier than others. Some more enthusiastically. Some more desperately (Rasputina).

The story arc with the Tyrants is mostly wrapped up. You all just read the climax of it. December is shut down (but still around - just phenomenally diminished). Gorgon and Grave Spirit, too. They're now diminished but still around - and both (maybe) vieing for control over Seamus, trapped in his head. Plagued cannot ascend. He's barely even a single man again. Cherufe is around now and he's a bad mofo. But so is Sonnia Criid. Haven't you guys been reading? She's nothing to be taken lightly.

So, Jonas and others: I guess I could apologize that the story's going where you don't want it to go, but it seems like you have no idea where it's going. That's a good thing. That's what I want. If you could predict where it's going then I'm not really doing my job that well. Judging by how you clearly don't really know where it's going then I'll just have to smile and nod and say "hope the future story(s) works better for you." No apologies for this one. I'm kinda proud of it.

[Jonas Albrecht]

Again, happy to be wrong.

[Buhallin]

Sorry dude, I really did mean I was tired of talking about it. Take an internet victory point or whatever, but the fire's pretty much out for me regarding fluff, good or ill.

And that's fine. But you really weren't the only other person in that discussion, and the rest of us can keep right on discussing it even if you're tired of it, right?

[Jonas Albrecht]

And that's fine. But you really weren't the only other person in that discussion, and the rest of us can keep right on discussing it even if you're tired of it, right?

When someone quotes me, I'm assuming they're trying to engage me in conversation.

[Buhallin]

When someone quotes me, I'm assuming they're trying to engage me in conversation.

Or just replying to you in the thread of conversation. It's not a personal challenge - really

Even if you and I are the main conversators (which Firefox tells me isn't a word) it doesn't mean there aren't interested parties. I'll even say that it's possible I may ACTUALLY be trying to engage you in conversation - for the purpose of CONVERSATION! Shocking, I know, since it rarely comes with an accumulation of internet points (have I won yet?) but there is some slim potential...

So, in short: If you're tired of the conversation, you can certainly move on. I don't think it'll hurt anyone's feelings. But please don't paint my continued response on a topic I still find interesting as some sort of cheap internet oneupmanship.

[Jonas Albrecht]

So, in short: If you're tired of the conversation, you can certainly move on. I don't think it'll hurt anyone's feelings. But please don't paint my continued response on a topic I still find interesting as some sort of cheap internet oneupmanship.

You're right, of course. I apologize for that remark, a symptom of the stated fatigue.

[ThePandaDirector]

Well I just finished Twisting Fates and have to say I feel just about everything all parties have mentioned bar the extremes of "o.m.g. best/worst thing EVER!"

Likes

Fleshing out characters and shaking things up. I am so glad I picked up Marcus and may pick McMourning up in the future. I always felt put off by his character - or lack of - before book 3, and didn't like Myranda at all, but now, I love him. Thinking of him as a professor, a learned explorer who thinks that nature is superior to nurture even through the natural - what others call abonimable - manipulation of genes. It adds so much more to him and gives plenty of avenues for non-cliched illuminations of his background.

I liked the faction stories, the way the Stalker story unravelled, the quirkiness of Molly and Ponto. Philip was OK, but I think Molly's story went between good and bad Tim Burton. The Arcanist one was good, especially because it didn't have a Master and felt like a good ol' fashioned heist story. The Neverborn one was wonderful and beautifully weaved, I didn't think it dark as others interpreted it - if anything Warmachine, Infinity and Warhammer are a joke, not very grim at all. Malifaux is much more, at its best it is a perfect contrast between innocence and nightmare, science and fantasy, but at it's worst it reads like a bad comic cartoon sketch. The Outcast story was good if onlyfor what it implies for the future.

I think in terms of character development you succeeded, Master's I had little to interest in - Pandora, Lilith, Sonnia, etc - are now much more enganging. As someone who isn't very good at filling in the blanks of someone elses story (it's different with Warhammer because it's about fluff not character), characters with little development are that, bland, while ones like Marcus who are twisted and branch out are far more engaging.

Dislikes

I am not a big fan of the Tyrants as they are now. If they are the main antagonists of the story then let them become characters themselves. It seems to me that they will become hostile extensions of the Masters they occupy (makes me think of the Darkness comic/game, which I love). I became hopeful with 'Tina's defiance, particulary the whole "you will serve me" part. I think these Tyrants need to be more than elemental embodiments with a voice, you never see GW trying to actually make the Chaos Gods characters, they made the choice and so they are just background forces that explain some non-character centred fluff. If Plague, etc are going to be waking around they can't just be bland figures that mouth of hints of story elements in their dull gibberish tongue.

Justice is still bland, that is all.

I also find it strange that a lot of the fights in the story are either quite big or small, with a lot of contradiction of what is achieved in the game. So far it is not possible to have a game without a Master/Henchman, the large fights - say Book 2's climax - are unattainable if you plan on purchasing Mindless Zombies and Rats, unless you love spending lots of money on a very large group of 3 sculpts. Plus the larger conflicts are what people fear gameplay wise, they fit in the story but they can't be copied effectively. Then the really small engagements are equally unsupported, such as Samael versus Seamus or the intimate investiations of the awesome Witchling Stalker and Handler Thorpe (I mean how do I explain Sonnia in that scenario?).

I also think the story moves quite fast, despite the extra - and simply better - stories developing characters. I think the story suffers from being annual, and deserves a more sustained build up over the year in the lead up to the big plot development. I think GW's Storm of Chaos campaign had a wonderful build up through the WD but then the actual final story was completley anti-climatic. Wyrd has the opposite problem.

If anything I think Wyrd have enough to brach out the character/faction fluff as they release models, with little bits of main plot all leading to the Expansion book that advances the main plot in a more detailed and characterful way.

But overall well don, it was much better thn before. Go Marcus

[Fetid Strumpet]

I'm with you Panda, I liked the Molly story, was not in love, read not happy, with Philip's characterization. I'll admit it's most likely because I had my own interpretation of his character and I'm exceptionally loath to let it go.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

I actually liked the Molly and Philip relationship much more than the other books. They have developed more individualism and have even manipulated Seamus into having himself killed so they could bind him with the Gorgon along with weakening the Grave Spirit in one shot.

After all that is said and done Seamus makes a verbal fuss at Philip and Molly but then pretty much let's it go.

Molly and Philip are no longer just puppets for Seamus any more, and them together seems to make quite a quirky team. Don't underestimate Philip, he has seen things few others have and is now the only one some what sane enough to use that knowledge. And Molly's silent intellect has grown infinity since her blood gurgling mess that fell into the grave in book one.

I hope to see more of them, as they hold many secrets that many would want to possess.

As far as Seamus goes, he seems to be toying with others as he is working to attain a goal beyond what we can imagine at this time. Kind of like a Joker's sinister plot. It all looks like accidents, psychopathic outbursts and random mayhem until the end when everything unfolds to reveal that he had planned it all to look that way.

Of course I could be reading more into what is there than there really is, but that is how I see it.

[Sholto]

@PandaDirector, FetidStrumpet and Murphy'sLawyer - I am curious, how did Philip differ from expectations? (I know how I would answer that question, I just want to know how you would)

Lol @ Tim Burton! I will happily take that comparison, even to Bad Tim Burton

[edonil]

I don't know about everyone else, but I will say, thinking back on it, that Philip has become adjusted to death far quicker than I'd expect...then again, he had been in a downward spiral of sanity when he died, so if that continued out...