A (fun) rant about "Best Painted"

[Jonas Albrecht]

Granted, I'd love to be able to snap up Best Painted awards simply for having great taste in women, but I think Tuesday would want to get renown for her work.

[Yazza]

well, we have some very good painters over here, so who knows, he might not even get the award

and its always exciting to see great looking minis

if it said "best lookign crew (should be painted yourself)" would it make more sense to you or just the concept that bast looking crew is seperate rom the painter?

[magicpockets]

well, we have some very good painters over here, so who knows, he might not even get the award

Lol, my post wasn't aimed at Burning Tree (although the jesting on my roadtrip thread is what got me thinking) - I just know Mitch is busting his ass to get them painted in time for me so would be cool if he had a shot at going up against you guys in the painting stakes

if it said "best lookign crew (should be painted yourself)" would it make more sense to you or just the concept that bast looking crew is seperate rom the painter?

I think that's where my issue is, I don't get why the best looking crew can't be separate from the painter. Fair play if it is, but it shouldn't be

[Yazza]

but to be fair, a best painter contest should include the entire painters collection, otherwise flukes could up or down a score

[Tuesday]

I think that's where my issue is, I don't get why the best looking crew can't be separate from the painter. Fair play if it is, but it shouldn't be

Is your painter cool with you taking prizes for their work? Would you let them know you're entering the contest beforehand? Or wait until after?

That's really what it comes down to, I think. It still doesn't seem quite fair to me-- if I painted and based my own crew from scratch, spending hours or even days to get all of them looking just right, only to show up and find out that the guy next to me just basically ordered his prize, I'd be peeved. If I painted a crew for another guy who turned around and (indirectly or not, since it's usually assumed that you painted your own in these contests) claimed it as his work in a contest without telling me, I'd be peeved.

But if you're upfront about everything-- walk in all 'Hey, I didn't paint this crew but I expect to be allowed in the contest anyway because of I'm splitting hairs about the title'-- and everybody else involved is (inexplicably) happy with you doing this, I could not care less.

You wouldn't get beans if I were judging, but at least you were honest.

Besides, I don't get how the crew can really stand separate from the painter when it comes to accepting prize money/items. They're inanimate objects. There is seriously no way to give them prizes without giving you prizes, unless the only prize is a teeny blue ribbon for each model. (Note to self: Make teeny blue ribbons.) They can't spend a check.

This is silly.

Edited September 3, 2011 by Tuesday

[magicpockets]

Is your painter cool with you taking prizes for their work?

Considering they got paid for doing the work I'd expect them to be (as long as people know they painted the models).

No-one is suggesting misrepresenting who has painted the minis, but best painted crew is best painted crew. I don't care if you spend months painting, basing, converting, etc your crew - if it doesn't look as good as mine and it's a best painted crew contest then I should win. You judge the paint on the models - that's it.

[El Indio]

I believe this thread wins the Best Bandied Semantics award.

If I pay a gourmet chef to create my entry for a baking competition, is it the same as a gourmet chef entering the baking competition himself? After all, it's a baking competition; it's not a best baker competiton, right? Right? Why can't I plaigarize another writer's composition and enter it into a story contest? It's a story contest, not a writer contest, right? Right?

This is like the owner of an oil painting winning an award for "Best Portrait." Yes, it is the best portait around, and yes, it is technically your property, but you didn't do any of the brushwork. Even if you give due credit after you win, you've still violated the rules to get there, which is cheating by any other name, regardless of what professional baseball players say.

Painting and modeling awards are intended to reward those who did the hard work of, well, painting and modeling. I don't care what they're called, although, after reading this thread, I believe the word "painter" should be included somewhere in the title. Perhaps, "Best Painter of a Submitted Group of Miniatures (Henceforth to be Known as 'Army'), who is also the Owner of said Army." We can even make the trophy a bronzed polygraph machine.

[magicpockets]

A brilliant reply to which I have no answer

[Mike3838]

Its always been pretty clear to me that the prize is intended for the best painter and not the best painted crew.

As for claiming the prize on behalf of the actual painter, I don't much like the idea. There'd be no way of ensuring the painter was present and then it's pretty much become a painting competition "by correspondence". To me that would be the equivalent of a player competing in the tournament itself by phoning in his moves from off site. I'd say both examples go against the spirit/aim of the tournament of gathering a bunch of players together for a laugh.

Mike

[Hookers]

"Best Painter of a Submitted Group of Miniatures (Henceforth to be Known as 'Army'), who is also the Owner of said Army." We can even make the trophy a bronzed polygraph machine.

This is now the name of any painting awards I have in all of my future events.

Now that is how a lawyer names an award

[Math Mathonwy]

Miniatures hobby has several components to it. One is playing, one is painting and there's even a social aspect to it since the game is less about "winning a million dollars" than about having fun since this is a hobby as opposed to a profession (list building could be seen as a separate skill set as well, and why not converting, too).

Tournaments aim to cater somewhat to all of these aspects through rewarding good play and giving out separate best painted and best sportsmanship awards (not every time, but often).

The best general award is given to the guy who played the best out of those who showed up. The best painted award is given to the guy who painted the best out of those who showed up. I mean, you don't give out best general to ukrocky in a Chicago tournament, do you (well, unless he is there and happens to win)? People who show up get rewarded. Simple really.

[ispep]

The "it becomes a bigger wallet contest" thing is a joke. Just because Steve pays someone to paint his models, does not mean Alan is automatically unable to paint a decent figure. There are plenty of awesome painters who have never done work for someone else, and their chances of winning aren't reduced because someone else paid to have their crew done.

Should we disqualify commission painters who are playing their own armies? After all, they are paying the opportunity cost of painting their own stuff instead of painting other peoples stuff and getting paid.

[Mike3838]

Should we disqualify commission painters who are playing their own armies? After all, they are paying the opportunity cost of painting their own stuff instead of painting other peoples stuff and getting paid.

Of course not lol. They've painted their own crew. What they didn't do with the time they spent painting it is irrelevant to the painting competition surely?

Mike

[Jonas Albrecht]

Should we disqualify commission painters who are playing their own armies? After all, they are paying the opportunity cost of painting their own stuff instead of painting other peoples stuff and getting paid.

Even if such a thing mattered, of course not. They're still entering on their own merit.

[psychocamel]

Should we disqualify commission painters who are playing their own armies? After all, they are paying the opportunity cost of painting their own stuff instead of painting other peoples stuff and getting paid.

That has absolutely nothing to do with it and is a ridiculous comparison. Especially since a winner is more likely to be asked if he would commission even if he has never commissioned before. This is not about punishing people for having money or not having time, it's about rewarding people for painting their stuff really well.

The main point of the competition is to award the person who painted his model the best.

That's it!

The wording technically can mean otherwise, but the intent is clear, well established and backed up by the rules.

[Justin]

The next time I attend a tournament, I'm going to sponsor someone to play for me and then collect the trophy if they win.

[ispep]

The intent is for a well painted crew to receive recognition for being well painted, regardless of who painted it. Its generally an extra bonus of a gaming tournament, not specifically a painting competition.

If you are going to disqualify professionally painted armies, you should disqualify all of them, not just the ones someone chose to pay for.

Also, if I were a commission painter, I would feel insulted that somehow my time and efforts weren't worth anything just because I wasn't the one playing the army.

[Jonas Albrecht]

The intent is for a well painted crew to receive recognition for being well painted, regardless of who painted it. Its generally an extra bonus of a gaming tournament, not specifically a painting competition.

That's an interesting interpretation of Painting awards. I'm not certain it holds up to scrutiny.

But by all means, award the best painted crew there. However, if the painter is irrelevant to to the award, why is the person who brought it not? Seems to me the only prize in those situations should be some photos on a website somewhere.

Or a brush set.

[Math Mathonwy]

The "it becomes a bigger wallet contest" thing is a joke. Just because Steve pays someone to paint his models, does not mean Alan is automatically unable to paint a decent figure. There are plenty of awesome painters who have never done work for someone else, and their chances of winning aren't reduced because someone else paid to have their crew done.

You can hire one of the top ten painters in the world if you have enough money. At that point a joe average winning the competition seems kinda unlikely.

The intent is for a well painted crew to receive recognition for being well painted, regardless of who painted it. Its generally an extra bonus of a gaming tournament, not specifically a painting competition.

You are wrong.

[ispep]

You can hire one of the top ten painters in the world if you have enough money. At that point a joe average winning the competition seems kinda unlikely.

And one of those top ten painters in the world could show up with their personal army. Joe average isn't going to win then, either.

[Jonas Albrecht]

And one of those top ten painters in the world could show up with their personal army. Joe average isn't going to win then, either.

He's pitting his skill against others, instead of someone else pitting his (the artist's) skill against others.

In either scenario, only the artist deserves a prize.

[GamerGaeth]

And one of those top ten painters in the world could show up with their personal army. Joe average isn't going to win then, either.

See, that's fine, though. If the painter showed up with the models that he worked on and spent all that time on making sure every last detail was right, that every last highlight was perfect, then he deserves to win the prize.

However, much like Tuesday said, if I spend a ton of my own time painstakingly painting up a crew and then find out that the guy next to me just paid someone to get his minis done and still got into the competition? Well, let me tell you, that is a huge slap in the face.

And before anybody comes back with that argument about how spending money is the same thing as putting effort into painting the mini - that's just wrong. Imagine two people: One has a job that pays well and lives comfortably. The other has a minimum wage job and barely pays the bills with what he gets. Are you telling me that if the first guy buys a painted mini, it's the same as if that second guy put his heart, soul and time into painting the mini himself?

tl;dr: Nobody should ever be able to win a contest that isn't a random lottery just because they had more money than the other guys.

[Buhallin]

Wow.

Some people know me from the Warmachine boards. They know I have something of a rep as being the most anti-paint-obsessive, just-play guy you'll ever meet.

So, that puts me in perspective when I say...

W... T... F?

Seriously? This is either the biggest troll I've seen in years, or the most completely ignorant argument I've EVER seen.

You do not buy your way to a prize. Ever. If you do the work, you deserve it -whether you get paid to do that work on other people's stuff or not.

The people bringing this up have officially zero'ed themselves out on the respect meter. It's just a pathetic argument to make. I have no problem with anyone who would prefer to pay someone to paint their models - but claiming you deserve a prize in a contest for doing so is the worse sort of low-life I can imagine. You can play the semantic game between "best painted" and "best painter" all you want - you know, I know, EVERYONE knows what the prize is for, and it's not for you to claim someone else's work when you enter a contest.

But I don't actually think anyone in this community would sink so low, so I'm going to assume it's a couple of people who had too much too drink on a Saturday night and decided to go trolling. PLEASE tell me this is just someone who had too much to drink on a Saturday night and decided to go trolling...

[Fenrir]

But I don't actually think anyone in this community would sink so low, so I'm going to assume it's a couple of people who had too much too drink on a Saturday night and decided to go trolling. PLEASE tell me this is just someone who had too much to drink on a Saturday night and decided to go trolling...

Why can't I have a prize because I paid someone to troll for me?

[magicpockets]

Wow.

I'm going to assume it's a couple of people who had too much too drink on a Saturday night and decided to go trolling. PLEASE tell me this is just someone who had too much to drink on a Saturday night and decided to go trolling...

Nope, it was something that came up that I thought was worth bouncing off the forum - the simple question of whether the award is for the crew or the painter. And if the painter, can he win if not at the tourney.

The consensus it seems is "no" to both, and whilst I now see the reasoning behind the first, I do disagree with the second - especially if the painter is there in another capacity.

I know a few guys who pay to get their stuff painted and I remember one guy who had an AWESOME crew painted by a studio artist and thinking it was a bit unfair he didn't get recognised for how awesome his crew was.

So personally I take offence at the characterisations you've levelled at me (presumably) when this was started and been replied to (in the main) with the best intentions. Its not something I'll lose sleep over or hold against you, but I don think it was cool.