Avatars - an arcanists viewpoint

[Ebonstar]

I was overall disappointed with the Collette avatar. As was previously mentioned she loses way too much, no more SS generation, no slow to die, no illusionist, not even disappearing act. And the main point is she loses her synergy and connectivity to the rest of the crew.

What it basically means to me is that if I want to run aCollette, I'll only want to include certain elements of the showgirls (Duet and Cassandra only) and work a new angle that can capitalize on card tricks (like Decapitate to take cards away). I just don't think it's worth it.

[Mentat_Canis]

I have to say December was fun to play as I think she is worse then normal Raspy overall just because of how I play raspy. Ramos Looks cool might make me pick him up as he is the only Archanist I don't have. Marcus Looks awesome I just think he will really be hard to get out effectively.

Colette is a bit of a disappointment. I was hoping for more soulstone use. I like that she can manipulate cards I just don't think she does enough. I can see some fun ideas with her but you are so dependent on tomes with bedazzle which is what she is there for. I think not having slow to die is huge because well she will die very quickly because the decoys don't have use soulstone. But they all look like fun to play at some point in time

[Only Perfect]

After a few games with my new aMarcus I have come to the conclusion he is extremely easy to manifest at least for my play style, but I do hate the feeling of wasting the 0 action on the second feral unless I'm alpha-ing on the 2nd turn which usually isn't the case b/c that would take some crazy positioning.

[FearLord]

I get the impression (based on spoilers - haven't got my book yet...) that the popularity of Avatars will be inversely proportional to the popularity of the Master...

The Avatars have probably been balanced better than the first masters were, so their power level will probably be comparable to the better masters. This will make the less powerful masters' avatars seem more powerful by comparison, but the better masters will have a harder choice as to whether to manifest...

[Calmdown]

I get the impression (based on spoilers - haven't got my book yet...) that the popularity of Avatars will be inversely proportional to the popularity of the Master...

The Avatars have probably been balanced better than the first masters were, so their power level will probably be comparable to the better masters. This will make the less powerful masters' avatars seem more powerful by comparison, but the better masters will have a harder choice as to whether to manifest...

This is not the case. Some of the best avatar are on the current better masters, some of the best avatars are on mediocre masters. Some of the worst/middle ground masters also got the worst avatars. There's no correlation.

[Necromorph]

This is not the case. Some of the best avatar are on the current better masters, some of the best avatars are on mediocre masters. Some of the worst/middle ground masters also got the worst avatars. There's no correlation.

Sadly, yeah, this is the case. In some cases, the avatars of great masters aren't that desired (I.e. colette) and some definitely brought the master into line with better crews...like ramos. Some just focused more on doing what they already did, as in the case of hamelin and Pandora.

[Uncle]

Sadly, yeah, this is the case. In some cases, the avatars of great masters aren't that desired (I.e. colette) and some definitely brought the master into line with better crews...like ramos. Some just focused more on doing what they already did, as in the case of hamelin and Pandora.

And some are aMarcus.

Kidding.

Kind of.

[Necromorph]

And some are aMarcus.

Kidding.

Kind of.

Is put him under the"focus on what they already do" category, but...yeah...its still amarcus, haha.

[Q'iq'el]

I must say I like Colette avatar a lot. I think all her card tricks, if used properly, make Doves and ability to use them in place of Soulstones more or less irrelevant.

I have some problem with understanding Bedazzle though. How does one Cheats Fate "randomly"? Does my opponent allow me to blindly choose the Control Card he cheats with? Does he shuffle his Control Hand and choose blindly? Or does he "cheat" by flipping from his deck, rather than spending a Control Card?

Another thing I don't understand is Fast. Do all three girls get it until they are revealed? Does it mean 9 AP (6 general 3 from Fast) which shrinks to 7 if both Decoys are revealed before they activate (as the revealed Decoys do not have Fast)? Or is the 6AP limit total and if I use Fast AP, I get to act with only 2 out of 3 (the third still having (0) actions to take).

Edited September 2, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Drake]

I have some problem with understanding Bedazzle though. How does one Cheats Fate "randomly"? Does my opponent allow me to blindly choose the Control Card he cheats with? Does he shuffle his Control Hand and choose blindly? Or does he "cheat" by flipping from his deck, rather than spending a Control Card?

Another thing I don't understand is Fast. Do all three girls get it until they are revealed? Does it mean 9 AP (6 general 3 from Fast) which shrinks to 7 if both Decoys are revealed before they activate (as the revealed Decoys do not have Fast)? Or is the 6AP limit total and if I use Fast AP, I get to act with only 2 out of 3 (the third still having (0) actions to take).

I agree, its a bit confusing..the Shell Game rule goes some way to explain the mechanics but I feel this needs to be a lot clearer....

[Q'iq'el]

So if I got it right and it's 9AP and the cheating becomes just another random flip, then this is pretty scary combo:

(0)Sublime Performance

(1)Strike [Flourishing Card] -> auto trigger Bait and Switch -> Bedazzle -> trigger Surge.

It will be dependent on the quality of your Control Hand and the amount of Soulstones left, but Bedazzle isn't very hard to cast, casting it through the trigger bypasses the limit of times you can use it... you can easily force entire opponent team into cheating randomly, if it is end game and they don't have too many models left.

The only question is how cheating randomly works? And is it better if they waste their Control Card, but it may still produce something big (assuming they had a good Hand when affected by Bedazzle) or is it better if they have to flip their cheats from the Fate Deck?

It occurs to me, that Colette's avatar works best in turn 5 and later... you can load up her pool with Soulstones before Manifesting and then go all crazy with the new abilities, without having to worry about replenishing the pool. A way to finish up the Slaughter, or deny VP for the Claim Jump.

[Drake]

I must say I like Colette avatar a lot. I think all her card tricks, if used properly, make Doves and ability to use them in place of Soulstones more or less irrelevant.

Q'iq'el, im not convinced on this point....if your opponent wins initiative for the turn, your Coryphee Duet is pretty much a sitting duck if it doesnt have an escort of atleast 1 dove...the opponent will always gun for it first activation as its the biggest threat...and with no Use Soulstones yet for the turn, and no Doves around..aColette's control hand manipulation is worthless at that stage of the turn...

That for me is more likely to lead to a lost game. Dont get me wrong, I dont rely solely on Duet to win a game, but I do rely on killing a few models off and therefore reducing opponents Activations before it dies so that I dont get out activated and outgunned by more SS worth of models in my opponents force...

As I have said before, aColette is worth it once the Duet are dead as you dont lose a huge amount by not having the Doves, and if the Duet is dead, you have less need for the extra SS creation (you do still have Magicians Duel too).

I for one would like to have seen an option to revert your Master from Avatar form back to normal form...

[Q'iq'el]

Q'iq'el, im not convinced on this point....if your opponent wins initiative for the turn, your Coryphee Duet is pretty much a sitting duck if it doesnt have an escort of atleast 1 dove...the opponent will always gun for it first activation as its the biggest threat...and with no Use Soulstones yet for the turn, and no Doves around..aColette's control hand manipulation is worthless at that stage of the turn...

That for me is more likely to lead to a lost game. Dont get me wrong, I dont rely solely on Duet to win a game, but I do rely on killing a few models off and therefore reducing opponents Activations before it dies so that I dont get out activated and outgunned by more SS worth of models in my opponents force...

As I have said before, aColette is worth it once the Duet are dead as you dont lose a huge amount by not having the Doves, and if the Duet is dead, you have less need for the extra SS creation (you do still have Magicians Duel too).

I for one would like to have seen an option to revert your Master from Avatar form back to normal form...

Well, let me answer you in reverse order. There are only 6 turns, generally speaking. Avatar is likely to appear in 4th, maybe 3rd if you push it, but it seems you get the most from all her Avatars' extra APs and spells by denying the opponent a chance to pull his big trick in the last turns, so I'd say waiting till turn 5 and going (automatic) is probably preferential (after all, her main "power up" seems to be the number of APs, so better not to waste it). She can mess up his:

• Fate Deck
  
• Control Hand
  
• ability to Cheat Fate
  
• even Slow him down (though her Wp isn't likely to phase too many opponents).
  

And all that exactly when the opponent tries to pull his weight and needs to use all these aces he saved in his Control Hand.

To do all that, she needs to stack on Soulstones though, so you'll plan will be about striking early, withdrawing to safe location to replenish the Soulstone pool and then manifesting in turn 4 or 5. I don't think there would be much need for her to revert afterwards.

Secondly the Duet and other models - clearly, we'll have to hide them before Manifesting. The crew is fast enough, you can always swap the Duet with Colette or other showgirl last turn, before you Manifest. It is a risk, but with such a mobile crew Soulstones are not the only protection. And you can fight to get that first activation too (chances are your Soulstone pool will be bigger, after all).

Besides the Doves go away when she Manifests, not before that. If you decide to Manifest her late in the turn (after the Duet has completed its activation), you still get to use the Doves that turn (in fact you want to use them up, leaving maybe 1 for the Duet) and then you can apply all the debuffs (discussed below) before the opponent can counter-strike against the duet.

So what can she do, if she goes first? For one if you Bedazzle your opponent's heavy hitter, he may now start to wonder if he really wants to Strike your Duet. He can't cheat after all, so the result is going to be unpredictable.

If you add Card Tricks or even Aetheric Subterfuge to the mix, you now create a situation where he knows he can't rely on cheating and he can't be sure of his luck when it comes to flipping from the deck either (actually with the later spell, he can be pretty sure it will go wrong).

So rather than activating his "big hitter", he needs to go with something else and waste AP on clearing up his Fate Deck... that's great, because you get to apply the other deck-messing spell with your second Colette.

It all pivots around the impact of the "random" Cheating Fate on the game though. Once we're told how it is supposed to be done, we'll know how good these combos really are.

Edited September 2, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Adran]

I am 99.9% certain that you can only cheat fate from your control hand which means a random cheating of fate is a card at random from your control hand. How you randomly choose a card from the hand is your own choice.

[Q'iq'el]

I am 99.9% certain that you can only cheat fate from your control hand which means a random cheating of fate is a card at random from your control hand. How you randomly choose a card from the hand is your own choice.

Please tell what you base your certainty on? Was there an official ruling during Gencon or anything?

Would help with the games while we wait for the official answer, because the wording is very ambiguous to say the least.

Besides I'd rather have the designers establish very precisely defined procedure for "random" fate-cheating, to avoid all the needless arguments about how to do it best.

[Q'iq'el]

Ok, you were right Adran. We have the official ruling: http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showpost.php?p=301581&postcount=13

A bit worse for the defense, but much more annoying for the opponent I'd say.

Now need to ask about fast.

[Adran]

Wellwe've got a ruling, which justifies my certainty. The phrase Cheat fate is very specific in the game as playing a card from your hand. So doing so randomly was (to me at least) very obviously playing a card from my hand at random.

[Drake]

Well, clarifying FAST would be useful, as that will make a very noticeable difference to how the Avatar and decoys work...

As for timing, I play in the Tournament scene, and games tend to finish around turns 4 or 5, so cant rely on turns 5 and 6 to bring her out and win the game. Granted, this is only one variety of gaming, and in local gaming scene, time isnt so much an issue.

Also, in my experience, the games are normally won or lost in turns 3 and 4, with any turns after that more a formality anyway....so i'd be looking for a late turn 2/early to mid turn 3 Manifestation....

I do agree with your analysis Q'iq'el, and have to say you have done a very good job of deciphering what she is about.... I am still concerned though that once she manifests your are relying almost entirely on her to win you the game, as your other key players will be mostly out of harms reach to keep them safe as you wont have your Illusionist abilities to keep control of the game and where you fight...

aColette for me is just not the tough nut to crack that she was or needs to be to face down an enemy crew...especially if your crew looses initiative.....just think how frustrating it will be to play against Neverborn with their Dollelganger giving you negative initiative flips, or even worse, eZoraida too!!..... my aColette is likely to never see the light of day in that match up, not unless I am already comfortably winning in which case I dont need to to Manifest anyway!...

[Q'iq'el]

The way I think she is going to end up working, is to secure your own VP with the original Colette, and then Manifest to mess up with the opponent's plans. In other words, she may not be that pivotal model helping you win, but rather a clean-it-up afterthought.

The original Colette is faster (in terms of teleporting around to do the job), more flexible and less limited by the resources. I think it doesn't make sense to manifest to cap own objectives.

The fluff seems to suggest the Avatar helps with Slaughter. Seeing how that has been considered her weak spot, I suppose the avatar is meant to turn on the heat and help the crew actually kill stuff. IMHO whenever you need to kill something the opponent is protecting well (for his VP, probably), the manifestation will be desirable.

In competitive games, where point difference matters as well, an option to get kill at the end of the game can be pretty big.

Edited September 2, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[LoboStele]

The fluff seems to suggest the Avatar helps with Slaughter. Seeing how that has been considered her weak spot' date=' I suppose the avatar is meant to turn on the heat and help the crew actually kill stuff. IMHO whenever you need to kill something the opponent is protecting well (for his VP, probably), the [b']manifestation will be desirable.

Bingo. This is kind of how I see it as well. It's actually a good thing that aColette has the restriction regarding her spells, because being able to cast Magician's Duel more than 3 times in a turn would be insane. Even so, having one aColette smack an opponent model with Flourished Hand and then Bedazzle will still seriously wreck most chance of being able to defend against the Magician's Duel strikes.

As for Fast, I'm not exactly sure where you guys are having trouble. The 'decoys' only get Fast until they are revealed. So, for instance, at the beginning of the turn, if you win init, and want to activate the aColettes first, then each of them would have 3 General AP. However, you are also restricted to using 6 General AP at most among them. So, realistically speaking, at most, 2 of them can actually use their Fast action. I think, typically, most times it will play out as one aColette will do a (0) for Sublime Performance, then a (1) for Flourished Card and try to get off the Bedazzle stuff, and then possibly Pass it's other AP. Then, another aColette will move in for the Magician's Duel strikes using up to 3 AP total. That leaves either 1 or 2 general AP for the last one, depending on how many AP the first one used.

If I'm reading it correctly, if one of the Decoy's has already been revealed earlier in the turn, then you would have two aColette's to activate together, and then they would each be able to benefit from Fast, because that would still amount to 6AP total. At that point, the Decoy would get a standard 2 AP activation, and not count as part of the Shell Game stuff. So, there's some slight advantage to having one of the Decoy's revealed. Especially since then you could use Mirror Trick as well to get close to an opponent.

[Q'iq'el]

Fast has been cleared up in the Rules discussion thread.

I'm pretty sure though, that I'll want to use all 3 AP with the Colette that activated Sublime Performance. Simply because this (0) action becomes unusable for the other two and I'd like to Bedazzle more than one model for that.

It also makes sense for that Colette to go second or even third, depending on situation. There's a reason why triggered Bedazzle can be cast regardless of Shell Game restrictions.

[Drake]

hmm, some food for thought here...will have to work out how she can benefit me in different strategies and against different Masters...still not totally convinced she is worth the loss of the crew utility, but she could provide some aggressive options that may in some cases be worth the loss of crew buffs....

[LoboStele]

hmm, some food for thought here...will have to work out how she can benefit me in different strategies and against different Masters...still not totally convinced she is worth the loss of the crew utility, but she could provide some aggressive options that may in some cases be worth the loss of crew buffs....

Yep. She's one of the Avatars that really doesn't change the power level of the crew at all, it just gives you some different options. I think at the 40SS level, where the Master of Malifaux event was played at GenCon, it really becomes nice for her, because you can build a pretty standard 35 SS Colette Crew, and then simply toss in the Avatar. You almost don't even have to think about it, and you don't have to try TOO hard to Manifest if you decide you don't need it. If you do Manifest Automatically near the end of the game, it will probably work out OK by then anyways.

[Odin1981]

The only useful thing I see her bringing is maybe just how shell game is worded. From what it says in the book atleast what I gathered from reading is every activation step you will get to select which model is which. So you can do some movement shenanagins with her every turn without having to move.

Granted I wholeheartedley admit that I'm not positive on this and would probably need a clarification from a rules marshal. However the disadvantage she brings in my eyes is that there is almost no way you would be able to produce enough ss for how many you would be using a turn lacking soulstone manipulation.