Odin1981 Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 (edited) Ok this is my first post on this thread. I am going to talk specifically about book 1 masters in this post. And how you can combat them. I am also going to speak in generally non master specific strats as a whole (read general tips) on how to combat each master (I firmly believe that in no way shape or form anyone should ever tell anyone else how to play via what to take). Basically because everyone I feel has a RIGHT to take whatever they feel they like most about any specific master/crew led by their opponent. Now I also may provide a example or two about what I FEEL for my specific playstyle might be best in a given situation but in no way shape or form do I express you need specific models for the job. I will mention book 2 masters/henchmen in a later post (theirs) at a later date and time but I have not played currentley against "competant" players playing their book 2 options so by no means am I saying I'm an expert in those matters. I will say from oberving what I appear to think they are "good" at I will offer some brief tips against them but untill I have concrete exp against said master and henchmen or am given some pm's from u the communtiy that have better exp against them I will keep my "tips" to a minimum. Edited October 17, 2011 by Odin1981 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odin1981 Posted August 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 (edited) 1. Crew Breakdown. Pandora: Ok first and most importantly I want to say it would behoove (I would like to add at the time of these post I am under the consumption of "numerous" alcholic bevarages so if your a spelling nazi screw off this is the easiest scenario for me to explain this without getting terribley bored while posting so screw my epic fail at any spelling accuracy)you to check various battle reports of master X versus pandora on the battle report headline. The single most important thing when you see her capabilities that you (the opponent of this 2 dollar trick) that you have to understand is: Pandora the cheap hussy is a " FORCE MULTIPLIER". (Sidenote I am a medically retarded marine so I do assume you are at least (oh screw me up the Mississippi River) at a basic level have a "decent level of tactical acumen". In regards to a level of understanding of basic tactics) if your not (imho I buzzedley "lol not a true spelling word" I digress) goggle search fu tactics/strategy/plan. Most effective dora crews will undoubtedley have a "WP centric" crew. I would like to further add I am specifically not talking about a new player fielding this master I am specifically talking about a type of player that frequents tournaments and "plans" to do well. The main problem with said player is that outside of kirai, or leve, and zoraida "dora" (for specific sake to not have to spell her MF'ing name from this point on) she can have a wide variety in options (crew to take). So you the illustrious Guild Hombre (You obviously) can never be sure that you know what she (the trick) will take. That being said I am not going to talk about specific crews to take in regards to her matchup (duh she is versatile unless you play a specific human that likes to take a "certain" list all the time). She can take a # of crews that will fit her playstyle well. Now I am going to assume if you actually care to research her (the trick) you will probably have read one or numerious tactica's of her (on this site or numerious other website's that actual give you a basic "how too's" of how she operates) of the stupid trick. To have a simple modicrum of all her or her typical minions "modus operandi". A "force multiplier" is in essence (damn you all if you are too lazy to research what the F--k this means) is in laymens terms one who multiplies an existing situation. So in dummy terms this means you take a existing minions abilties and by some (expose fears and box opens dimwit) ability "multiply said effect". Unless you actually take a crapton of models that have a strong melee weapon damage range you aren't gonna effect your crew negatively (self loathing target duh). I would also assume that you typically (one or maybe two models exception being would not have a "strong melee weapon". Also you would probably have a general base line wp stat (of all your models) have around a base stat of 6 (equal to her casting). What this does (assuming dora player doesn't draw a "god hand" (all 10's or better minus maybe one moderate card) is make said fluzzy need to spend ss to increase her total to a undefendable assume above 13 whatever your base wp stat is range. Also I will spend time below spending on how you can be "proactive" (ie the opposite of reactive) to attack said players hand. Now I digress back to the battle report advice. You will see a "common trend" on just about every loss to said master. Well see on turn 1-2 I respected her ability far too much so I spent damn near 80% of my models activations trying to target her. The problem with this train of thought in my humble opinion is she (I truly hate to draw a comparison because she is much different than these 2 mentioned masters) she is similar to lilith and dita in that she wants you the opposing player to spend way too much emphasis on her. If you disagree and you (the guild player) own dita. Think about how many games you play with her and how "mysteriously" how 1/2 or possibly more models the opposing crew makes some pathetic attempt to kill her. Granted I give you she doesn't have def 8 but she does have that wp/wp duel to see if your action succedes. The dora player is banking on you to take way too many models attempting to kill her "waste ap". While her crew moves to contact (god I hate how much I am assuming you understand the (6-5) book to understand certain "terms" and engage you on her (yours) terms. The key imho is to say screw her rng proc, (random number genrator) ie flipping the crow to trigger her fall back trigger, and about face your assesment on target priority and go aggresivley after her minions ie the "force that she multiplies". If you make it a point to go after her d-bags that don't have a ss usage to make u miss and give her a (free 4" push) you can actually force her to expend rescouces on keeping her minions alive (- damage flips) and she the trick will be adversley affected in accumulating her "god hand" ie the high# crows that ensure you have 2-3 models falling back. Now I will admit I lack patience currently to finish the matchup anaylsis tonight. And don't want to spend way too much time but I concur that tommorow when I wake up and get "clear" ie rehydrate I will finish this posting with dora specifically and the rest of the book one masters that people for some reason have a problem facing. Edited August 29, 2011 by Odin1981 cutting back on "s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odin1981 Posted August 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 (edited) After waking up and rereading what I wrote I did not realise (inebriated I didn't realize how much I violated the " key so I will apologise for that). Dora continued: If you understand how she multiplies a wp heavy crew for effect and go after her minions you will look at her and see that she normally by herself doesn't put out a whole lot of damage (generally 3-4 wds a activation). A common tactic many (not all) dora players have is using sorrows (via emotional distress) to help speed up this process, however they are stupid easy to kill yes they are def 5 but all but your basic 4 point minions exceed that total with here preferred combat stat (be it ranged/melee). If you are like me and don't care if something fails a morale duel the govenor's proxy is a great model to use (yeah its risky but me personally I don't care if I win/lose quickly easier to have more time to start up another game if it's not a tournament setting). Anything of yours that is stubborn will be when defending in a wp duel will have a zoraida level of wp stat (ie 10). This basically forces the pandora player to have to spend a bunch of her ss on offense just to get a spell threw. Granted the model is not out yet but for those of you like me who own book 3 there is a new model that potentially might be better than the proxy (Johnny Cash) because he can give the same effect (albet at 4x the cost of a proxy totem) 6 string thing, and a spell that has a aura like the above mentioned ability that is a 8" aura tread the line I believe it is called (6 string is a 5" aura) that basically sends a middle finger up to any incite/pacify effects. Also by not initially going after her you deny her a hell of a lot of free movement (winning wp 4" pushes granted I am digressing here but the one thing that drives me up a wall specifically that she can do is the stupid oversight imho of actual wording allowing her to cast dementia on herself could easily be corrected by simply just changing current wording with "target enemy model"). She is normally a fairly slow model with a wk of 3 and if she where to have to waste 1-2 ap walking to get in range of a model to cast on it that will generally make it alot easier for you to avoid alot of her wp duels. Target priority for models she can take(no way definative of absolute # in regards to priority but models you should "pay special attention" too: 1.Doppleganger : she (dora) is one of the few models that really wants/needs to win initiative if the borne player takes her this is a model you will want to kill early to deny her of a high ability of going first. 2. insidious madness: the 4" aura/pulse of wp duels at a - nuff said. 3. sorrows(if taken): a force multiplier of force multipliers. 4. stitched together: the borne option of a criminally undercosted 5 point model (hey we are guild we have our austringers so we can't complain too much ideally it would be best to have a immune to influence model to burst them down so they can't do much to said model but I digress). 5. "Filth Combo" ie nekima/lilitu: if you followed nix's master's of malifaux battle report thread you can see what they do in two actual games he reported using them. There our other threads in this guild section that talk about how we guild could counter it I'd suggest you go there to get up to date on that. This pretty much to this point wraps up my write up of dora however if in conversations below people bring up good points to be added pm me and I will include more (this whole post is going to be more of a guild head's up living document thingie so I do expect to have to update this). Edited August 23, 2011 by Odin1981 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odin1981 Posted August 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 (edited) Lilith overview: Ok with pandora out of the way we now move to the master of malifaux. Granted we are guild and do not have a whole slew of 2" melee range models but it is worth noting that black blood (the nephilim trait) works when said model hits one of the above and damages said model with a melee strike within 1" you take 1 damage in return for whacking said mole. Granted outside of maybe 5 models in our faction (discounting our cheap sacrificials) we really do not want to be in combat with said nephilim. Lilith herself is the "twin" model of dita due to her defense of 8. Now I am going to assume you the guild player are aware of how good a stat trait of defense of 8 is and am really not going to get into much of it. But the common mistake I see when I play perdita is a lot of people try to burst her down from the onset of an engagement. Lilith also is hoping that you do this as well. Now outside of her being the only target presented to you this is in my humble opinion a wrong move. Imagine for instance that turn 1 is mainly about positioning models to "get stuff done" (ie to do strats/schemes set up to pounce on target priority kills) and saving most cards in your hand of a 9 or higher. Often when turn two begins unless the shuffle gods of rng proc hate you and laugh at the tears you cry of a schitey hand. You are more than likely going to have 2-3 cards of a 11 or better nature and 1-2 cards that are 8+ before the pivotal "stuff is gonna go down turn" ie turn two. Know with a hand of this type (assuming average card drawing) say you or lilith where to activate first fast ap def stance and then move 8" towards everything your opponent brings. You are now faced with a def 8++ model for flips and a ss user (random # of ss figure somewhere between 4-8). Do you really want to try plinging away on said model while their entire crew moves to a further advantaged position to kill/claim vp stuff while you waste the turn trying to plink away said model? Also Lilith has two 12 " abilities transposition and illusionary forest. Transposition I have in my exp found is the most likely offensive ability for her to use a ss on switching a powder puff defense minion with a good melee beatstick ironically normaly surrounded by a good # of models in their crew. Illusionary forest is normally used to block a fire lane of a non hunter, non austringer variety. Their are certain lists that can be common place for a lilith player to take (the "grow" ones). If you think they are using said list it would be in your benefit to if you can position willing go after two models first. Terror tots and the bbs (black blood shaman). Know if they are hidden and far enough away that you can't go after them without trotting threw the "pain train" ie young, mature and lilith you will want to start killing young and mature on your way to them to take away that ability. Or hopefully said model and the children will be far enough out of position to not really matter in said encounter you are playing. One other point worth mentioning is that young and mature nephilim have an ability that with enough terrain on the board give a preferbial middle finger to the ranged component of guild. This ability is called (2) Diving Attack. It is basically a "charge that doesn't need los" to said target. Assuming your playing a opponent of at least decent level of skill. This takes away the "initiative" component that guild normally have (barring dreamer, colette, colludi, and kirai) of the opponent needing to wade in threw a multitude of bullets to get at your powder puff melee models. If you can depending on terrain placement on said board you are on. It would be in your best intrest to go to a open area of said board and set up your forces (to decrease the "surpise" element of said ability). One bit of advise I would give on you the guild player on "list organization" (what you take) is try to have a 50/50 split of melee to ranged models in your list. And on deployment make sure you support your primarily ranged elements with a fairly competent melee model to "guard" said ranged option. On to lilith herself in taking her down. Unfortunatley for us we have a profound lack of wp damage based models and ca attacking stat abilities. These in my humble opinion our the best options for attacking lilith as her "weak stats" are a casting of 5 and a willpower of 6. However if by chance you took a lawyer it is possible you could make her run away like a little girl (by having nino, austringers, executioner, or a ss master blasting away at her to first draw out her ss's) then throwing a cheated 13 on the morale duel cast and watching her fail and run away. Also stalkers are not bad to suicide in against her watch them go splat when they meet greatsword and damage aura 2 her un their untimely demise. Know I will say this Lilith is normally best left touched rarely untill her minions are taken care of (same strat most people use against perdita). Due to how many ap it can take to bring her down. So unless she is the only target presented to you at the onset of the game (turn 2 and 3) I would normally caution you on going after her directly. Edited August 29, 2011 by Odin1981 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odin1981 Posted August 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 " Do I really have to further describe?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpaceViking Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 I hope your quote key is OK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soundwave Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 would like to add at the time of these post I am under the consumption of "numerous" alcholic bevarages so if your a spelling nazi screw off...it's you're.:hidingpuppet Also, it gets very tiresome to "have" "everything" in "quotation", so I couldn't really appreciate the content. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadArcanist Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 How can the guild Confront the Neverborn? Play the Ortegas. They are the counter crew to the Neverborn. Just like Sonnia is for the Arcanist and Lady J is the counter for the Ressers Edit: I don't mean to sound rude. I really don't. I apologize if this comes off that way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 Different Guild masters and minions are better against different Rezzer masters and minions - and so all of the above only applies when you know your opponent's master in advance, right? Which under full game rules, you don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odin1981 Posted August 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 How can the guild Confront the Neverborn? Play the Ortegas. They are the counter crew to the Neverborn. Just like Sonnia is for the Arcanist and Lady J is the counter for the Ressers Edit: I don't mean to sound rude. I really don't. I apologize if this comes off that way Considering that the supposed anti neverborne crew of our faction potentially has 3 piss poor matchups against said faction (dreamer, lilith, and a zoraidi led puppet gang). Assuming that we are talking about players of roughly equal skill (also not begginers) it would be to our benefit if for no other reason than to hear people stop moaning and complaining like little school children against neverborne. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odin1981 Posted August 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 Updated and edited a bit lilith to come next. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOneWhoFell Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 The most important things to remember when playing Guild against Neverborn are: -WILLPOWER: Higher Willpower is best. The Ortega's is pretty high, but there are other models who are useful in Wp duels. -DEFENSE: High defense is also important. The Neverborn inflict a TON of damage. -RANGE: Shooting the squishy NB is more effective than getting into melee with them right away. -BUFFING: If you can make more of your models see through spells and abilities used by the NB, you'll be more likely to survive. -AREA EFFECTS: Lots of NB models are difficult to target for different reasons. Papa Loco and other models that have Area Effects are useful against all the NB (especially the ones that like to group up (Alps) or the ones that can be targeted (Dreamer)). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nilus Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 Okay so I am going to take this back a step and talk less about specific neverborn tactics and instead talk about just plain good Guild Competitive list tactics. First things first. See that cool theme list. Throw it out. Theme is great and I love a list that follows a theme but all Witch Hunters or All Death Marschals just lends itself to being to specific. Second, look for syngergy. Which means throw a bit of that theme back in. Death Marschals have a spell that enhance all DMs CB in melee. This includes LJ and the Judge. Ortegas are also an obvious synergy as well. In the standard game you will know your opponents faction. Don't let that blind you. Lady Justice is great against Res, but you know Hoffman does a good job as well(Lots of immunity to Terrifying and no corpse counters). Perdita is the queen of Neverborn killer lists but take a look at Lady Justice. Perdita might be able to hit Pandora without a problem, but Lady Justice can make a line of Death Marshals do the same thing. Okay enough generic advice. Now its time for my number one Guild Tactic. Kill Teams. When building a list try to fit each model into a group of 1 to 3(maybe 4 or 5 for cheap models) teams. Ortega players have a habit of keeping all of them in a 6" chain so they can chain companion. Its often better to pair them up and move them in teams of two. Alpha Strike companion has it place but its very rarely useful early game so its best to start them far apart and move them together to a central goal. Kill teams also mean you spread your models out enough that a Neverborn quick strike only can take out a couple models but you can still retaliate back with what they don't kill. I will post mode ideas once I think about it more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odin1981 Posted August 29, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 29, 2011 Lilith posted. Zoraida incoming (sorry for the delay real life kicks spending time posting strats on a forum). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolomyte Posted August 29, 2011 Report Share Posted August 29, 2011 (edited) Depending on the strategy, at 35ss (our tournament standard), I would take one of two lists as a guild player facing neverborn. (all shared) Slaughter, Claim Jump, Contain Power, Distract, Reconnoiter, Supply Wagon, Escape and Survive. I would take Lady Justice Scales of Justice 2ss Lucius 10ss 2x Guild Austringers 10ss Guardian 7ss Drill Sergeant 3ss 7ss cache or Desperate merc 2ss 8ss cache For (all shared) A line in the sand, Destroy the evidence, Deliver a message, Plant evidence, Treasure hunt, turf war. I would take Perdita Enslaved Nephelim 2ss Abuela 7ss Nino 7ss Papa Loco 6ss Santiago 7ss Latigo Pistolero 3ss and a 5 SS cache, or an 8 SS cache. depending. Edited August 29, 2011 by Dolomyte Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nilus Posted August 29, 2011 Report Share Posted August 29, 2011 Dolomite. Clear to elaborate on why those lists. Wondering about some choices, especially the Scales of Justice or Papa Loco. I never take Papa Loco vs Neverborn, just asking for a Zoriada Obey bomb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonas Albrecht Posted August 29, 2011 Report Share Posted August 29, 2011 (edited) Kill Teams. When building a list try to fit each model into a group of 1 to 3(maybe 4 or 5 for cheap models) teams. Ortega players have a habit of keeping all of them in a 6" chain so they can chain companion. Its often better to pair them up and move them in teams of two. Alpha Strike companion has it place but its very rarely useful early game so its best to start them far apart and move them together to a central goal. My standard grouping is Nino/Francisco, Santiago/Aubela/Shotgun Wedding Model. Perdita is too fast for a buddy. Edited August 29, 2011 by Jonas Albrecht Pulled a Lady Justice, got Francisco and Santiago mixed up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolomyte Posted August 29, 2011 Report Share Posted August 29, 2011 (edited) Dolomite. Clear to elaborate on why those lists. Wondering about some choices, especially the Scales of Justice or Papa Loco. I never take Papa Loco vs Neverborn, just asking for a Zoriada Obey bomb. Valid questions. Going to answer them out of order. In my local playing area Big Z is the least played of the neverborn masters, I have a feeling that may change with Avatar form being released (and what I would argue is one of the best sculpts). Currently, I am much more likely to see Lilith, Pandora, or the Dreamer. So I build these lists on the assumption they will be good for 3/4ths (4/5ths) of the master pool, and I'll just need to improvise in game if I see Zoraida. The other thing, is if I see zoraida I will activate up the family and papa bomb on my first activation. It might not be the most effective bombing, but It should be enough to get him far enough away from my models or dead that I dont need to worry about him. The rest of the family should be a fairly straight forward perdita list. the family is usually a pretty good matchup against most neverborn with their universally high wps (as the defender) and perdita's ability to shoot pandora in the face. To discuss the first list, I like the scales of justice because I dont need to worry about failing a willpower duel, of which I would face many, and dying. The +2 is not worth the risk IMO. Also, the scales has some great abilities, balance as a 0 can be incredibly useful, and tip the scales on an austringer can make their CB 9 18 inch attack even more ridiculous. Typically I will set Lucius, the austringers, and the scales together (the scales casting blind justice). Lady J is much more survivable with the guardian, so I will advance her, it, and the desperate merc behind cover, or leave them to counterattack people moving up on the austringers, based on how the game is playing out. The desperate merc is there because there is simply no better 2 points to spend for the guild (or anyone, they are a really nice 2 point model). Actually im an asshole, I would take lucius's totem over the desperate merc, thought I was missing something. he would stay with the austringers as well, edited above. Edited August 29, 2011 by Dolomyte Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cerealkiller195 Posted August 29, 2011 Report Share Posted August 29, 2011 why does everyone think WP failure = death. It's only if you have fail a MORALE duel while in line of site of the proxy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolomyte Posted August 29, 2011 Report Share Posted August 29, 2011 (edited) why does everyone think WP failure = death. It's only if you have fail a MORALE duel while in line of site of the proxy still going to face pandora / the faction most likely to cause you to fail a morale duel. not worth it. Edited August 29, 2011 by Dolomyte Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robk Posted August 30, 2011 Report Share Posted August 30, 2011 Not sure why there is no talk of hoffman as an anti-neverborn master. (Assuming you have a few guild masters). If they chose Zoraida, you build your crew with all constructs and she can't obey any of them (Except Hoffman before he activates ... Good luck) If they chose Pandora you can chose a mix of long range and close range folks. (Never played against her so don't know) If they chose Dreamer - You can take a whole bunch of watchers and a couple of beat sticks and have a decent chance of completing your schemes. If they chose Lilith your in a bit of a pickle unless his nelphilim are bunched up and your last 2 activations is peacekeeper/warden to move up 15" carrying hoffman and then you do 3 blasts to kill them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odin1981 Posted August 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2011 In my first post I mentioned about how I am not gonna tell people what to take for 2 reasons. 1. I don't want this post to deevolve into mindless bashing of anyones personal opinion of what they like and what they feel inclined to take. 2. What you take and how you use it is very subjective. Some people understand certain models alot more than others (a personal example for me would be I own lady j I have played her 6 games and I have yet to win a game with her as such I don't rate her very highly however my perception could be concluded from not having enough experiance to use her properlyt ie effectively). Also what works for one person might be a epic fail for another. Also some people that don't have versatile selections of guild might also not have the money to go purchase them. I don't discount what you are saying about hoffman. He could be a great neverborne counter model. He for me is currently the only guild master I don't own. I personally feel he is probably the best master to use against dreamer. Strictly just judging him/his crews abilities and strengths and how they can counteract a typical dreamer crews models/abilities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G&TBoy Posted September 4, 2011 Report Share Posted September 4, 2011 The best bet to beating a Neverborn crew is target there one weak point...the person playing them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted September 4, 2011 Report Share Posted September 4, 2011 I find that eating Pizza with Raw Garlic on it before the game helps in this respect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G&TBoy Posted September 4, 2011 Report Share Posted September 4, 2011 Now that's a proper tactic.....Picking and flicking can work as well (especially if the pickings arnt from your nose).....:puke: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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