Neverborn Rules Discussion

[Wulfen]

The forum results in horrible arguments when people try to push their view of the balance through. It's not the first time and it's not something new. It's also hardly a Malifaux specific. It is considerably more tolerant to well documented and well argued posts, which we unfortunately haven't seen too many.

On the other hand if you come asking for advice how to deal with something, more often than not you'll get some helpful advice or at least a constructive brainstorm... granted, you need to filter out the inevitable "it cannot be beaten, man" posts.

At the very least that's my experience. Whether it was painting or crew building advice, I've got ample of help here.

This is simply not the case. It doesn't matter if the argument is well-reasoned or documented, people rush to the defense of their faction in a blinding flash, and usually in a much more passionate fashion. Facts have been ignored all over this thread, as an example, to those in defense of their precious Neverborn. I cannot believe that a counter-argument was presented as, "Well, be glad you got something."

I've resorted to much the same, unfortunately. After presenting arguments, facts, and reasoned opinions, sometimes people have just had enough and get exasperated with this place.

[Wulfen]

And why's that?

For much the same reason as Calmdown stated.

[Dolomyte]

To try to save this thread, I would like to not discuss book 3 models

There are a few reasons for this.

1. Effigies were obviously given to all the factions solely so they could beef up collidi's crew selection options without giving neverborn 10 models to everyone elses 6.

2. They did the same thing with $$$$$$$$ for kaeris, She can take some cross faction burning token stuff too, if I remember the minion breakdowns I read.

3. They do it with beasts for marcus all the time.

they did not want to bring a whole ton of new models to the scene, but they did not want to gimp the neverborn by making all of their options, or most of their book 3 options, dolls. I understand and accept that. I need to see the rules for myself, and I think we honestly need to get some games in before we can judge ANYTHING from book 3. Avatars, whatever. Even if on paper it looks broken as $$$$$$$$, people on the forum will never agree (ala lelitu and nekima from a year ago) until it has been around a year.

[emissary]

This is simply not the case. It doesn't matter if the argument is well-reasoned or documented, people rush to the defense of their faction in a blinding flash, and usually in a much more passionate fashion. Facts have been ignored all over this thread, as an example, to those in defense of their precious Neverborn. I cannot believe that a counter-argument was presented as, "Well, be glad you got something."

I've resorted to much the same, unfortunately. After presenting arguments, facts, and reasoned opinions, sometimes people have just had enough and get exasperated with this place.

The same can be said to people rushing to attack whatever they don't like, ignoring evidence there as well. People argue as though their "facts" are absolute and are usually talking about things in a vacuum. All you have to do is look at Calmdown's threads about why the book 3 rezzer minions suck or why the dead rider sucks and you can see it. The easiest way to make something look like an important fact is to take a small truth, add a ton of conjecture/opinion and present it as some all important fact.

I agree 100% that the problem with these types of forums is that people try to push their opinions on people. They've convinced themselves that it's some irrefutable fact, go about proclaiming how they're the only ones that see the truth and get exaspirated when others don't see the "light" they're trying to show to the masses. The way these things can blow up into a mass of chicken littles is hilarious.

You have an opinion, they have an opinion Most "facts" are framed by point of view. Deal with the "fact" that everyone won't agree, they probably have a good reason not to and that you don't have to convert everyone to your opinion.

[nix]

And this is before we even get to the fact that Neverborn got more top-tier avatars and minions than everybody else. Heh. Go Wyrd.

Ok, so I have only gotten to this post, so if this has already been addressed then I apologize for beating a dead horse.

But seriously? You feel the NB avatars are Top-Tier compared to other factions?

I am genuinely interested in your logic here. I love the Avatars but would only pick one of the NB ones as tournament worthy. aZoraida is pretty good and has a place as a tournament model. The others? I would argue they are either fun or highly situational at best.

Can you help me see how you perceive them as Top-Tier, and then further expand on how they are "More Top Tier" than other factions.

I would ask the same about the minions as well actually.

[Dolomyte]

To further this thread back on track and off of book 3, which is irrelevent to the current discussion, at least until it effects a major tournament or two, I created a poll, please vote.

Are neverborn broken

are neverborn slightly better (with a few broken interactions)

are neverborn slightly better (working as they should be)

are neverborn equal

are neverborn less.

Please vote.

[Zephir]

I have to agree with Nix I feel like NB actually got the weakest models in Book 3. I may be biased for my own stuff, but I think Ressers really got the best stuff in Twisting Fates.

All our Avatars are at least decent. Rafkin, Crooligans, and Jakunna are outright nasty minions. And even the stuff thats a touch weaker in my opinion, Carrion Effigy, Doxie, and Drowned are all pretty damn good.

Time will tell which faction really won out book 3 (In the way most people think NB won out in book 2). But I would bet the farm that its not gonna be Neverborn this time.

[Wulfen]

Ok, so I have only gotten to this post, so if this has already been addressed then I apologize for beating a dead horse.

But seriously? You feel the NB avatars are Top-Tier compared to other factions?

I am genuinely interested in your logic here. I love the Avatars but would only pick one of the NB ones as tournament worthy. aZoraida is pretty good and has a place as a tournament model. The others? I would argue they are either fun or highly situational at best.

Can you help me see how you perceive them as Top-Tier, and then further expand on how they are "More Top Tier" than other factions.

I would ask the same about the minions as well actually.

I'm not sure I disagree with this, although I've really not had the chance to fully digest all of them. But honestly, in my admittedly brief overview, how many of these avatars, across the board, would we consider tournament worthy? I'm not sure very many would pass that test. They look fun, and change the playstyle of many masters, but that in itself doesn't make them worthy.

[Uncle]

I'm not sure I disagree with this, although I've really not had the chance to fully digest all of them. But honestly, in my admittedly brief overview, how many of these avatars, across the board, would we consider tournament worthy? I'm not sure very many would pass that test. They look fun, and change the playstyle of many masters, but that in itself doesn't make them worthy.

Going off on a tangent, and after having looked at them all several times...

Guild: Hoffman (although I do not believe it makes Hoffman competitive). I think Perdita's triggers are a little off, and she doesn't really need to manifest, and Sonnia just doesn't seem to be all that useful. Casting Master, really? Justice doesn't work.

Ressers: Seamus is by far the best. Nicodem would be completely busted if I ever expected a game to go for the full length. McMorning's avatar isn't enough to push McMourning up to great status, and Kira's avatar isn't worth 2 stones.

Arcanists: Ramos' is great. Colette's is wonky, but will see use, maybe, Rasputina's is less useful, and Marcus is still Marcus.

I agree on Neverborn. Zoraida's avatar is likely to see play, the rest not so much.

Minions: Hamelin and Vickies' avatars are great, the rest either aren't as good or don't make Gremlins competitive.

Basically, out of 20 Avatars, I would expect to see, perhaps, 7 being used competitively. I don't think Neverborn got it bad, I just don't think they made out like bandits as far as Avatars go.

Of course, then they get Effigies...

[Ratty]

The thing to note is that the Effigies are designed to have synergies with their factions. I think if Neverborn take them they won't get quite as much out of them than their parent faction.

And on the whole subject of which faction gets the most new models out of the new book here is how it actually breaks down.

Guild 10 minions.

Ressurectionists 10 minions.

Arcanists 13 minions.

Neverborn 14 minions.

Outcast 16 minions.

There really is not much between them... Outcasts have more models available than Neverborn and Arcanists are only 1 behind.

[Calmdown]

Guild 10 minions.

Ressurectionists 10 minions.

Arcanists 13 minions.

Neverborn 14 minions.

Outcast 16 minions.

Your breakdown is off though. The difference between 10 and 14 is significant, not to mention that those extra Arcanist minions can only be used by ONE Arcanist master, wheres the extra 4 Neverborn minions can be used by any Neverborn master. Outcasts getting more is a bit less of an issue since Outcasts in model terms are really split into two factions (Gremlin/NonGremlin) and in any case, many of their models can be hired by other factions.

So really, there's quite a significant difference in the number of models made available to each faction in TF.

[Ratty]

Your breakdown is off though. The difference between 10 and 14 is significant, not to mention that those extra Arcanist minions can only be used by ONE Arcanist master, wheres the extra 4 Neverborn minions can be used by any Neverborn master. Outcasts getting more is a bit less of an issue since Outcasts in model terms are really split into two factions (Gremlin/NonGremlin) and in any case, many of their models can be hired by other factions.

So really, there's quite a significant difference in the number of models made available to each faction in TF.

quality of minions and how they synergies with Masters, 1 model that has good synergy with a Master is far better than 3 models that have weak synergy with all Masters. If you look at the Neverborn models I think you will agree that Iggy synergises better with Kaeris who will take him often far better than Neverborn that just might consider him. The Silurid are going to be used far more often by Marcus than Zoraida. Neverborn gain some Effigies which will work well with Collodi or Zoraida. Guild gain Fire Gamin, which are damn good to go with Avatar Sonnia. Rezers lack a bit in overall number of models, but I do think overall get a far more solid set of minions than some other factions. Leviticus gets a Rider from out of faction, that has far more synergy with him than the Silurid and Iggy have with the Neverborn, and a Watcher that can tie down the enemy so you can nuke them.

[Wulfen]

Unless you're wanting to run Molly. Curious why they really seem to be neglecting her.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Maybe because she can hire belles as well as Horrors...? I don't know, I realize I'm not the greatest at actually discovering synergies, but I'm not seeing much synergy between the Horrors and Belles currently released and Molly. Not anywhere near the ridiculousness of Collodi, although to be fair not many henchman have a ton of synergy anyway with their appointed Special Forces. Kaeris might come close though. As to why she doesn't seem to get any love, given Wyrd's release schedule it was bound to happen that one of the Henchman would fall along the roadside in the quest to flesh-out their forces. Molly just had the bad luck to be sitting on the sidewall of the truckbed when they hit a pothole. I doubt very highly that is has been intentional.

[Uncle]

quality of minions and how they synergies with Masters, 1 model that has good synergy with a Master is far better than 3 models that have weak synergy with all Masters. If you look at the Neverborn models I think you will agree that Iggy synergises better with Kaeris who will take him often far better than Neverborn that just might consider him. The Silurid are going to be used far more often by Marcus than Zoraida. Neverborn gain some Effigies which will work well with Collodi or Zoraida. Guild gain Fire Gamin, which are damn good to go with Avatar Sonnia. Rezers lack a bit in overall number of models, but I do think overall get a far more solid set of minions than some other factions. Leveticus gets a Rider from out of faction, that has far more synergy with him than the Silurid and Iggy have with the Neverborn, and a Watcher that can tie down the enemy so you can nuke them.

Here's the thing, Ratty: look at those models and tell me how many will actually see competitive play?

Kaeris still doesn't have what it takes in my eyes. She's received a major boost, but that just brings her from having 2 minions to being somewhat playable.

Marcus is still Marcus, unfortunately, and a very weak Avatar doesn't help him see play more often. You'll likely be seeing more Sillurids with him than with the Neverborn, but you're unlikely to be seeing Sillurids, period.

Sonnia's avatar doesn't strike me as worth the cost--although I may be wrong here. I don't see people scrambling to pick up Fire Gamin for her.

Likewise with Leveticus--the Four Horsemen is kind of a neat gimmick for a game or two, but it will likely wear thin. It's a possibility that the Pale Rider will show up, of course, but not much of one.

Whereas you have Collodi, who was already considered a fairly competitive model (and certainly one of the top-tier Henchmen). And it just got a major boost with the Effigies, none of whom will likely see much play with their supposed faction.

[nilus]

Also, the 'they were released for Collodi' is a nasty trend to see. Now, this isn't anti-Neverborn specifically but; two books have now passed and Molly has 3 models she can take.

Uhmm no

Molly may take

Necrotic Machine

Grave spirit

Rotten Belles

Sybelle

The three head undead beast in book 2 I can't remember the name of at the moment

Dead Doxy

Crooligans.

So 5 minions, and 2 totems.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Yeah, I don't agree that all the Rezzer minions are sub-par, but I really don't see much use for the Carrion Effigy. He's pricy at 4SS cost, doesn't give you any base abilities that warrant inclusion, like arcane reservoir, and doesn't have any real survivability. The only reason to take him is his ability to strip immunity to terror, and the aura is so small that in order to utilize it he will have to be up in the thick of things which is exactly where you don't want him. if the aura was large, like 12" I could see him being worth his cost, barely.

I don't know, for 4ss he seems very... useless.

Does someone see something with him that I'm missing?

[nilus]

I'm not sure very many would pass that test. They look fun, and change the playstyle of many masters, but that in itself doesn't make them worthy.

Off the top of my head, here are the ones I think work well in the current tournament model.

Sonnia

Lady Justice

Ramos

Marcus

Zoriada

Seamus

Nicodem

Viktorias

Som'er Teeth

[karn987]

Here's the thing, Ratty: look at those models and tell me how many will actually see competitive play?

There is far more casual play then real competitive play. Before this goes further, let me clarify. When I say competitive play, I mean the out for blood, any thing to win play. Where fun becomes being the winner. Things like the Master Tournament, or the big UK events where people are looking for recognition or prizes.

This is a game after all, some times things are designed to be fun and cool rather then the next tournament conquering monster. Take the Riders as a great example. It is incredibly cool that Levy can take all 4 of them and gets even better that he becomes the 5th Rider. Is it terrible competitive? Maybe not, but who cares? It's for the fun of it and some people will use it because they want to.

These will all see the table because people want to play with them. Competitive play is a small subset of why people play this game as most are still just looking to have a good time. I firmly believe most players are willing to build their lists to have fun with rather then be the best. Sure they like to win, but they will still use what they find entertaining. People will still enter events, LGS tournies etc with all of these. As long as they are cool, awesome, fun to play etc, people will use them.

So the simple fact is, all of them will see the table and all of them will get a good amount of use. Be it casual games, LGS events, Wyrd Events, competitive games, or high exposure tournaments etc... they will all see play and that is what really matters.

Edited August 24, 2011 by karn987

[nilus]

Guild: Hoffman (although I do not believe it makes Hoffman competitive). I think Perdita's triggers are a little off, and she doesn't really need to manifest, and Sonnia just doesn't seem to be all that useful. Casting Master, really? Justice doesn't work.

I agree with Perdita.

Sonnia and LJ I disagree greatly on. Burning tokens are really good and Sonnia can pump them out all over. And then they give bonus damage to searing wave. She can be nasty

LJ is a great support, buff master. I think a lot of people keep looking at her melee abilities and really I think they are a bit of a red hearing. Look at her ability to bury a model within 12" of herself. And she can do that multiple times. Her buffs are also good. Her main problem is you need to get her into melee to manifest.

[karn987]

Off the top of my head, here are the ones I think work well in the current tournament model.

Sonnia

Lady Justice

Ramos

Marcus

Zoriada

Seamus

Nicodem

Viktorias

Som'er Teeth

I would honestly also add Pandora to this list. Its going to be a bit situational, but there is a lot of potential wrapped up in our box wielding women.

Otherwise, I do kinda think Hoffman would do very well because his Avatar is a great emergency button. So for 2ss, especially if this is a 40ss tourney, I think he'd show up most every game just for that last ditch resort.

But then again, time will tell. Though it's certainly a discussion that is happening on an Avatar by Avatar basis around the Forum and I'm sure LGS's all over.

[Uncle]

There is far more casual play then real competitive play. Before this goes further, let me clarify. When I say competitive play, I mean the out for blood, any thing to win play. Where fun becomes being the winner. Things like the Master Tournament, or the big UK events where people are looking for recognition or prizes.

There is no reason to balance anything for "casual play." If a game is fun, it does not matter that some things are skewed. People are having fun, right?

It is only when people stop being nice and start being competitive that balance matters, unless it's really out of whack. Luckily, Malifaux's not at that point at all. Therefore, if a model is only going to be used when someone is goofing around, for competitive play, it does not exist.

I don't even really understand the concept of debating casual play on the boards. If you want to play what you think is fun, you don't really need my input on that, do you? Can I tell you how to have more fun?

Sonnia and LJ I disagree greatly on. Burning tokens are really good and Sonnia can pump them out all over. And then they give bonus damage to searing wave. She can be nasty

LJ is a great support, buff master. I think a lot of people keep looking at her melee abilities and really I think they are a bit of a red hearing. Look at her ability to bury a model within 12" of herself. And she can do that multiple times. Her buffs are also good. Her main problem is you need to get her into melee to manifest.

Nilus, you and I are going to agree extremely rarely. I've come to terms with that.

Sonnia replaces the ability to deal reliable damage for the ability to hand out burning tokens. I don't consider that a fair trade. Her one truly useful damaging spell is also a 0 and requires a 10 or higher to cast. Just... Not something I'm terribly frightened of.

Likewise, Justice takes a melee beatstick with some minor buffing abilities and turns her into a buffbot with a handful of melee beating ability. But first, she has to get into melee. I don't get it.

[Math Mathonwy]

Not only are we debating the balance of a book that nobody here could possibly have gotten significant play time in with but, amazingly, everyone is still on the exact same side of the debate after having experienced it.

I think we really have given up on trying to lend any sort of actual experience or real evidence to this argument, and it has just become a dogmatic pursuit on both sides.

I almost get the feeling people are sitting there, sifting through the book they must have just gotten looking for things to support their arguments.

Dude, there was one person who said anything about balance in book three and that was mostly about pointing out a trend. No one else said anything else of consequence about book 3 (Karn said something, I replied to him - neither of the posts was saying that book 3 is broken or anything like that).

Please stop trying to make silly strawmen and paint all of your opposition with a big brush only because it suits your argument (or here, apparently, your sense of superiority or something like that as there doesn't seem to be a real argument there) - it doesn't reflect well on you.

[nix]

I agree with Perdita.

Sonnia and LJ I disagree greatly on. Burning tokens are really good and Sonnia can pump them out all over. And then they give bonus damage to searing wave. She can be nasty

LJ is a great support, buff master. I think a lot of people keep looking at her melee abilities and really I think they are a bit of a red hearing. Look at her ability to bury a model within 12" of herself. And she can do that multiple times. Her buffs are also good. Her main problem is you need to get her into melee to manifest.

Its interesting that the initial board opinion of Avatar Justice is awfully similar to the initial playtest impression. All I can say is once people get the hang of the change in play-style and crew construction to make her work well, watch out.

[Necromorph]

Its interesting that the initial board opinion of Avatar Justice is awfully similar to the initial playtest impression. All I can say is once people get the hang of the change in play-style and crew construction to make her work well, watch out.

Yeah I've used her a couple times already....she's pretty brutal, and she can still kill pretty well too...she just has a different approach now.