Exorcist - one too many anti-resurrectionists?

[Ratty]

Really? You are telling me that it is balanced because Wyrd had the decency to let Nightmares be targetable by melee attacks? I just do not understand why Wyrd seems to want to make nothing living. They designed a good deal of the game around living models, morale duels ect, and then go way out of their way to hose that entire area of the game. I don't see them putting bulletproof on 80% of the stuff coming out to nerf shooting. They even go as far as to do it within their own faction. Spirits no counters, Guild Autopsies no counters, Dead Rider, less counters then the base would suggest. I have mentioned this before, and I think that it will start to shift the other direction, but they are setting a precedent. Guild is going to have a portion of its forces constructs for Hoff, Rezzers will have to dedicate some of their stuff to spirits, Arcanists are already going to have a good amount of constructs as is, and Neverborn are going to have to add more Nightmares for the dreamer, Haemlin has counter denial, Levi is mostly constructs and undead, no one plays Gremlins competitively so that is a joke. I have not seen Book 3 yet, so I can not tell if the trends from Book 2 will be continued, but if they are I fear it will only get harder for Rezzers.

A decent Rezer player does not need the opponent for corpse counters, you have to be. McMourning can harvest his own troops to give him a jump start. Seamus hits saturation with his own crew most games, he rarely can summon more than 3 Belles. Nicodem with a decent setup can hit saturation with his own troops, especially with Mortimer. Kirai can easily run with no summoning due to her speed. I don't think it matters that Ressurectionist get more spirits, it will only really matter if your facing Kirai, no other Ressurectionist Master is going to go heavy on spirits as they can't afford to lose the counter drop, as I said most Rezer players will run so they generate their own counters so they can't afford to take too many spirits.

Note 18 out of the 25 non-Effigy minions in the book 3 drop counters and out of those 15 of them take Moral duels. It's not bad odds.

[Justin]

no one plays Gremlins competitively so that is a joke.

By this time next year, people will be making threads demanding Som'er gets a nerf.

And I will feast on their pain.

[ProdigalPunk]

A decent Rezer player does not need the opponent for corpse counters, you have to be. McMourning can harvest his own troops to give him a jump start. Seamus hits saturation with his own crew most games, he rarely can summon more than 3 Belles. Nicodem with a decent setup can hit saturation with his own troops, especially with Mortimer. Kirai can easily run with no summoning due to her speed. I don't think it matters that Ressurectionist get more spirits, it will only really matter if your facing Kirai, no other Ressurectionist Master is going to go heavy on spirits as they can't afford to lose the counter drop, as I said most Rezer players will run so they generate their own counters so they can't afford to take too many spirits.

So to be clear:

1) Rezzers are suppose to either kill their own models or wait for their opponent to kill their models so they can summon more.

2) Rezzer player are not suppose to take a third of their options because as stated above, their stuff is suppose to die so they can get the resource their army requires.

3) Mortimer is now required to run in a Nico list.

Can you give examples of these types of stipulations in other armies? (Henchmen do not count). I think it is still viable to run a rezzer list, I just think Book 2 in particular sort of took the rezzers schtick and kicked it in its teeth. Seamus is not really the rezzer summon master in the slightest, but all the non-living stuff does him dirty all the same. I am just saying, what other factions get hosed in the same way Rezzers do? I would also love to see a Kirai list that is competitive without summoning.

Note 18 out of the 25 non-Effigy minions in the book 3 drop counters and out of those 15 of them take Moral duels. It's not bad odds.

These are numbers I would be more happy with. I am all for factions diversifying and getting cool stuff, and going in different directions. I am just not happy that each faction has anti-Rezzer capabilities. Guild take LJ or Hoff (I am ok with Lady J since that is her thing), Arcanists, Raspuitina or Ramos will be more then happy to ignore those morale duals and drop no counters for you, Neverborn Dreamer will do the same thing, Outcasts Levi as well. Again if anyone wants to prove me wrong and do that with the other factions then I am all for it.

I guess I just see Resurectionist identity getting murky. Lilith makes for better Grow Lists over all, Dreamer swarms better. This leaves summoning and terror/morale. If 80% of the armies I face are going to ignore morale and not give me counters then it is really just a poor mans grow list, so see Lilith.

Might just be my view of the Rezzer faction is different then it should be though, so if anyone sees them differently then feel free to share.

[Dolomyte]

By this time next year, people will be making threads demanding Som'er gets a cuddle.

And I will feast on their pain.

I hope the vassal module gets the go ahead so we can start testing this out right now.

[Justin]

I hope the vassal module gets the go ahead so we can start testing this out right now.

That's actually an interesting point. (all kidding aside)

A way for people all over the world to play each other, and get games more frequently, would definitely lift the fog on a lot of this.

[Q'iq'el]

This seriously is some serious collapse in our forum's standard. >.< We are no longer discussing mechanics, we are not analyzing the arguments. It's religious war. I blame it on the frustration caused by the long wait for the Book 3 and the Gencon orders... but:

Can these threads get locked? Can we get a policy where every balance discussion which isn't supported by at least an attempt to show how the alleged "breakage" works in practice be locked?

Or perhaps a voting system to mark down such posts?

[Q'iq'el]

That's actually an interesting point. (all kidding aside)

A way for people all over the world to play each other, and get games more frequently, would definitely lift the fog on a lot of this.

I used to play 40K vassal from time to time. The difference between on-screen mechanics and the real game is too big, IMO, to draw any immediate conclusions. Even if Malifaux abstract terrain translates better into 2D on-screen board, it still basically is an artificial environment with obvious LoS and too-perfect measurements (not to mention it's almost a pre-measured play).

[Justin]

This seriously is some serious collapse in our forum's standard. >.< We are no longer discussing mechanics, we are not analyzing the arguments. It's religious war. I blame it on the frustration caused by the long wait for the Book 3 and the Gencon orders... but:

Can these threads get locked? Can we get a policy where every balance discussion which isn't supported by at least an attempt to show how the alleged "breakage" works in practice be locked?

Or perhaps a voting system to mark down such posts?

Ah. So you admit that Neverborn are broken.

[Dolomyte]

This seriously is some serious collapse in our forum's standard. >.< We are no longer discussing mechanics, we are not analyzing the arguments. It's religious war. I blame it on the frustration caused by the long wait for the Book 3 and the Gencon orders... but:

Can these threads get locked? Can we get a policy where every balance discussion which isn't supported by at least an attempt to show how the alleged "breakage" works in practice be locked?

Or perhaps a voting system to mark down such posts?

Why dont you just not read and post in these threads? your above post does not contribute to what I think overall has been a really good thread with alot of valid points raised.

I don't read or post in the fluff threads, because they either annoy me or I don't care. If you are annoyed by these discussion or threads you do not have to participate in them.

[Justin]

I used to play 40K vassal from time to time. The difference between on-screen mechanics and the real game is too big' date=' IMO, to draw any immediate conclusions. Even if Malifaux abstract terrain translates better into 2D on-screen board, it still basically is an artificial environment with obvious LoS and too-perfect measurements (not to mention it's almost a pre-measured play).[/quote']

I never played Vassal for any other system before. I'm not terribly surprised.

[Math Mathonwy]

So were you able to deal with him?

I was, but that's not the point (I can't remember the last time I lost though I tend to win something like 90% of the skirmish games I play (though some people whose name starts with an R tend to beat me)).

But this isn't really anything new, and there isn't really all that much more of it in Book 2

Guild got Hoffman, a construct Master. Lucius has a living crew, though.

Ressers got Kirai, a spirit Master. Molly didn't get much of anything.

Arcanists got Colette who has a living crew. Kaeris has lots of Constructs but one living minion as well.

Neverborn got Dreamer (nightmares) and Collodi (puppets).

Outcasts got Hamelin (a weird case), Von Schill (living) and Ophelia (living).

So yeah, half of the Book 2 doesn't drop corpse counters and is immune to terror. Want me to compare that to Book 1?

And the thing is, that if you know you're facing Ressers, every faction now offers a choice that doesn't drop corpse counters and doesn't care about terrifying.

[Q'iq'el]

Ah. So you admit that Neverborn are broken.

They broke the forums. If that isn't breakage, I don't know what is.

[Q'iq'el]

Why dont you just not read and post in these threads? your above post does not contribute to what I think overall has been a really good thread with alot of valid points raised.

Because I do care about standard to which the game is developed. I think it is very high. I also think, that if these forums are to matter in the development process, we need to enforce certain standards in the discussion about the balance and game mechanics.

Otherwise the players who have any clue will simply move to other venues, private forums and such, and the community will more or less be presented with tournaments and rulesets developed behind their backs - that has already happened in other systems, so we know it will happen here.

Last but not least - as to the validity of the points being made. I can judge only these I have direct knowledge of. Some are just repeating ad-nausem arguments which have no standing at all from practical point of view.

Not to be empty worded: Nicodem is the first master I painted and one I play a lot both with and against. I have almost complete collection of all the models he can raise so I can field practically every list except for heavy Canine Remains spam. I'm perfectly sure that in a normal game Nicodem is hard pressed to Reanimate more than 5~6 minions, because of the AP limits, because of the need to do other stuff and because of the lack of good cards in the Control Hand.

So why do I still hear the crying about Nightmares? Sure, they limit the rate at which you get your Body Counters, but they don't affect the number of reanimated minions heavily, so why the false argument about Nightmare characteristic breaking Nicodem is being repeated?

Is it because Nicodem must smash and kill bodies to win, or is it because players cannot wrap their heads around the change in the body counters production rate and start to cry for cuddles first?

It simply isn't a valid point. I'm sure there are other points that are as invalid, but without any proper argumentation one cannot even address them. I may be off with some of my estimates, but at the very least people can point out where I am wrong - that should be possible with every post made.

If experienced players repeatedly refute an argument but are being consistently ignored, this is not only quite an irritating behavior as far as public discussions go, but it also means the quality of discussion is so low nobody will be able to base any judgement on it.

[ProdigalPunk]

Because I do care about standard to which the game is developed. I think it is very high. I also think, that if these forums are to matter in the development process, we need to enforce certain standards in the discussion about the balance and game mechanics.

Otherwise the players who have any clue will simply move to other venues, private forums and such, and the community will more or less be presented with tournaments and rulesets developed behind their backs - that has already happened in other systems, so we know it will happen here.

Last but not least - as to the validity of the points being made. I can judge only these I have direct knowledge of. Some are just repeating ad-nausem arguments which have no standing at all from practical point of view.

Not to be empty worded: Nicodem is the first master I painted and one I play a lot both with and against. I have almost complete collection of all the models he can raise so I can field practically every list except for heavy Canine Remains spam. I'm perfectly sure that in a normal game Nicodem is hard pressed to Reanimate more than 5~6 minions, because of the AP limits, because of the need to do other stuff and because of the lack of good cards in the Control Hand.

So why do I still hear the crying about Nightmares? Sure, they limit the rate at which you get your Body Counters, but they don't affect the number of reanimated minions heavily, so why the false argument about Nightmare characteristic breaking Nicodem is being repeated?

Is it because Nicodem must smash and kill bodies to win, or is it because players cannot wrap their heads around the change in the body counters production rate and start to cry for cuddles first?

It simply isn't a valid point. I'm sure there are other points that are as invalid, but without any proper argumentation one cannot even address them. I may be off with some of my estimates, but at the very least people can point out where I am wrong - that should be possible with every post made.

If experienced players repeatedly refute an argument but are being consistently ignored, this is not only quite an irritating behavior as far as public discussions go, but it also means the quality of discussion is so low nobody will be able to base any judgement on it.

Please cite where someone said it should be cuddled.

Also feel free to answer any of the questions I actually asked, instead of merely making assumptions and distorting other peoples posts.

[Justin]

Because I do care about standard to which the game is developed. I think it is very high. I also think, that if these forums are to matter in the development process, we need to enforce certain standards in the discussion about the balance and game mechanics.

Otherwise the players who have any clue will simply move to other venues, private forums and such, and the community will more or less be presented with tournaments and rulesets developed behind their backs - that has already happened in other systems, so we know it will happen here.

This is a pretty good point. (Sorry, I keep alternating from being totally silly to totally serious. It's how I do)

But I agree. Although, nobody who is bringing up invalid points and relying on statistics that are far too shallow actually thinks they are. So how can we realistically expect people to self regulate?

[Q'iq'el]

Please cite where someone said it should be cuddled.

Also feel free to answer any of the questions I actually asked, instead of merely making assumptions and distorting other peoples posts.

Actually I have posted some of those multiple times in my previous posts, so feel free to read this and other threads fully.

[Dolomyte]

If experienced players repeatedly refute an argument but are being consistently ignored' date=' this is not only quite an irritating behavior as far as public discussions go, but it also means the quality of discussion is so low nobody will be able to base any judgement on it.[/quote']

Myself, Prodigal, Nix, Calmdown, Lalo, Math, Sephiroa, Jonas, ispep, hatchethead, silverchocobo, razhem, and Edonil have all posted in the first few pages agreeing that

Alps are and or may be an issue

Lelitu's interaction with Nekima is and or may be an issue

that some of the schemes and strategies have faulty interactions.

What experienced player besides yourself are we ignoring, and note, no one ignored you, any time you posted a valid point (IE your nekima suggestion, which also indicates you think the interaction is broken), someone, often myself, has answered it with a follow up point or question.

[Dolomyte]

Actually I have posted some of those multiple times in my previous posts' date=' so feel free to read this and other threads fully.[/quote']

Or your could go back and answer one of the questions.

[ispep]

Because I do care about standard to which the game is developed. I think it is very high. I also think, that if these forums are to matter in the development process, we need to enforce certain standards in the discussion about the balance and game mechanics.

Otherwise the players who have any clue will simply move to other venues, private forums and such, and the community will more or less be presented with tournaments and rulesets developed behind their backs - that has already happened in other systems, so we know it will happen here.

Last but not least - as to the validity of the points being made. I can judge only these I have direct knowledge of. Some are just repeating ad-nausem arguments which have no standing at all from practical point of view.

Not to be empty worded: Nicodem is the first master I painted and one I play a lot both with and against. I have almost complete collection of all the models he can raise so I can field practically every list except for heavy Canine Remains spam. I'm perfectly sure that in a normal game Nicodem is hard pressed to Reanimate more than 5~6 minions, because of the AP limits, because of the need to do other stuff and because of the lack of good cards in the Control Hand.

So why do I still hear the crying about Nightmares? Sure, they limit the rate at which you get your Body Counters, but they don't affect the number of reanimated minions heavily, so why the false argument about Nightmare characteristic breaking Nicodem is being repeated?

Is it because Nicodem must smash and kill bodies to win, or is it because players cannot wrap their heads around the change in the body counters production rate and start to cry for cuddles first?

It simply isn't a valid point. I'm sure there are other points that are as invalid, but without any proper argumentation one cannot even address them. I may be off with some of my estimates, but at the very least people can point out where I am wrong - that should be possible with every post made.

If experienced players repeatedly refute an argument but are being consistently ignored, this is not only quite an irritating behavior as far as public discussions go, but it also means the quality of discussion is so low nobody will be able to base any judgement on it.

Aggressive moderation does not lead to productive discussions. It kills communities. If every time a thread gets "heated" it gets locked, eventually people stop trying and nobody posts anything of use. Start locking all the balance threads, and soon the only threads you'll see are "I like the way crew X looks, but my buddy is already playing it, what should I do?" The someone says "play y, they are better anyways" and the thread is locked, since its turning into a debate about who's stronger.

A community should be about the free exchange of ideas, not making people afraid to discuss things.

[ispep]

Myself, Prodigal, Nix, Calmdown, Lalo, Math, Sephiroa, Jonas, ispep, hatchethead, silverchocobo, razhem, and Edonil have all posted in the first few pages agreeing that

Alps are and or may be an issue

Lelitu's interaction with Nekima is and or may be an issue

that some of the schemes and strategies have faulty interactions.

What experienced player besides yourself are we ignoring, and note, no one ignored you, any time you posted a valid point (IE your nekima suggestion, which also indicates you think the interaction is broken), someone, often myself, has answered it with a follow up point or question.

Hey, I never said anything about any of those things. I said it isn't fun to lose, so if you are going to play, play to win. And that the way gamers are trained from other games is so deeply ingrained that a radical new system such as "play the strategies, not to table your opponent" are bound to fail.

[Dolomyte]

Hey, I never said anything about any of those things. I said it isn't fun to lose, so if you are going to play, play to win. And that the way gamers are trained from other games is so deeply ingrained that a radical new system such as "play the strategies, not to table your opponent" are bound to fail.

Sorry, I mistook that post and a few of your back and forths with sephoria

[Q'iq'el]

I'm not refering to the thread in its entirety or to the initial posts. Obviously people are presenting their point of view at first, analyzing each other arguments and it's hard to say what the outcome would be.

But then we're at page 28 and the entire argument about Nightmares returns again and it the worst possible format - half-accusing half-ridiculing tone of questioning, where Nicodem's inadequacy is presumed and the proof he is not broken is expected from others. This is not the way to do it.

I understand this is a monster-thread, but if someone comes late to the argument and still wants to post, please take your time and read it first.

And because people are not posting examples to illustrate their points, we can't even tell if they play it right or wrong. I've seen an example of Bête Noire usage which went exactly against recent forum ruling by WS (if that still holds, my bad if it was revoked). Despite my very long experience with Nicodem, I cannot fathom why people insist on having to get 6 or 9 Mindless Zombies (what else would you need early Body Counters from your opponent for?). I have a lingering suspicion people play Mindless Zombies wrong and in result need more of them than necessary to stay safe (pointer -> you decide if you cancel the attack with your MZ after the attack hits: in other words, after the duel is finalized).

After 3 or 4 posts in the Neverborn thread, about how card-intensive can the Luring/Double Take combo be to the Neverborn player, someone come out of the woods stating it's been pointed out the action drains the cards only from the opponent, never from the Neverborn. After Karn's post which step by step explained how the combo works and gave real costs for every step?

How many mistakes and misunderstandings actually affect the perceptions of these combos? How many points are invalid simply because they are based on wrong rules' interpretation? And how are we to judge them if we do not make it clear you need to document your every point with a step-by-step explanation?

Edited August 24, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Q'iq'el]

A community should be about the free exchange of ideas, not making people afraid to discuss things.

Does a requirement to properly document arguments actually scares people away? What does it say about the quality of the contribution?

I'm all for free exchange of ideas, being a researcher myself. Moderation doesn't have to be about bans and keeping the heat down though. It can be about maintaining standards where the discussion gets too complex to allow emotions and misunderstandings to murk the things further.

[Dolomyte]

I'm not refering to the thread in its entirety or to the initial posts. Obviously people are presenting their point of view at first, analyzing each other arguments and it's hard to say what the outcome would be.

But then we're at page 28 and the entire argument about Nightmares returns again and it the worst possible format - half-accusing half-ridiculing tone of questioning, where Nicodem's inadequacy is presumed and the proof he is not broken is expected from others. This is not the way to do it.

I understand this is a monster-thread, but if someone comes late to the argument and still wants to post, please take your time and read it first.

And because people are not posting examples to illustrate their points, we can't even tell if they play it right or wrong. I've seen an example of Bête Noire usage which went exactly against recent forum ruling by WS (if that still holds, my bad if it was revoked). Despite my very long experience with Nicodem, I cannot fathom why people insist on having to get 6 or 9 Mindless Zombies (what else would you need early Body Counters from your opponent for?). I have a lingering suspicion people play Mindless Zombies wrong and in result need more of them than necessary to stay safe (pointer -> you decide if you cancel the attack with your MZ after the attack hits: in other words, after the duel is finalized).

After 3 or 4 posts in the Neverborn thread, about how card-intensive can the Luring/Dual Take combo be to the Neverborn player, someone come out of the woods stating it's been pointed out the action drains the cards only from the opponent, never from the Neverborn. After Karn's post which step by step explained how the combo works and gave real costs for every step?

How many mistakes and misunderstandings actually affect the perceptions of these combos? How many points are invalid simply because they are based on wrong rules' interpretation? And how are we to judge them if we do not make it clear you need to document your every point with a step-by-step explanation?

I think that is partly because we need to assume intelligence and forsight on the people posting in the threads. I want to believe that people will post with a knowledge of what is going on 99% of time, and they occasionally make a minor mistake. If you feel something is questionable, and want it spelled out exactly, you should ask for that. In the same way Lalo asked about why I thought the pigapult thing would not work in the neverborn thread.

Instead your just asking we stop discussing the threads and have them locked and be done with, which does not help the issue at all. If you think someone makes a point that is wrong or incorrect, or want it explained further, ask them to do so. I've asked plenty of people follow up questions.

[Soundwave]

Witchling handlers - one too many anti-Arcanists?