Exorcist - one too many anti-resurrectionists?

[mythicFOX]

The fact is they just released a book and didnt even try to create game balance with it - the best masters got the best Avatars, the worst masters got the worst Avatars (arguable and unsubstantiated with anything but anecdotes from people who I trust that have read the book, granted).

......

That entire paragraph assumes that tournaments are run without proper terrain. Where's your evidence to support that? Otherwise that entire argument can be disregarded.

Am the only one that lol'ed at this?

Can't have your cake and eat it mate.

[Calmdown]

Am the only one that lol'ed at this?

Can't have your cake and eat it mate.

There's a whole caveat to my comment in brackets after I make it, so...not really.

Let's also look at this little gem from the masters thread:

From Bill of Gamer's Lounge:

Total tourney breakdown: 10 neverborn, 7 outcast, 6 resurrectionist, 4 arcanist, 3 guild

final tables 4 neverborn. Standings 1. NB 2. NB 3. Outcast. Top 8 was 4 nb, 3 outcast, 1 res

For someone with intimate knowledge of the UK tournament scene I can't say there's any surprise in the breakdown of the field or those results.

Your support in this matter is appreciated.

Edited August 23, 2011 by Calmdown

[Justin]

When the Masters next year is 75% Neverborn we'll have this discussion again and you can tell me again how wrong I am that there's an issue.

I'm just going to respond to this, because I think it's important.

Did I ever tell you once how wrong you were?

Did I ever once say there wasn't an issue?

Nope.

I just said it was a difficult issue to fix, and that it was something rather inherent to miniatures games over other types of games.

[Calmdown]

I'm just going to respond to this, because I think it's important.

Did I ever tell you once how wrong you were?

Did I ever once say there wasn't an issue?

Nope.

I just said it was a difficult issue to fix, and that it was something rather inherent to miniatures games over other types of games.

You imply that there is no balance issue, and that it is perceived because I'm a ccg player. If that is not what you were implying, I fail to see the point in your post as it is therefore unrelated to this dicussion, unless you just wanted to write a diatrabe on game balance in various games.

But you said/I said is a waste of forum space so let's not get into that.

Edit: In fact this whole thing is getting argumentative now, so lets forget it.

Edited August 23, 2011 by Calmdown

[mythicFOX]

There's a whole caveat to my comment in brackets after I make it, so...not really.

Let's also look at this little gem from the masters thread:

Your support in this matter is appreciated.

You told another poster his comments should be disregarded because he had no evidence to back them up, then wrote comments admitting you had no evidence, in the same post. Just pointing out it's a double standard.

I stand by my quote from the masters thread.

Edited August 23, 2011 by mythicFOX
typo

[Justin]

You imply that there is no balance issue, and that it is perceived because I'm a ccg player. If that is not what you were implying, I fail to see the point in your post as it is therefore unrelated to this dicussion, unless you just wanted to write a diatrabe on game balance in various games.

But you said/I said is a waste of forum space so let's not get into that.

Not what I implied at all. So if we go with your black and white way of looking at it, yes my post was totally off topic. Crap, why did I spin off like that when you were all having a pleasant conversation about the exorcist?

(Friendly teasing! FRIENDLY TEASING!)

My point was not that you perceive a balance issue that is not there. My point is that there is, absolutely, a balance issue. And further, my point is that all miniatures games have this balance issue, and that they are caused by things which are fundamental to miniatures games themselves.

Edit: just saw your edit. And that's fine. Forgotten.

[Q'iq'el]

Someone needs to calm down.

And I also think we're going to see more threads like that as with the growth of the community we'll be getting not only the Malifaux fans, but also the secondary players, picking up the game their friends play and not being all that satisfied with things they see.

And for that reason, I'm beginning to think Ranking HQ are really great idea. They will in time give us real data for the tournament performance, not an inadequate sample affected by local meta-game.

[Cunning]

And I also think we're going to see more threads like that as with the growth of the community we'll be getting not only the Malifaux fans, but also the secondary players, picking up the game their friends play and not being all that satisfied with things they see.

I can tell you this is not the case with Calmdown. He's one of the most active Malifaux players at our club and is a very good player. He loves the game even with it's flaws.

I think people take it a bit personally when their game is criticised and overreact causing a cascade of arguments. I know i've done it from time to time.

I agree to an extent that Neverborn are more powerful than the other factions at the moment but then the game is still very new. Hopefully over time this will all even out a bit more but I don't think there is any miniature game where all sides are completely even.

[Q'iq'el]

I'm not accusing Calmdown of being unfair. I think he does over-react quite a bit. The problem with posts of this kind is not that they are wrong, but that they set the tone of the debate.

I'm perfectly OK with people bringing real issues and documenting them really solidly. We all know that Wyrd *HAS* acted on such posts in the past. Enough to see how Link has been adjusted or Master of Malifaux changed multiple times. Some abilities, in the past, have been toned down until there's a fix, and then returned to their former power level - see the above-mentioned MoM which for around 6 months was completely turned off (it did nothing for Lilith till after Raising Powers were released and the wording has been reversed to original).

I'm pretty sure if someone can really document a single ability or combo to be game-breakingly powerful, Wyrd will act fast. But recently all we get is hearsay, more or less ego-centric statements and some pseudo-statistic data which isn't really data at all (first because the sample is waaaay too small, secondly, because statistics are complicated tools to show trends, not universal method to measure everything. They may show A is more popular than B, but you need a Ph.D. to be able to tell why and you're likely going to be wrong anyway.).

And for the record, I don't think Neverborn are all that overpowered or even more powerful than other factions. I think they are very straightforward to play (even Pandora and Zoraida) and their chief ability is damaging and killing. From all the abilities one needs to succeed in Malifaux, this is the one players wrap their heads around the easiest and the fastest. They also consider it the most important.

That, and the often discussed aesthetic factors, mean the Neverborn are over-represented. This is, in the history of the game, rather short trend though. Guild has been over-represented when I joined, around February 2010, and the Ressurectionists managed to get their day in the spotlight too (anyone remembers these threads "Everyone in my club plays Rezzers, what to do, what to do?"). I don't think these general trends speak about balance, but they speak about perceptions.

So when the perception is Neverborn are the most powerful faction, the arguments to that effect require double-scrunity and especially hard data, as they can easily be the result of the general state of the players' mind at the moment.

Edited August 23, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Calmdown]

I'm pretty sure if someone can really document a single ability or combo to be game-breakingly powerful, Wyrd will act fast. But recently all we get is hearsay, more or less ego-centric statements and some pseudo-statistic data which isn't really data at all (first because the sample is waaaay too small, secondly, because statistics are complicated tools to show trends, not universal method to measure everything. They may show A is more popular than B, but you need a Ph.D. to be able to tell why and you're likely going to be wrong anyway.).

I think what you miss here is that it isnt a single ability that is gamebreakingly powerful. There is nothing to document and say "this one ability that Stitched Together has is too good" because it could be easily refuted by saying "this ability that Guild Austringer has it too good". Simply it's a large combination of factors, some statistical (rules on cards, abilities of minions and masters) and some environmental (standard tournament rules) that all combine to make one faction the overarching best.

I don't think, in fact, that most people dispute this but most people also think that it's fine and are happy to live with it. I suppose the crux of the argument is that if we pay for a game, why should we be happy to live with it being broken, even if the break is only small?

[Q'iq'el]

I don't think, in fact, that most people dispute this but most people also think that it's fine and are happy to live with it. I suppose the crux of the argument is that if we pay for a game, why should we be happy to live with it being broken, even if the break is only small?

I think the crux of the argument is, that if you proclaim the game to be broken on the public forum, you need to *really* *document* *it*.

It's simply irresponsible. If you can bring an example of a thing broken, that's a reasonable argument. People don't have to agree, but it can be argued the way Double Take combo is being argued right now and Wyrd developers are going to pay attention and fix it if convinced.

But if all you say there's no one thing, but the faction is still broken, then you are talking about intangibles and perceptions - nobody can act on that.

It's one thing to present your own opinions as feelings and suspicions, it's another to misrepresent them as facts - they are not facts, until you can prove them. To prove them, you need solid data or a very good argument (supported by math, probabilities, realistic examples of actual games and so on).

I had a quick look through England's data in RHQ and the top 10 players had all sorts of factions - typically getting between 80 and 99 points with them. The only player with 100 points on the list was also considerably better with Neverborn than his other crews, but that's just 1 player - other Neverborn players weren't riding multiple 100 results. And the pool is clearly still very small - just 13 tournaments and not that many players.

In other words, it doesn't prove anything yet.

Edited August 23, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[sephiroa]

you know calmdown if the only thing you can do is "hate" Malifaux, and say it's broken or not working properly than why do you even bother in playing the game?

i already asked several people what they tought of your opinion, they thought it was weird for someone to have so much criticsm on a game and still play it, and every thing you mentioned, they tought differently,

its already 13h since i last saw your posts, and you are still syaing that Malifaux is a broken game with a completely overpowered faction who wins everything

[Justin]

you know calmdown if the only thing you can do is "hate" Malifaux, and say it's broken or not working properly than why do you even bother in playing the game?

i already asked several people what they tought of your opinion, they thought it was weird for someone to have so much criticsm on a game and still play it, and every thing you mentioned, they tought differently,

its already 13h since i last saw your posts, and you are still syaing that Malifaux is a broken game with a completely overpowered faction who wins everything

I would like to say, that nobody who cares so much about whether the game is balanced could possibly hate it. He obviously enjoys the game and, I'm guessing, he also enjoys a good debate.

[Jonas Albrecht]

you know calmdown if the only thing you can do is "hate" Malifaux, and say it's broken or not working properly than why do you even bother in playing the game?

i already asked several people what they tought of your opinion, they thought it was weird for someone to have so much criticsm on a game and still play it, and every thing you mentioned, they tought differently

Oh come the $$$$$$$$ on. This $$$$$$$$? Did you conveniently forget the part where he mentions all of this stems from a desire to improve a game that he enjoys? There's no hate, and posters should feel free to be vocal over the issues they perceive. That's how good games get better, honest criticism. Lord knows we have enough useless sycophants on this board already.

[sephiroa]

I would like to say, that nobody who cares so much about whether the game is balanced could possibly hate it. He obviously enjoys the game and, I'm guessing, he also enjoys a good debate.

this is not a debate anymore,

i said hate because i couldn't thought of another word, maybe dislike would have been better

[sephiroa]

Oh come the $$$$$$$$ on. This $$$$$$$$? Did you conveniently forget the part where he mentions all of this stems from a desire to improve a game that he enjoys? There's no hate, and posters should feel free to be vocal over the issues they perceive. That's how good games get better, honest criticism. Lord knows we have enough useless sycophants on this board already.

well you have honest criticism, and critisicm that keeps on going, wathever somebody else tells him.

[Jonas Albrecht]

well you have honest criticism, and critisicm that keeps on going, wathever somebody else tells him.

He has no reason to stop his stance merely because some people disagree with him, or don't want to hear what he has to say.

[Shank Seamus!]

I'm just gonna repeat what's been mentioned above,

The books barely hit the shelf (still waiting for mine in the UK) and there's allready theory faux bashing, perhaps the question is not, 'why does crew a have this? its soo op' but more 'how do I manoeuvre this to my advantage?'

If you want an auto win list, there's some out there, but if the cards aren't with you/you play a rigid list of tactics there will Allways be something to do you..

Besides 1 model does not a crew make..

SS!

[sephiroa]

He has no reason to stop his stance merely because some people disagree with him, or don't want to hear what he has to say.

i disagree with him, at some point, i agree with him at some point,

I'm willing to listen to everything he has to say. but in a debate your not going to insult people because they have an other opinion

[sephiroa]

I'm just gonna repeat what's been mentioned above,

The books barely hit the shelf (still waiting for mine in the UK) and there's allready theory faux bashing, perhaps the question is not, 'why does crew a have this? its soo op' but more 'how do I manoeuvre this to my advantage?'

If you want an auto win list, there's some out there, but if the cards aren't with you/you play a rigid list of tactics there will Allways be something to do you..

Besides 1 model does not a crew make..

SS!

there are some "auto" win crews, they are just cheesy, but not unbeatable

and like you said, you need a bit of luck and skill,

i can give my brother (guild player) a cheesy neverborn list, and he will lose with relative ease against me with a normal rasputina crew.

that's what i'm saying from the beginning.

1 model doesn't make a crew, but can make the difference

[ukrocky]

So. Er. Exorcist is getting a huge thread...

[Zephir]

So. Er. Exorcist is getting a huge thread...

The What? I thought this was a thread devoted to whining about how one faction or another is broken and Several Wyrd employees ran over someone's dog.

[Q'iq'el]

The What? I thought this was a thread devoted to whining about how one faction or another is broken and Several Wyrd employees ran over someone's dog.

Ran? Ran?!? They fed it to the Neverborn!!! OMG.

[Cunning]

The What? I thought this was a thread devoted to whining about how one faction or another is broken and Several Wyrd employees ran over someone's dog.

I think it's comments like this that are the biggest problem with this thread to be honest.

[Math Mathonwy]

you know calmdown if the only thing you can do is "hate" Malifaux, and say it's broken or not working properly than why do you even bother in playing the game?

i already asked several people what they tought of your opinion, they thought it was weird for someone to have so much criticsm on a game and still play it, and every thing you mentioned, they tought differently,

its already 13h since i last saw your posts, and you are still syaing that Malifaux is a broken game with a completely overpowered faction who wins everything

That's completely ridiculous and totally uncalled for. Take a step back and reassess what you wrote.

I think it's comments like this that are the biggest problem with this thread to be honest.

+1