Sculpting female models

[ispep]

It should also be noted, the vast majority of Malifaux males are hung like Clydesdales.

Including the non-humanoid figures. Have you ever put together a warpig? Or some of the canine remains?

[Math Mathonwy]

IMO the heart of the matter really is that even though there is a huge number of female sculpts in the Malifaux line, they are all white and conform to the most common western beauty standards with just one exception on the beauty front (well, other than the zombies but I'm not sure they count since they are ugly by definition) and two on the whiteness front.

Meanwhile, the male sculpts have all sorts of different body shapes and looks ranging from Levi to Nino to Hoffman to Von Schill to Joss. The Desperate Mercs and the Convict Gunslingers put this trend into a sharp focus.

I like beautiful women just as much as the next guy. But minis games, though about eye-candy, aren't about that sort of eye-candy every time all the time. At least to me. I enjoy painting an Anna Bogda Pavlova every once in a while to counteract all the Nurses and whatnots.

OTOH I understand why Wyrd does this as apparently most male minis gamers simply want the cheesecake and reject the normal looking and less than beautiful female sculpts. This thread is a prime example. A sad state of affairs but I don't begrudge Wyrd for selling what sells.

[CannibalBob]

It's not like the range only has cheesecake models. Sybelle and Zoraida are not the most attractive of models. And while the Rotten Belles still have most of their bits in the right places the spirits with Kirai have quite a bit of shrivelled sagginess going on.

[Math Mathonwy]

It's not like the range only has cheesecake models. Sybelle and Zoraida are not the most attractive of models. And while the Rotten Belles still have most of their bits in the right places the spirits with Kirai have quite a bit of shrivelled sagginess going on.

I believe I addressed these. Zombie girls don't really count as I don't think I've ever seen a good-looking zombie girl since they are supposed to be dead and gross. Similarly, but on the other side of the issue, I would argue that Showgirls don't count as they are by definition good-looking and it would be silly to have other sorts of sculpts for cabaree performers, really.

It's all the female models between these two extremes being uniformly good-looking in the same way (except Zoraida) that I feel is the crux of the matter. While male sculpts have all sorts of body types (Guard Captain, Executioner, Convict) and mugs ranging from ugly to handsome, all the ladies of Malifaux are beatiful of face and trim of body with big, perky boobs.

[Absolution Black]

To be honest, these threads never seem to go well. I think we will all need to just accept that the fantasy wargaming industry as a whole exaggerates their minis....

Its a sculptors personal taste as to what they produce..it is an art form after all, and we will all form opinions on it.

These opinions won't always match, and unfortunately some may be offensive to others.

I guess we shouldn't read too much into it and let wyrd keep producing the models, we'll keep buying them and enjoying the game! They do a pretty good job of varying the sculpts in my opinion.

[Math Mathonwy]

To be honest, these threads never seem to go well. I think we will all need to just accept that the fantasy wargaming industry as a whole exaggerates their minis....

To be fair, the industry tends to exaggerate all the women in the same way while exaggerating male sculpts in many different ways.

Its a sculptors personal taste as to what they produce..it is an art form after all, and we will all form opinions on it.

I'm pretty sure that most sculptors work from concept art and most concept artists are told what to draw by the developers.

I guess we shouldn't read too much into it and let wyrd keep producing the models, we'll keep buying them and enjoying the game! They do a pretty good job of varying the sculpts in my opinion.

You are of the opinion that there is good variety among the female sculpts wrt body types?

[Silveri]

Does my avatar have the boob shadow? As I'm not sure whether you mean the shadow above the boobs or between them?

The crack between the breasts is natural, but the crease on top of the breasts isn't. I'd recommend you to do some empiric research on the issue with a live pair, but speculating further on the issue is a path way too awkward for me to continue on. (short explanation for the rest of you nosy buggers: I'm rather familiar with Math and his wife)

Furthermore, I'm suddenly very self-conscious of my avatar. I just chose it as I consider it one of my better paint jobs... maybe I should I change it.

Nothing wrong with it. Not painting the crease helps a lot. As an additional experiment, take the image of the mini into GIMP or somesuch and tone down the highlights on the top of the breasts near the (non-painted) shadow above the breasts (it's bloody difficult to explain in exact terms - "near the ceiling of the breast") to alleviate the slight remaining beach ball effect a bit and tell me how it affects the result.

[Absolution Black]

To be fair, the industry tends to exaggerate all the women in the same way while exaggerating male sculpts in many different ways.

I'm pretty sure that most sculptors work from concept art and most concept artists are told what to draw by the developers.

You are of the opinion that there is good variety among the female sculpts wrt body types?

Agree, The industry does tend to exaggerate both male and female minis in a particular way....Always has, and i suspect always will.

I guess they work from the concept art, but they probably have some leeway with the final outcome. I can't see Nathan or Eric sitting down however, and saying...'oh she must have big boobs by the way' !

And to be honest, yeah I think there is a good variation...You get the 'big' ladies like Lady J, the more modest showgirls and then the reasonable likes of Rusty Alyce, librarian etc.

Plus you also get Zoraida, but we won't go there!

And I will agree, how a model is painted/shaded makes a lot of difference to this 'problem'.....

[Math Mathonwy]

And to be honest, yeah I think there is a good variation...You get the 'big' ladies like Lady J, the more modest showgirls and then the reasonable likes of Rusty Alyce, librarian etc.

But they all have extremely trim, athletic bodies, all are young and fresh and good looking and so on. Meanwhile the guys come in all shapes and sizes and looks.

[Math Mathonwy]

The crack between the breasts is natural, but the crease on top of the breasts isn't.

Heh, yeah, I formulated my query badly. I meant whether the shadow meant the unnatural shadow between the fake breasts or the shadow between the breast and the upper chest. I mean, true balloon fake breasts have a very unnatural looking crease between them as well.

[dsmiles]

What's all the hubbub, bub?

I honestly don't mind the unnaturally-shaped breasts on most female minis. Especially on 'Victorian-' or 'Steampunk-' style minis, where corsets are generally considered high-fashion. The only ones that bother me are the nude ones, where the breasts are still unnaturally-shaped. I can understand a nude mini of a modern-age woman having unnaturally-shaped breasts, but...

Really?

A succubus with implants, guys?

[Silveri]

For reference images, I suggest watching Julie Bell's artwork. Those women certainly have big breasts, but don't look that much like they are surgically enhanced. One can have fantasy images with big tits without having them look like they've been under the surgeon's blade.

[LonelyPath]

@ Dolomyte - Don't take this the wrong way, but I'm male and find your posts about women and how "most males" do the same highly offensive, bordering on chauvinism and I am a fellow male. I'd also like to mention that I don't know anyone that has such a rating system. Most people i know also find enhanced cleavage to be a giant turn off, me included.

I like natural beauty and that usually comes from within, not from a scalpel

[Stern]

BOOBIES!

That is all!

[Dolomyte]

@Matt - I believe they all, or mostly all have trim and athletic bodies is because they are constantly fighting for their lives. Either against the neverborn, against the guild, etc. Take a tour of uganda and tell me how many fat people there are. I dont feel the need to judge a fantasy game based on whats happening in the real world in well to do countries. (Though, and I believe Q' could confirm this, that japan is a very healthy country, and most people while not athletic are fit)

@Lonelypath - Beauty is more then skin deep, I will agree to that. Attractiveness is not more then skin deep. an ugly person can be a beautiful human being, but an ugly person will never be an attractive one. I'm shocked you do not have a rating system, but hey, to each there own. The fact of the matter is, starting at fourth grade or so, my teacher walked in the classroom, she was prolly 5'4, 5'6. long curly blonde hair, wide white smile, deep green eyes. Miss Preet. I prefer to remember her as miss pretty. God she was hot, ever since then, when I see a woman, or a guy for that matter, my brain in the first five seconds will think "hot, not bad, meh, ugh, jesus mary mother of joseph" and from there I will talk to the person and get to know them. but as a human being I judge on looks first.

If that makes me a chauvinist in today's polite society so be it, I'm not going to sit on here and lie to make people feel better about themselves.

As for fake versus natural, I believe in equal opportunity. Fake might not be your favorite baskin robbins flavor, but I just like sampling them all.

Edit - Miss preet got married while I was in the fifth grade, cut her hair short, and became significantly less attractive. Still stings a bit to this day.

Edited August 12, 2011 by Dolomyte

[Math Mathonwy]

@Matt - I believe they all, or mostly all have trim and athletic bodies is because they are constantly fighting for their lives. Either against the neverborn, against the guild, etc.

But that doesn't, for some reason, extend to the guys? Levi isn't very trim. Neither is Executioner. Or the Guard Captain or the Convict Gunslinger (male version, the female version is very trim). Hamelin the Rat catcher? Santiago? Hoffman? I could go on.

On the other side of the coin there's the Guild gals, Vickys, Taelor, Misaki, Ronins, Nurses... I can't believe I have to post these examples, really, but I suppose that the attitudes are so deeply ingrained that people don't notice their biases anymore.

So yeah, 'fantasy' seems to extend rather selectively to different genders.

[Dolomyte]

But that doesn't, for some reason, extend to the guys? Levi isn't very trim. Neither is Executioner. Or the Guard Captain or the Convict Gunslinger (male version, the female version is very trim). Hamelin the Rat catcher? Santiago? Hoffman? I could go on.

On the other side of the coin there's the Guild gals, Vickys, Taelor, Misaki, Ronins, Nurses... I can't believe I have to post these examples, really, but I suppose that the attitudes are so deeply ingrained that people don't notice their biases anymore.

So yeah, 'fantasy' seems to extend rather selectively to different genders.

The executioner is large, but I would not say he is fat, I think he is more like a strongman. Like have you ever been to ringling brothers circus recently? they have these two huge russian guys who look fat and wear semi-bondage gear, but they lift up 300 pound wooden planks with dancers on them and stuff. Impressive dudes.

Levi is not athletic, but hes pathetically thin. which works with old age.

Hamelin, Santiago, and hoffman all are thin guys, they are not muscle bound behemoths, but one dude was a cripple, jesus give him a break. Hamelin is homeless. Santiago is probably just lazy.

I'll give you the guard captain and the convict, the guard captains typically sit behind a desk and eat, go to a police station and take a look at the sargeant, some of them are fatties. the convict is too busy shooting people to work out.

You have to give me Abuela (chunky in her old age), Zoraida (She was hot young, she is not hot old), Rusty Alyce, Molly (shes not fat, but shes got some extra pounds, and kind of a fugly haircut)

Edit - Don't watch game of thrones on hbo either. They are all super hot. You probably dont want to watch HBO's series Rome, the women there are pretty fit and often wear outfits to accentuate their cleavage. Definitely pass on spartacus on starz. Chicks on lost were all pretty attractive, no go there. Modern family has Sofia and friends, all cute women (can you believe the older daughter is 21, Jesus god she looks young) Married with children had katie segal and christina applegate, Marcy as well, but shes like rusty alyce. Don't read comic books or go see a comic book movie, ALL the women there are ridiculous. Pass on the soaps, though I am a fan of the young and the restless in my unemployment, there is one heavyset women, shes like 80. Wow. Big bang theory has penny and priya and the other two women, all four are pretty hot and thin. 30 rock is an attractive cast.

What can you watch that does not have mostly attractive women in it?

Edited August 12, 2011 by Dolomyte

[Chucklemonkey]

Hamelin, Santiago, and hoffman all are thin guys, they are not muscle bound behemoths, but one dude was a cripple, jesus give him a break. Hamelin is homeless. Santiago is probably just lazy.

I'll give you the guard captain and the convict, the guard captains typically sit behind a desk and eat, go to a police station and take a look at the sargeant, some of them are fatties. the convict is too busy shooting people to work out.

You have to give me Abuela (chunky in her old age), Zoraida (She was hot young, she is not hot old), Rusty Alyce, Molly (shes not fat, but shes got some extra pounds, and kind of a fugly haircut,

Santiago is hardly a fat guy anyway.

Just thought I would pop in to add Sybelle to the list.

[dsmiles]

You have to give me Abuela (chunky in her old age), Zoraida (She was hot young, she is not hot old), Rusty Alyce, Molly (shes not fat, but shes got some extra pounds, and kind of a fugly haircut,

You have to admit it, though. Molly's by far not ugly. She's "cute plump" rather than "ugly fat." I'll give you the haircut, though. She needs a new stylist.

[Math Mathonwy]

The executioner is large, but I would not say he is fat, I think he is more like a strongman. Like have you ever been to ringling brothers circus recently? they have these two huge russian guys who look fat and wear semi-bondage gear, but they lift up 300 pound wooden planks with dancers on them and stuff. Impressive dudes.

Levi is not athletic, but hes pathetically thin. which works with old age.

Hamelin, Santiago, and hoffman all are thin guys, they are not muscle bound behemoths, but one dude was a cripple, jesus give him a break. Hamelin is homeless. Santiago is probably just lazy.

I'll give you the guard captain and the convict, the guard captains typically sit behind a desk and eat, go to a police station and take a look at the sargeant, some of them are fatties. the convict is too busy shooting people to work out.

Two things

1) I wasn't trying to list only fat models but rather models that aren't the epitome of physical perfection (like the female models tend to be).

2) You give reasons why they aren't so. Guess what, those reasons are made up! By the designers who designed the characters. Why couldn't they make a cripple woman? Or a fat woman guard captain? Or whatever unattractive or just less-than-perfect woman minis? Why do only men have these reasons for looking not so good?

Heck, even the Obedient Wretch, supposedly homeless as well, is hot as hell.

You have to give me Abuela (chunky in her old age), Zoraida (She was hot young, she is not hot old), Rusty Alyce, Molly (shes not fat, but shes got some extra pounds, and kind of a fugly haircut,

Abuela I had forgotten, yes, she is an example of the diversity I would like to see more of.

As for Rusty Alyce and Molly - they are both attractive (well, Molly is a zombie but she could be painted to look attractive). Though your analysis of her is kinda telling of your attitudes.

Just thought I would pop in to add Sybelle to the list.

I have twice already commented on this subject. Want me to do it a third time?

Edit: wait, this one has a few extra pounds? What the hell?

http://www.wyrd-games.net/Display/molly.jpg

Edited August 12, 2011 by Math Mathonwy

[Chucklemonkey]

I have twice already commented on this subject. Want me to do it a third time?

Edit: wait, this one has a few extra pounds? What the hell?

http://www.wyrd-games.net/Display/molly.jpg

Apologies for provoking your Ire, for what it is worth I was simply seeking to add to Dolomyte's list.

I agree with your point of view on Molly, I certainly do not understand people's position that she carries any extra weight whatsoever.

To be honest this question is not limited to tabletopgaming, films and advertisements have long realised sex sells, it's a little sad that it is the same for metal figures but it doen't make it any less true.

Edited August 12, 2011 by Chucklemonkey

[Vlad the Mad]

If anybody thinks Molly is plumpy, they've been watching too many fashion shows and quasi-anorexic models. And many Gothic Lolita's in Asia might disagree about her haircut being ugly. But tastes do differ.

Also, Alice is quite attractive for being a spoiled teenager girl...

[Dolomyte]

Two things

1) I wasn't trying to list only fat models but rather models that aren't the epitome of physical perfection (like the female models tend to be).

Men arent the only ones, I pointed out models to you that dont look good, you can keep ignoring them, but your wrong for doing so. Molly the model is a bit thinner then molly the artwork, I will give you the model does not look chubby.

2) You give reasons why they aren't so. Guess what, those reasons are made up! By the designers who designed the characters. Why couldn't they make a cripple woman? Or a fat woman guard captain? Or whatever unattractive or just less-than-perfect woman minis? Why do only men have these reasons for looking not so good?

Im going to stand alone on this ledge apparently, but people dont like to paint and field ugly models. No one wants to see a rampaging herd of fat people racing across the battlefield at them, they would laugh and think its a stupid game.

Also, why do you want to see a crippled woman, thats kind of messed up. I feel bad for killing hoffman, I don't need some chick in a wheelchair in the game, could you imagine trying to muster the courage to say I want to shoot that model. Here's the conversation.

Steve "Im going to activate suzie q next, shes going to roll 6 inches foward, and take an attack action.

Jim "ugh. I want to shoot her.

Steve "you want to shoot a chick in a wheelchair"

Jim "Ugh, no, yes."

Why would you want that in game.

(note, sybelle and the belles are good models, them being undead allows them to be gross and still be an beautiful model, despite the physical unattractiveness)

Heck, even the Obedient Wretch, supposedly homeless as well, is hot as hell.

You use the term hot far too frequently for my tastes.

Abuela I had forgotten, yes, she is an example of the diversity I would like to see more of.

As for Rusty Alyce and Molly - they are both attractive (well, Molly is a zombie but she could be painted to look attractive). Though your analysis of her is kinda telling of your attitudes.

My overall point is that if your offended by cheesecake women and attractiveness, miniature gaming is probably not for you. I appreciate your right to speak up about it, but people like me will come out of the woodwork to defend the fact that we dont want to paint ugly models. I would not buy them, no matter how good they are.

Edited August 12, 2011 by Dolomyte

[Silveri]

From a viewpoint that many Wyrd's female miniatures are sculpted and/or painted to look like they have breast implants (instead of just having naturally big breasts) to discussion of sexual undertones in virtually every marketable media... Should have guessed that this would be the direction where things would be headed.

But to add an insult to injury, I would like to ask whether you feel that do female miniatures that aren't picture perfect have that much character in them? Can Perdita be even compared to Abuela? Frankly, when I think about it, Perdita and Justice (and most of the female Masters) don't differ that much as characters (although ruleswise they do) and seem a bit shallow. Then think about Hoffman, Zoraida, Seamus and the rest who are not pretty girls with big tits (the only exception that springs into mind is Colette). Sure, there are also shallow male characters (such as Marcus, given the lack of his fluff), but I feel that most of the female masters could be summed up to a single sentence.

Plus, anybody that thinks that Molly is fat should be slapped around a bit with a Trout of Common Sense.

[Dolomyte]

From a viewpoint that many Wyrd's female miniatures are sculpted and/or painted to look like they have breast implants (instead of just having naturally big breasts) to discussion of sexual undertones in virtually every marketable media... Should have guessed that this would be the direction where things would be headed.

But to add an insult to injury, I would like to ask whether you feel that do female miniatures that aren't picture perfect have that much character in them? Can Perdita be even compared to Abuela? Frankly, when I think about it, Perdita and Justice (and most of the female Masters) don't differ that much as characters (although ruleswise they do) and seem a bit shallow. Then think about Hoffman, Zoraida, Seamus and the rest who are not pretty girls with big tits (the only exception that springs into mind is Colette). Sure, there are also shallow male characters (such as Marcus, given the lack of his fluff), but I feel that most of the female masters could be summed up to a single sentence.

Plus, anybody that thinks that Molly is fat should be slapped around a bit with a Trout of Common Sense.

I think there a huge diversity between the fluff of those models. Add rasputina, lilith, pandora, and the victorias to the list.