Pere Ravage - a bit too good?

[Math Mathonwy]

Isn't he a bit too good? I've now played my Lacroix twice, and both times Pere has won me the game, basically. The sling shot from Ooh, a Girl makes his threat range completely ludicrous and the six inch(!!) pulse that does that five points unless resisted is absolutely huge. Getting lucky on the casting flip or cheating a high card there is extremely powerful as you can, with a single high card, force your opponent to flip consistently lucky or cheat away his hand. Or die a lot.

And after all this, he just sits there and if someone kills him, he explodes more. Or Rami can shoot him in the back making him explode if the opponent could turn him into a danger for the gremlins.

First game I exploded three Silurids and something else, second game the boom took out two sets of mini lynxes (blacking out on their name right now), a Jackalope and did massive damage to Marcus with only a lucky flip saving the Rattler.

I do realize that there are ways to deal with him and that spreading out helps a bit, but him being so crazy fast and the pulse being so huge makes him a bit too good for his cost, I feel. If Oopsie was a (2) action or if the pulse was "only" four inches or did only three or four damage, I would feel quite a bit better about using him. I do not wish to see all of those suggestions implemented, but one or two.

There are other power minis in the force like Rami, but only Pere tends to kill triple his SS cost in a single activation.

Am I alone thinking this?

[hippieshopper]

It's not necessarily about spreading out.

You just have to take him and Ophelia out first.

Pere and his human counterpart, Papa Loco are very...shock and awe, much like the dreamer and his crew.

What I mean is that the slingshot and explode seem to work well the first few times but your opponent will normally wise up to this when he sees him on the table.

Soon after they will understand that a lot of his potential comes from his pulses and they will hopefully learn to isolate him and take him out with something more expendable.

As a Resser, and theorycrafting, so take that into account...

I would use Rotten Belles and Crooked Men...my crooked men are very resistant to blasts and your ranged attacks. If you kill them, they are slow to die so I am likely to use a shafted counter to paralyze him in conjunction with the belles lure. With a Ca of 8, you are most likely going to lose control of him quickly.

I am not trying to imply anything other than the balance to the game.

I have played against the guild back before the game went all screwy and I don't play anymore, but the principle is much the same.

[Math Mathonwy]

Aye, Belles and Crooked Men are pretty good against him. The problem with them is that Pere's effective range is 8" from Ooh, a Girl, then 10" from two walks and then 6" from the pulse. OK, the pulse range isn't quite the same as the other 18" since it's important to go off in a position covering a maximum amount of enemies, so we should probably add only three or four inches from it. All told, his threat range is something like 21-22+"

This in turn means that hiding him behind terrain is usually pretty doable which is certainly something that I would do against Belles. And companion means that the other Lacroix can pave the way for his slingshot.

All that said, I do agree that he is dealable. I just feel that currently he dominates the game too much while he's on the table and some toning down would make for a better experience while still retaining his fun flavour and worth.

[edonil]

I was thinking something similar last Saturday while playing against Papa Loco. Honestly, I don't think the pulse from them is the problem, but the fact that they can do this action twice before killing themselves is a bit much.

[Sholto]

If you think he's bad wait till someone brings Pigapults and a plentiful supply of explody pigs

Pere can be devastating (I play Gremlins and Kin, and the 2nd last time I played I all but took out Leveticus' entire crew with him), but with the other crews I play I think I could find a counter to him with each. Like with any other Malifaux model, experience exposes their vulnerabilities.

(In the last game I played, which was right after the 2nd last one, Leveticus took Pere out before I could activate him. Lesson learned!)

[Rathnard]

Obey. :smugpuppet1

[Math Mathonwy]

Obey. :smugpuppet1

Yeah, singular solutions exist, I think everyone agrees there. Note though that Obey's range is only 12" and that one can hide Pere, so it's not an "I win" button that people often lead you to believe. And since Obey can't lead to suicide, once the Oopsie has gone off, Pere can't be obeyed to perform it against the Gremlins. But yeah, at the end of the day, Obey is nasty against him.

Again, I'm not saying that counters do not exist, I'm saying that his destructive potential is a bit much making the whole game revolve around him. And, furthermore, that most of those counters are unreliable due to the huge range of the Pere slingshot.

Simply making Oopsie a (2) action would solve my problems with him.

[Sholto]

There are other models a whole game will revolve around if they pop up in a crew. Jack Daw is a classic example. That is part of the fun of Malifaux, for me. These models don't unbalance the game, but they do change it. Just bringing them means you get to dictate the game (to an extent) but that is where Schemes and Strategies come into it.

At worst, the La Croix player will try and slingshot Pere at you, Companion'd with Ophelia and Rami. As an attack it is capable of wrecking any crew, but if you know it's coming, you can mitigate the damage considerably. Pere can win a game by himself (making his SS cost appear to be far too low), but only if you let him do it to you. Otherwise, he will spend the whole game looking for an opportunity to blow up more SS of your guys than he is worth and, if you can stall him by ensuring no such situation exists, you can either kill him when he makes a mistake or force him to waste his blast on something that isn't worth it.

[Math Mathonwy]

There are other models a whole game will revolve around if they pop up in a crew. Jack Daw is a classic example. That is part of the fun of Malifaux, for me. These models don't unbalance the game, but they do change it. Just bringing them means you get to dictate the game (to an extent) but that is where Schemes and Strategies come into it.

Aye, but Jack Daw is quite a few SS more than Pere.

At worst, the La Croix player will try and slingshot Pere at you, Companion'd with Ophelia and Rami. As an attack it is capable of wrecking any crew, but if you know it's coming, you can mitigate the damage considerably. Pere can win a game by himself (making his SS cost appear to be far too low), but only if you let him do it to you. Otherwise, he will spend the whole game looking for an opportunity to blow up more SS of your guys than he is worth and, if you can stall him by ensuring no such situation exists, you can either kill him when he makes a mistake or force him to waste his blast on something that isn't worth it.

But that dynamic would still be there were Oopsie a (2) action. I'm not arguing for a complete cuddle (or, God forbid, a ban) here, just a slight mitigation to keep his range a bit in check.

Or does everyone really think that that the 22" threat range forming a gigantic 12" diameter circle is absolutely perfect and tampering with it in any way would wreck the model? Because if so, then fair enough, I suppose.

Would you take Pere if he was 7SS? I know I certainly would. And that tells me that there is probably something amiss with his current design.

[Dumb Luck]

I've had games were Pere has done nothing at all. Does he often get back more than he himself costs? Sure. But could he also potentally nuke your whole Gremlin? Yes also.

What makes him as good as he is combining him with Ophelia. Biggest tip to avoid Pere being Obeyed/killed before he does anything is simply being careful with him.

Would I take Pere at 7SS? Maybe but PaPa is already currently at 7SS and Pere is not as good as him.

[Sholto]

Or does everyone really think that that the 22" threat range forming a gigantic 12" diameter circle is absolutely perfect and tampering with it in any way would wreck the model? Because if so, then fair enough, I suppose.

Would you take Pere if he was 7SS? I know I certainly would. And that tells me that there is probably something amiss with his current design.

I don't think this is how Wyrd evaluate their models. Would tampering with the ranges etc wreck him? No, and I would happily take him if Wyrd made the change you suggest, but that is not the question. The question Wyrd would (I think) ask before doing that is whether or not it was essential to make the change you propose. I don't think you've made the case that it is, but that doesn't mean you are wrong to think a change would improve him. It is just that mere improvement is not sufficient cause for Wyrd to wield the cuddle bat.

To take your other point, just because you would take a particular model if it was 1SS more expensive does not mean it should be 1SS more expensive. The whole cost/ SS business is not an exact science. If you want what that model will do for your crew you will be inclined to pay an additional cost if you have to, and that applies to all sorts of other models in the game. There are games I would gladly pay more for Pere in, and games where I wouldn't touch him if he was 1/2 the cost (vs Friekorps, for example). IMHO the SS cost of Pere is reasonably balanced for what he does in comparison to other similar models. YMMV

Edited July 11, 2011 by Sholto

[magicpockets]

Would you take Pere if he was 7SS?

Would I take Pere at 7SS?

I run him with Zoraida frequently and it costs me a SS extra - well worth it

[Math Mathonwy]

I don't think this is how Wyrd evaluate their models. Would tampering with the ranges etc wreck him? No, and I would happily take him if Wyrd made the change you suggest, but that is not the question. The question Wyrd would (I think) ask before doing that is whether or not it was essential to make the change you propose. I don't think you've made the case that it is, but that doesn't mean you are wrong to think a change would improve him. It is just that mere improvement is not sufficient cause for Wyrd to wield the cuddle bat.

I do somewhat agree. Wyrd did do some non-essential changes for v2 and they've been doing all sorts of tweaking for the releases of Rising Powers.

I really liked Asmodee's approach with Helldorado where they released a new set of stat cards where they had cuddled the slightly too good dudes and boosted the slightly not good enough dudes.

I honestly think that Pere's threat range is a bit too good now leading to somewhat non-satisying games as really, avoiding him when schemes and strategies basically force you to come forward (otherwise would be a pretty boring game) can be pretty impossible and dealing with him when he is so easy to hide due to the range of the slingshot is extremely non-trivial.

To take your other point, just because you would take a particular model if it was 1SS more expensive does not mean it should be 1SS more expensive. The whole cost/ SS business is not an exact science. If you want what that model will do for your crew you will be inclined to pay an additional cost if you have to, and that applies to all sorts of other models in the game. There are games I would gladly pay more for Pere in, and games where I wouldn't touch him if he was 1/2 the cost (vs Friekorps, for example). IMHO the SS cost of Pere is reasonably balanced for what he does in comparison to other similar models. YMMV

Aye, 1SS is too little to be worried about. But in my last two games Pere could've been 9SS and he still would've been a real bargain.

But behind all of this debating, let me assure you that I still do acknowledge that my experiences with Pere are really limited and if people really don't think that his threat range is over the top, I'm willing to believe it so. So thank you for the input - I really appreciate it!

[CannonFodder]

Jack Daw is more expensive because he is a merc and any faction can take him. Plus he is MUCH better (another discussion).

As for Pere, he is restricted to half the outcast masters, and zorida. Even then only really excels with Ophelia. So they made him a little more Cost effective. Also in Gremlin force if he is killed can do nasty damage to you own force. Papa loco on the other have is usable in any guild force, and more effective. If he get accidentally killed will hurt the guild crew, but not completely decimate it.

Yes he is cost effective, but the restrictions that allow him to join make up for it.

As much as I love the convicted gun-slinger, he is the one model I think is completely under valued and has minimal restrictions.

[Silveri]

To emphasise a point, I was on the receiving end BOTH times when MM deployed Pere. I currently play Marcus and I had prepared for Pere a bit, but as I would like to play with fluff-consistent crew, I didn't want to take other non-beastly options into account (which in retrospect would have been the wise thing to do).

Still, Marcus crews tend to rely on hitting fast and hard. I thought I was holding back when my models were about 13" from the table edge, but that apparently wasn't enough. They were also in hard cover if they had been shot at, but where Pere was standing at the point of the explosion, it didn't provide hard cover. Also, as Oopsie isn't an explosion as such, I didn't get to use my Hoarcats' Evasive 3, which would have helped a lot with my group's survival.

I had prepared for "surgical strikes" with a Razorspine and 2 Silurids, but as Pere was accompanied with Ophelia, 2 slop haulers and a couple of other gremlins, I considered it a waste to throw either option directly at Pere, as both cost considerably more and would certainly die very quickly with probably only causing 2-4 Wd to Pere - certainly not enough to take him out.

So, I have a counter-question: What is the best way to take Ophelia-based Pere out with a Marcus crew? With a raptor make him a beast and then with Marcus take control? But, Alpha is a (2) action and has pnly a 8" range, and would require at least a 8 of Masks... I'm not certain it's really worth the risk.

Or with a rattler manage to charge with (1) Serpent-strike, actually cause damage and then (1) Constrict Pere to make him have Slow. Of course, that would probably mean a dead snake quickly and an unfair deal to me in that sense.

Hmm... or, with a Sabretooth I have a 16" threat range (leap+walk+devour, and if that fails, I can still try to strike him twice, which possibly could be enough), but that would also mean one dead kitty very quickly before she can do anything else. 8 vs 5 SS, yet another unfair tradeoff.

Suggestions?

[Sholto]

Marcus is one crew I have never played or played against. Would a Shikome be much use? Declare Pere to be your Prey and then you can use Stalk Prey on him. The two will advance to meet each other and the Shikome's Terrifying might prove too much for him. Even then, there is no way Pere could get past the Shikome given Wicked and the ability to target Pere's pathetic Wp with its Talons.

A few Tunnelling Molemen would be a frustrating target for Pere

Edited July 11, 2011 by Sholto

[Math Mathonwy]

Marcus is one crew I have never played or played against. Would a Shikome be much use? Declare Pere to be your Prey and then you can use Stalk Prey on him. The two will advance to meet each other and the Shikome's Terrifying might prove too much for him. Even then, there is no way Pere could get past the Shikome given Wicked and the ability to target Pere's pathetic Wp with its Talons.

I would try to kill the Shikome with Ophelia, Rami and Francois first and when the coast is clear, then launch Pere. As in this game there was the Rattler with terror who could've been blocking Pere, but then I'm confident that Ophelia and Francois would've taken care of it. Companion is such a nasty ability...

[Sholto]

The appeal of the Shikome there is that you can keep it out of sight of the gunline. Because it gets to walk whenever Pere does (but does not have to Walk towards him) you might be able to keep it out of sight. When Pere starts his slingshot the Shikome can break cover and move in on him (easily done, being a Spirit), stopping him from getting any further with its melee reach and Wicked. Best I could come up with! But I like the Molemen one better

[Silveri]

Molemen, with their Wk 3 are just simply too slow and Pere could run around them in circles. Also, Shikome costs 8 ss and most likely would end up dead before accomplishing much else. Now, is there a 5-6 ss solution or a 7-8 ss solution that would still be its points worth after Pere has been taken care of?

[CannonFodder]

Freikorps trapper is the easiest way to deal with him. Even if you don't kill him you stop any chance of him going off twice, and cause your opponent to rethink his troop placement out of fear of collateral damage.

[Dumb Luck]

I run him with Zoraida frequently and it costs me a SS extra - well worth it

Making him six which is still a bargain. Rather than 7SS which is a tad pricey.

[ispep]

He seems cool, and has potential, but he never gets close enough to do anything before the opponent takes him out. I think he's lived passed turn 2 once for me.

[david_s]

the first time i used him i totally underestimated how big the pulse was. it was a noob mistake but HOLY SHIT it was devastating. we were playing a two on two game and i managed to take out something like five of my teams models and three of the opponents. it was sick! i was "lucky" and red jokered the damage flip but still it was crazy

[Cornelious1424]

I thought Zoraida could hire Wp 4 models from any faction at no additional cost?

IMOH, Pere is only awesomely good when taken in a crew with Ophelia. His threat range due to "Oooh a Girl", 10" double walk and reckless for "Oopsie!" is really good. However, players who have faced this trick before will go to great lengths to make sure it isn't as nearly effective the next time. If you see Pere on the other side of the table and decide to bunch up, well I have no sympathy for you. I will (and so will any good gremlin player) send Pere in there to take out half of your crew! I've had many games where Pere is only effective through his presence on the table, but never takes out a single model. Yes, he is really good but he is a liability for the player who takes him too!

[Dumb Luck]

He seems cool, and has potential, but he never gets close enough to do anything before the opponent takes him out. I think he's lived passed turn 2 once for me.

It's all to do with patience and keeping him safe. With Ophelia, you can afford to keep him tucked right at the back of a gunline due to her push zero action.