Alp Bombs - How?

[Ratty]

The problem is you don't know your facing an alp bomb until you face an alp bomb, and this it the reason it's so evil. You can't design a crew to beat it unless you know your facing one.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Ratty is right. You can't just build a crew to counter the Alp bomb unless your opponent tells you he is going to be playing the Alp bomb, just like you can't place terrain to totally benefit you after you chosen a side.

And even if you play to counter the Alp Bomb your opponent might decide not to drop it and play his game holding it as a threat which will give him massive table control because he will control more than half the table with the threat alone.

A smart player is not gong to pop it if he knows you are ready to counter it with a baited model. Also less experienced players will most likely not be able to pull off the Alp Bomb due to its need for exact need for model activation and first turn setup. Unfortunately it almost doesn't matter what you do, the mistake is all in the Dreamer's court.

Edited March 18, 2011 by Murphy'sLawyer

[Genetic]

Ratty is right. You can't just build a crew to counter the Alp bomb unless your opponent tells you he is going to be playing the Alp bomb, just like you can't place terrain to totally benefit you after you chosen a side.

And even if you play to counter the Alp Bomb your opponent might decide not to drop it and play his game holding it as a threat which will give him massive table control because he will control more than half the table with the threat alone.

A smart player is not gong to pop it if he knows you are ready to counter it with a baited model. Also less experienced players will most likely not be able to pull off the Alp Bomb due to its need for exact need for model activation and first turn setup. Unfortunately it almost doesn't matter what you do, the mistake is all in the Dreamer's court.

Lol I've played a game where i had 8 alps+ and an insidious madness and after reading them to drop,, I never did.... i played the hole game with LCB+ the dreamer and 3 daydreams.. and still won, it was so funny..

My opponent was so scared of the drop he forgot all about his objectives.

[Genetic]

Ohh and Murphy,,, your to damn smart....stop that... Im going to have to play you with a very special crew if you keep giving out trade secrets

[Murphy'sLawyer]

What do you mean "very special crew"? I was a helpless babe against the Alp Bomb, you can't have worse than that.

Of course I haven't seen what Hamlin can do yet.

[Genetic]

i can to have a worst crew than that :firedevil

[PicklesGrr]

Wow that was hard to parse.

Worse in what sense - badly conceived/designed or unfun to play against or merely powerful?

[Adran]

I still think most crews can counter the alp bomb.

And if you can counter it, and they never drop it, you have plenty of activations over your opponent to achieve objectives.

Its not easy, but people will learn ways around it. And you will at least know the crew you are facing before schemes are chosen and deployment.

At least 4 different masters can kill models in an opponents deployment zone on turn one, so can defuse the bomb that way if need be.

Phil

[Murphy'sLawyer]

i can to have a worst crew than that :firedevil

you are an evil man. :sad2:

[Wodschow]

At least 4 different masters can kill models in an opponents deployment zone on turn one, so can defuse the bomb that way if need be.

How exactly do you do this? An Alp bomb will most likely out-activate you, and you can't target the Dreamer when he's close to the Nightmares..

So this leaves you with killing all the Alps to 'defuse' it.. I doubt that's doable..

Sure, there are ways around the Alp bombs, but sending your crew forward in pieces to be minced isn't really a way I'd recommend..

As others have said the true strength is that you never know when it's coming - Luckily however blasts and pulses tend to be good against most of the Neverborn masters aswell (bypasses Df8, Expose Fears and Proper Manners).

[Adran]

I am largely working on the premise that most of the alp bomb points are in Alps. And when I look in theory there is a critical mass of alps needed to make the bomb a lock down. (Below this number models happily survive the initial damage and kill enough alps to make it no longer a problem) They won't be able to kill the dreamer in the midst of those alps (Although I have managed it in one go when the dreamer only deployed with a daydream. It was lucky cards and soulstone but still it was possible).

A Corephyee duet can kill one alp and have reactivate on it in the first activation whilst being in the midst of all the alps. Its vulnerable to a turn or retaliation, but even if they call in chompy, its still got a reasonable chance of living.

Lucius can put Ryle into a position he'll be able to automatic fire in activation two (reasonable chance of 3 to 4 dead alps). Again, LCB can come and face him, but then either Chompy bits or the dreamer are out on their own ready to be shot up by the rest of the guild.

Papa Loco can be obeyed into the middle of the bomb, and wipe it out

Lilieth can get an unactivated mature into the midst with transposition.

Sure, you are likely to lose something, but if the alp bomb falls below critical mass it can't stop the rest of your crew.

Personally what I would do is set my troops up in two blocks to keep them safe from LCB, far enough apart to allow alps to only really hit one group, but close enough that the unbombed group can pick off alps.

[Odin1981]

You do realize there is only one crew that can hit something in the opponents edge of the board turn one and it is only on one type of deployment correct? What can any other crew do to disrupt it on turn one?

[Dark Alleycat]

For the most part,when facing the Dreamer and his Alp Bomb,you have to be very very aware of any mistakes your opponent makes and be ready to make him suffer for it.

The one trick I have determined might help,is if your terrain is set up with lots of narrow ledges,you can abuse the height differences to help ensure he cant place them as easily as he would like.

[Adran]

You do realize there is only one crew that can hit something in the opponents edge of the board turn one and it is only on one type of deployment correct? What can any other crew do to disrupt it on turn one?

No I didn't realise that.

The three points futherest from deployment zone are 30, 34 and 38 inches.

Prehaps you didn't realise the following are possible on Turn one.

Ryle can shoot something 38 inches from him,

a Corephyee duet can move 51 inches (including the duet forming).

A Mature nephlim can charge something 34 inches away,

A warpig can swine dash potentially 70 inches away (this one is the hardest to pull off).

They may not be good ideas, but they are possible.

[tadaka]

You do realize there is only one crew that can hit something in the opponents edge of the board turn one and it is only on one type of deployment correct? What can any other crew do to disrupt it on turn one?

Sorry this is not even close to right. I have had chomp eat levi and his waif turn one on more then one game before. Infact he can eat Levi and waif before I ever activate a model if I lose first activation.

[tadaka]

Sure, you are likely to lose something, but if the alp bomb falls below critical mass it can't stop the rest of your crew.

QUOTE]

This is true but even 3 or 4 alps can have nasty effects on a crew Just because they are not an auto kill does not make them effective.

[Alondir]

theres always something that every faction can take that would screw over a dreamer player, think of it this way; alps don't work on masters (unless ur really unlucky) and there about 12-15 points of his crew.

think what you could take for 15 points that would screw alps,

(In b4 u say my faction doesn't have anything that can)

For ressers;

punk zombies (slow to die with an AoE),

Crooked men

Shikome (not sure if she would take the damage but she is unaffected by the slows)

Gaki would do a lot of damage b4 they die,

Guild

papa loco (going boom),

witchling stalkers (going boom, and been solid on close combat),

executioner, does it need saying

Sonnia (inferno)

Arca

Electrical creations,

gamin

Arachnids

Lol duet, Crescendo is a spell so just run in, or if they drop on u, ur slow, but deal 2 aoe's and thats dead alps

Neverborn

Lilith (whirling death to all within 2 inch, if ur careful u wont even suffer exhaust wounds)

Outcasts

Misaki her threat range or even just the 1 attack with thunder would cripple/kill all the alps

Freikorps specialist,

an im sure theres moar, i can understand why people thought the alp bomb was brutal when its 1st used, because ur not prepaired for it, but once you now what ur up against, u remeber there basically def 4 with 3 wounds.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

What do you mean Alps don't work on masters? Have you ever faced an Alp bomb?

Masters still have to make a terror check at -fate and even if you use a soulstones it still can fail. Then you activate and are slow. Oh yeah!

Trust me it still hurts masters pretty bad.

All I can say, and I do mean this, if you think countering the Alp bomb is easy you haven't faced it at it's fullest potential yet. A good player is not going to drop it for a cheap bait and will just pick it off with something else then retreat back waiting for you to get more jittery.

It can be countered, but like I said it depends a lot on the Dreamer player making a mistake. A good Dreamer player will make you wish you never brought your models out.

I have played against just about every master and some strong lists and tend to do really well.(and I mean doing well in league play with 16 competitors.) So I have seen a number of different play styles. But I have never faced anything like the Alp bomb before and it makes every other list I played against look like B lists.

Edited March 25, 2011 by Murphy'sLawyer

[Alondir]

I have, and iv used it a few times, i was listing the things that make me weary when im playing the dreamer,

But its not meant to be easy to pick apart, the group i play in have decided yes he is a very hard master to beat when played ''well'' but all masters when played well aren't easy to beat.

If u take fast things that can kill off daydreams when they spawn it reduces the dreamers options, when he loses his movement options, problem solved.

and if ur going to say ''i cant get to the daydreams'' well then there nowhere that's going to bug you atm

and when i said that masters are less effected because chances are the ss will let them pass, if they do then pritty muc any master can take down the week models,

and unless things have changed in the rules manual then the dreamers shadowy form can be ignored my careful placement on your part

[Murphy'sLawyer]

I agree killing the day dreams is important and I focused on going after them but my models were immediately killed by LCB when he spawned where the Alp was and then he created another DD buried LCB and ran the dreamer back to his safe distance.

Rinse repeat.

The DD only cost 2 ss so I was losing out on ss on the exchange and LCB still had his threat intact.

[Alondir]

what crew do u play?

[Dark Alleycat]

Im playing the same dreamer player Murphyslawyer is,and I have to echo his concerns. Genetic is quite good at setting us up the bomb and I would love ideas and recommendations for dealing with him.

I play Freikorps,and Im going to be playing Sonnia as well.

Edited March 25, 2011 by Dark Alleycat

[Alondir]

Id take at least 1 librarian in ur list: removing the suits from daydreams stats is going to be worth it, having to use his very valuable cards, + he does blast damage

take a specialist for his blast damage and he blows up when he dies which is enough to kill Alps.

ur aim should be to kill daydreams even if u only kill 1 because it will stop the dreamer from doing what he wants.

besides von giving everyone slow to die is like the bain of the dreamers glass cannon crew.

a trapper may be handy to try and snipe off daydreams then repositioning back to safety

or just put him in a very good shooty spot because of his range and damage the dreamer player cant afford to leave home alone

Now as well when u got models like specialist that will tempt out LCB cos me wont wanna use his alps on you, things with slow to die really hurt him, he a bit ollldd squishy.

Make sure u rember when the dreamer and his alp are up he can make em all terror, so keep hardass up

If the dreamer ends up at the back of the combat remember that u can jump over everything and with ur 1inch range weapon its easy to egnore the other daydreams and get a kill

if you can kill the daydreams off and pin dwn the dreamer it becomes a slogging match, this is very good as the dreamer struggles with them,

oh and hit LCB at ever chance hes so squishy

[Murphy'sLawyer]

My favorite crew is Lilith's and she does not do well against the Dreamer. He is too slippery. I do play all the Neverborn Masters along with Ophelia and Kin. I have been running scenarios through my mind on how to lock down and kill the Dreamer or Day Dreams to stop his movement nightmare. But I keep coming to the conclusion it is going to take the Dreamer player to make the mistake and put his models in my threat range after he activates that model.

But like I said, a good player will not do that and just leave the Alps unburied by a Day Dream in his deployment and out activate you by having them all defensive stance and aura while you activate all your models leaving him to strike out with his Day dreams and LCB after all your models have activated. Or if you are clumped up he then sets up to drop the bomb top of the next turn activating LCB first to kill an terrifying models first then POP!

Again if you hold a model with an AOE attack in ready he will hold off unless the exchange works in his favor and will instead continue to strike out with the Day Dreams dropping LCB like a &@$!#% then buries him and retreats the dreamer back again.

Genetic has got this down to a science and thankfully only pulls it out when someone asks to play it. Even then with others knowing what they are facing no one has beat it to my knowledge.

But if you have a tactic for getting the Dreamer that does not require the Dreamer player going after some bait, he is too smart for that, then I am all ears.

[karn987]

My favorite crew is Lilith's and she does not do well against the Dreamer. He is too slippery. I do play all the Neverborn Masters along with Ophelia and Kin. I have been running scenarios through my mind on how to lock down and kill the Dreamer or Day Dreams to stop his movement nightmare. But I keep coming to the conclusion it is going to take the Dreamer player to make the mistake and put his models in my threat range after he activates that model.

But like I said, a good player will not do that and just leave the Alps unburied by a Day Dream in his deployment and out activate you by having them all defensive stance and aura while you activate all your models leaving him to strike out with his Day dreams and LCB after all your models have activated. Or if you are clumped up he then sets up to drop the bomb top of the next turn activating LCB first to kill an terrifying models first then POP!

Again if you hold a model with an AOE attack in ready he will hold off unless the exchange works in his favor and will instead continue to strike out with the Day Dreams dropping LCB like a &@$!#% then buries him and retreats the dreamer back again.

Genetic has got this down to a science and thankfully only pulls it out when someone asks to play it. Even then with others knowing what they are facing no one has beat it to my knowledge.

But if you have a tactic for getting the Dreamer that does not require the Dreamer player going after some bait, he is too smart for that, then I am all ears.

Start a separate thread for this man =). You will get a lot more ideas from people if you make a thread dedicated to this. We don't want to derail this thread any more then it is.

List what crews you have and we can see what happens I'll make sure to drop my advice on it at least if you do.