New Errata

[JustAnotherDummy]

Keep in mind that games with ever-expanding rule sets (I count every character card as its own rule set for this explanation) requires additional time vetting to verify that no unforeseen loopholes exist should a global rules change come into effect. The first errata was pretty straightforward given the lower number of rule sets in print at the time the rules were created. When the second wave of rule sets came into play and unforeseen inconsistencies arose, they had to not only adjust for that wave of rule sets, but compare to (a) the first wave of rule sets and ( the next wave of rule sets currently in development before giving it the thumbs-up.

I particularly appreciate the delay to make sure the errata come out clean and appropriate. Especially when the developers have such a regular presence on the forums with their customers and have a steady finger on the pulse of the community.

[nerdelemental]

It's understood.

It's heard, too.

It's being hurried with all the haste it will be allowed. "Big new thing" will be welcomed by most, as Nathan predicts.

Closing every loophole: you have to believe that some arguments get downright heated in the backroom. We try so hard but something always gets by. The real problem is also part of what we love so much: intricate single models: they do so many things with so many interactions that it's hard to put the puzzle together in every configuration. Then we see something and have to figure it out, usually minutes after an errata drops.

hell, we've had whole debates about whether something should be erratad without ever discussing what the errata might be!

[XCoconutMonkey6X]

The thing is, there are already V2 cards in print and being sold but we, the consumer, have no idea which figures have V2 cards until we're surprised when someone just happens across it.

Like mentioned before, if you want to compete with the other big companies in GW and PP, you can't do things half cocked.

[nerdelemental]

Well, Nathan told me I'm not allowed to say I'm doing anything "full cocked" anymore....

:dontknow:

[Joza]

[all] Well, I gues it's less 'fans being whiney', and maybe more of 'not enough comunication from Wyrd to fans'. I have repetetive experience, that even saying something like: "Hey guys, we're still working on the errata, you have not been forgotten.", every other day. Even without any specific details, it is really helpful, because even though I "know" Wyrd is working on that, it's good to be reassured.

I know, that keeping fans 'tense' is one of bussiness strategies, but I personaly belive, that keeping them informed (even briefly) is much better - take the recent Rackham bankrupt, and how they commented on that - just a brief 'Thank you guys, we really are f**ked up, as you probably know from the previously negated un-official information."

Please do not take this as bragging - I'm merely trying to present the view from the other side, and my opinion.

I love Wyrd, I love Malifaux, and I belive that making the overall experience _the best_ is the common goal of all the people in this great community.

[Shinigami]

i smell trollin

[ispep]

I really don't see what the issue is. Sure there are some minor things here or there, but there is nothing that actually makes the game impossible to play.

Its not like a video game where a patch comes out and suddenly you can't log into the game. It isn't like a video game where they don't give you patch notes or there are significant changes that aren't in the patch notes that fundamentally change the way the game is played.

Just play with what you have. When there is something that makes the game actually unplayable, then start pissing and moaning.

[Lord Shaper]

As V2 cards were mentioned before, I'm wondering if sometime down the track you'd be able to buy card sets or individual ones?

[Zethal]

hell, we've had whole debates about whether something should be erratad without ever discussing what the errata might be!

Well, lots of problems present themselves from this statement, but I'll just harp on this one. You are discussing game balance things as well, and you should be. But the largest problem it would seem many of us are encountering right now is a clarity issue not a balance one.

There is probably a discussion on Double Take's power as worded and while it would be nice for you guys to look at that, more importantly you need to focus on parts of the game that are simply non-functioning. You need to organize all the threads dealing with all of the problems in book 2 and make them easy to access. This includes base sizes, triggers wrongly relating to weapons, wrong traits (like unique) and various other significant problems with the actual rules, editing and game pieces.

Its not like a video game where a patch comes out and suddenly you can't log into the game. It isn't like a video game where they don't give you patch notes or there are significant changes that aren't in the patch notes that fundamentally change the way the game is played.

If a video game was as buggy as this one, it wouldn't function as designed in significant areas. And good video game companies do give patch notes on changes. In both instances working on a video game is significantly easier for the designer. First because if a bug is so significant that it prevents things from working as designed or crashes the game its much easier to find. Second video games have the luxury of forcing the knowledge of changes on their customers/players. While it is much more difficult educate players on changes on a table top game. And as Wyrd has it set up right now you pretty much have to spend daily time in the rules section to be playing the game correctly. Then when you are aware of the changes and your opponent is not, there is not a easy document to refer to. You have to remember a thread name or a easily searchable reference in the thread plus a computer and internet to discuss changes in the rules properly.

And finally if a video game had fairly important aspects of its gameplay that were no functional or were obviously not functioning as intended and left them unfixed for much more then a week its publishers are going to encounter a lot more grief and financial loss then Wyrd has experienced so far (at least in former case, I don't know how they are doing financially and how these problems are affecting that).

Edited November 13, 2010 by Zethal

[Csonti]

A guy passes by when we play a game of Malifaux.

Guy: Hey, what is this?

Me: It's Malifaux. The most interesting game I've ever played.

Guy: Great! The minis are fantastic, I love the card draw. I want to dig myself into it. What should I read in order to understand the rules and mechanics?

Me: Well, first read the Rule Book 1. Maybe after that you should take the official FAQ and Errata.

Guy: Ok. I guess the errata is in this second book, right?

Me: Unfortunately not. I'll give you the url for those. Just send me your e-mail.

Guy: Thanks! I'll read all of the stuff and try to decide what crew to chose.

Me: Hold on! You must also read the Extra Errata Items - that is on the Forum somewhere, I will give you that link too. Don't forget to scroll down till the end, since the Extra Errata has some Extra-Extra Errata part.

Guy: Ok, no problem. I'll handle it. So, that's it?

Me: Not exactly. Book2 has a few new rules and tweaks.

Guy: Hmmm... I guess I have to strugle that too then. And now I have it all.

Me: Almost. Book2 has some very important new rule that was reworded.

Guy: Could you...

Me: Yes, will send you the link.

Guy: Awesome. Now I can get a crew at last, right?

Me: Sure, but in case your model comes with a card that has a v2 on its corner, please don't use that card if that is not in connection with the current errata.

Guy: What?

Me: V2 cards have some new information based on the next errata. So they don't work with the current, avalaible rules quite right.

Guy: I don't get this. The new set of rules are already printed on the cards but not published on the web.

Me: Sorry, pal. This is a bit complicated issue. Wyrd promised to handle it.

Guy: When?

Me: Soon.

Guy: Soon?

Me: They said it's in the proofing phase.

Guy: When was that?

Me: Hmm... about a month or so.

Guy: Thanks. I think I will go back to my ..... game. See you later!

Very small parts of the story are the product of my imagination.

Wyrd: you ruin your own business with this mess! Yes I can live with the current set of rules and play the game, but you are losing potentional new costumers.

[Wodschow]

Soeh.. You're actively trying to discourage players from starting Malifaux?

[Tiny]

How about you guys let Wyrd do their job which they are doing. Why would you want a rushed product that they have to redo. GW's 8th edition errata's for the army books were redone 1 month later after they caused a whole heap of rules problems. So that is hardly a good example of "lightning fast errata".

You guys need to stop acting like they owe you something and let them keep doing the stand up job they have been from the start. You can still play the game perfectly fine as is, its a great game and will only get better with the errata, so pull your heads in and be thankful that wyrd takes care of the community so much (rules marshals, swift replies from sketch, ericj and nathan.) .

[oozeboss]

:congrats::congrats::congrats::congrats::congrats:

Exactly what he said!

[magicpockets]

You guys need to stop acting like they owe you something

I'm one of the first to defend Wyrd and the "delays" (search for my posts if you want to be anal about it) but lets not forget this is a commercial transaction here - if I bought a washing machine and it needed this many tweaks, changes and "swap outs" to get it to work right I'd be p***ed, and rightly so.

So yes, we need to give them room and time to fix this and put it right - and the bitching isn't helping - but lets not lose sight of the fact the responsibility here lies with Wyrd and they need to step up and put it right asap.

We've paid good money so yes Wyrd do "owe us something" - we just need to be sensible about it and give them room to put everything in order.

[Csonti]

Soeh.. You're actively trying to discourage players from starting Malifaux?

How on Earth could you reach this conclusion?

I'm actively trying to persuade people to join the fun, but I won't lie when asked.

Just for your note: I'm writing blog posts about various aspects of the game to help people get the hook of it. I've traveled to a different city just to show the game some people there. I'm just organising the 2nd Malifaux event here. So no, I'm not trying to discourage people from starting Malifaux, dear sir!

My story was about the fact that the sporadic and confusing rules and the lack of clear information from the authors do not help me in my converting crusade.

About "lightning fast responses": as far as I see, this was true a couple of months ago, but the responses from Marshals are very rare in these days. If they respond in a thread that is most probably an easy, multiple times discussed issue. Real and new questions are hardly answered nowdays. Just go to the rules section and scan through a few dozen posts. (And yes, they are still miles ahead with this than XY company.)

About "stop acting they owe you something": just read what magicpockets wrote.

I'm very sad that some people can completely misunderstand criticism that is aimed to widen the group of the Malifaux fans (and the vallet of Wyrd btw).

[gunpowder saint]

so I want to ask... is the Errata going to fix everything?

the game is a living thing, it's constantly changing. Example, last game I had the Convict Gunslinger use Rapid Fire on the model he was IN melee with and I had to stop and think about whether or not he could.

long story short, the game will never be "fixed" and the only reason I can possibly see people getting pissed off because of the LACK of Errata is

A) the V2 cards contain the Errata that doesn't exsist, Annoying, but not world ending

Hamelin the Plague, and the RoE

C) Give the Guild Hounds the Guardsman Characteristic ^__^

and.. that's about it from what I remember. Other than that, there's nothing to fix really. So honestly I don't feel an Ergancy for an Errata

[Wodschow]

How on Earth could you reach this conclusion?

I realize you were exaggerating when you wrote this, but to me it sounds like you're just going way overboard there.. I have a hard time seeing the motivation behind most of your replies actually.

The extra-errata items for instance are hardly worth mentioning when he's talking about which crew he'd like - and telling him that he shouldn't use the cards that comes with his models seems way out of place aswell.

I'm sorry if I sound rough, I don't really mean to - it just didn't seem like any sort of sales story.

You could simply tell him as it is:

- The core rules are in Book1 (get it).

- Book2 expands the encounter system (but otherwise mostly contains new models).

- There's two erratas, which truthfully might seem a bit daunting, but Wyrd are working on a new one to replace them.

- If he got any crew-specific questions he's more than welcome to ask you anything.

Presenting it like this rather than keep saying "Oh, and then you should be aware of this, ah.. I almost forgot that.. " will probably not scare off as many people.

All this said I have to agree with you to some degree, I don't see the advantage in releasing the V2 like Wyrd's doing, but I don't mind it particularly either. For me the problem has mainly been that they've held the V2-carrot in front of us for too many months now and kept saying 'very soon' - I'm tired of running now, but I certainly don't think hell's loose like some of you appear to believe.

Also I honestly think that the lower presence of the Marshals is a good sign and that it implies they're really working on the errata.

C) Give the Guild Hounds the Guardsman Characteristic ^__^

Eh.. Sorry, but I think it'd be much more reasonable to simply allow Lucius to hire Beasts aswell - the Hounds ain't Guardsmen after all.. giving them Guardsmen trait would raise their synergy alot with several units that probably wasn't the intention.. Also it'd allow Lucius' Austringers to bring Raptors..

[Lord Shaper]

Eh.. Sorry, but I think it'd be much more reasonable to simply allow Lucius to hire Beasts aswell - the Hounds ain't Guardsmen after all.. giving them Guardsmen trait would raise their synergy alot with several units that probably wasn't the intention.. Also it'd allow Lucius' Austringers to bring Raptors..

I didn't think of it like that... I really like that idea!

Would the raptor rule override the Lucius rule as well if there is an Austringer in the crew?

[hippieshopper]

I guess we'll have to wait and see.

It's the other game I like to play.

[nilus]

I guess we'll have to wait and see.

It's the other game I like to play.

"Ah, the waiting game sucks. Let's play

Hungry-Hungry-Hippos!" - Homer Simpson

[XCoconutMonkey6X]

To be honest, I am more anticipating the list of V2 cards and the altered powers/stats/abilities that the V2 changed. I mean, those are already in production so our models already have been updated but we don't know it yet. I think the communication on that part is the most important and is long overdue.

[Ratty]

If this is like GW army books they will have a stock of starter sets and clams. When a Starter Set runs out and they produce another run, and then they will produce new v2 cards for them, but that doesn't necessarily mean that all the cards have been finalised and produced. My feeling is the reason that we haven't heard much in the last month is they are making sure everything is as right as it can be so they don't have to redo this again in 3 months time, and I can cope with that.

[pancake ss]

I'm playing games with mixed errata standard cards v2 its getting all to much. And every one has a different take on whats right and wrong.

One book, one set of cards and soon please.

[LoboStele]

Well, IMO, what's "right" is the most recent version of the rules. So, that would be V2 cards, with the latest released Errata, and the latest released forum rulings. The only reason I can see people arguing otherwise is if some new rule cuddles their favorite crew, which is a dumb reason to object to it then. If the rule is going to be implemented officially soon, then you might as well get used to it now.

[XCoconutMonkey6X]

I agree with Lobo but the conflict comes when you don't know if you are playing with right cards. If they released something that let us know, then we can play accordingly.