Tactica: Kirai

[Thunder_God]

Hm. Seems to me you must keep a 4 of crow or higher in your hand for the Ikiryo second turn, or finagle the order of activation with Jack, because it's otherwise nearly impossible to both keep Kirai out of his aura of no cheating and swirl the Ikiryo into place.

Unless you come from the side, then it's not over 13" from one side of the aura to the other, and more like 8.5".

Anyway, I'm a bit worried about my ability to gauge an inch. An inch to two is rather hard to gauge, as opposed to 6" which is often easier (I'm used to measuring my CTRL and melee ranged in Warmachine/Hordes). Cause you need to keep Rasputina within Jack's range, and if you get the Ikiryo on the other side, with her melee range and 30mm being 1.07", you've got 2.07". The big issue is less that, and more making sure you don't place Jack too far forward so the Ikiryo can't cheat either.

I assume you just sacrifice Seishin and hope for getting them back? My Kirai crew is still in the mail, making its way towards me. It kinda seems like a dedicated assassination crew, or heavily reliant on the summoning to get things done, seeing as most of the crew is insignificant.

And Kirai really needs them crows or SS to get the summoning going off, Ikiryo aside, which further seems to promote this "Assassinate at all costs" mentality?

Ah, for a regular spirit you only need a regular 11 or higher, so 24% of the deck.

I think I prefer the list with a Hanged or Datsue-Ba or The Hanged, something else to begin on the board.

Last point, I see people constantly talking about Lost Soul turning something into a spirit first turn of the game. Seeing as the deck has 54 cards, 4 of which can make it happen, and assuming you use Channel (because it doesn't really need to advance), and you having an extra card in hand from Jack Daw, you've got 52% to make it happen.

If you use Absorb Spirits once, you're up to 61%, and if you use it twice, then 68%.

I guess it depends on if you sacrifice spirits for extra cards, otherwise while not a bad chance, I wouldn't want to rely on it happening first turn as the lynchpin of my strategy.

Chances over two turns are of course better, and also rely on the number of cards you throw.

[Ratty]

Hm. Seems to me you must keep a 4 of crow or higher in your hand for the Ikiryo second turn, or finagle the order of activation with Jack, because it's otherwise nearly impossible to both keep Kirai out of his aura of no cheating and swirl the Ikiryo into place.

Unless you come from the side, then it's not over 13" from one side of the aura to the other, and more like 8.5".

Indeed I came in from the side. The other trick you can use is summon Ikiryo in and then swirl Jack in from outside so your not in his no cheating zone for the summoning. You get even more control over Jack's location by pulling him forward with Ikiryo's (0) action.

Anyway, I'm a bit worried about my ability to gauge an inch. An inch to two is rather hard to gauge, as opposed to 6" which is often easier (I'm used to measuring my CTRL and melee ranged in Warmachine/Hordes). Cause you need to keep Rasputina within Jack's range, and if you get the Ikiryo on the other side, with her melee range and 30mm being 1.07", you've got 2.07". The big issue is less that, and more making sure you don't place Jack too far forward so the Ikiryo can't cheat either.

You need to be able to gauge 6" really well. I've got enough practice that I can do it by eye most of the time, however there are lots of things you can do to gauge it. You know that Jack can move 4" so if you can move Jack forward 4" it is quite easy to work out how far 6" is from the end of his move. Also you know the board is split up into 6x6 6" blocks, so you can work it out by mentally dividing the board in your mind.

I assume you just sacrifice Seishin and hope for getting them back?

I don't do an awful lot of summoning so I don't go through Seishin very fast. The one thing I do use them for is to get an extra card draw and to heal. If your throwing Ikiryo into dangerous situations where he is likely to die, you also need to do this to heal up so you can throw him in again. If your drawing 9 cards a turn your odds of getting what you need are high. Mainly your looking for a 7+ :masks and a 5+ :crows, however also remember that your not needing soulstones much, so if necessary you only need a and a . Combine that with keeping any 7+ :masks and 5+ :crows you have left over from previous turns you have very good odds of getting what you need.

My Kirai crew is still in the mail, making its way towards me. It kinda seems like a dedicated assassination crew, or heavily reliant on the summoning to get things done, seeing as most of the crew is insignificant. And Kirai really needs them crows or SS to get the summoning going off, Ikiryo aside, which further seems to promote this "Assassinate at all costs" mentality?

Ah, for a regular spirit you only need a regular 11 or higher, so 24% of the deck.

Summoning is not too hard to get off. Also if your not playing against constructs you can spirit food. firing Ikiryo forward into a weak target nets you a healing flip and a Gaki. I've had games where I have ended up with 4 Gaki without summoning a single one. I also really like attacking with Ikiryo reassorbing her and then resummoning to get twice the attacks out of her in a turn.

I think I prefer the list with a Hanged or Datsue-Ba or The Hanged, something else to begin on the board.

I have been slightly underwhelmed with Datsue-Ba in general, she just doesn't seem to do much for me. Hanged are nice, and I quite often run them, but again it's situational, if you know your playing Pandora or a Living army they are worth it. Not so sure the rest of the time.

The one thing I've really found is the more I play with her the less I summon and the less inclined I am to take anything but utility models and Seishin in my starting crew. I think Insidious Madness is going to work really well with her and it's cheap.

Most turns I am just looking for a lowish :masks and a :crows so I do even feel to card reliant. I normal prefere end up with a lot of high cards for melee duels than use them for summoning.

Things do alter down to opponent, against a horde based army I will summon much more, partly as I need numbers but also as I need to use up Seishin as they are coming in as fast as you sack them. Last game against McMourning, I ended up with 4 Onryo and 4 Gaki and I only started with 1 of the Onryo and 0 Gaki.

Last point, I see people constantly talking about Lost Soul turning something into a spirit first turn of the game. Seeing as the deck has 54 cards, 4 of which can make it happen, and assuming you use Channel (because it doesn't really need to advance), and you having an extra card in hand from Jack Daw, you've got 52% to make it happen.

If you use Absorb Spirits once, you're up to 61%, and if you use it twice, then 68%.

I guess it depends on if you sacrifice spirits for extra cards, otherwise while not a bad chance, I wouldn't want to rely on it happening first turn as the lynchpin of my strategy.

Chances over two turns are of course better, and also rely on the number of cards you throw.

To be absolutely honest I've only played one game where I have used a non spirit model. I think when the Rogue Necromancy or the Dead Rider comes out I will give it more of a go.

The One thing as a new Kirai player I would say you need to remember is though Kirai is good at summoning you don't need to. You can play her as an ultra fast objective grabber or use her to put a hugh amount of pressure on a point of the battlefield. And most importantly you don't particularly need to decide which before the battle, you can switch roles as necessary.

Edited February 4, 2011 by Ratty

[Thunder_God]

I think the Rasputina versus mobile teams will become more interesting, especially in larger games, with Snow Storm?

Two Foul Weathers, a Form Ice, and December's Command really add up. And the only one requiring a flip is December's Command, with a 3 or higher... It won't help much with "Catching" or splitting, but it'd help get the whole crew up-field. Of course, it'd make Jack probably very happy.

[Apokra]

In response to Ratty my current main opponents use Kirai and most of the time the hardest part to handle with her is the ultra fast I choose to be where I want to and do whatever I want to be it completing objectives or brutally punishing a mistake by moving a model too far from the group. It's 100% shadow games that psyches your oponnent out. The only reason I don't get whomped all the the time I think is i'm learning to allow certain losses. It can lead to more of a psychological warfare thing than anything else. Allowing an opponent to see you can choose the location and the odds of a battle alone put them in a defeatist attitude which leads to victory even against a suprior numbered foe.

[Dark Alleycat]

Act..do not react. Make your opponent play the game on your terms and you will win. Kirai has an incredible amount of mobility,and is a very hard to kill master.

[hippieshopper]

Well my bro and I were field testing taking 2 shikome...whatever means you use to get them...

and it is very brutal.

Have one give the other Hunting Partner...pretty sick...I know this is just theoryfaux but I will give it a shot sometime, I just got the rest of her crew together and I am gonna give it a go and see if it's really worth it.

[Klingenkalle]

Hello,

I've one question concerning the Seishin's "Spirit Sheath" ability. What exactly is an "attack" for this purpose? Are spells attacks, so Damage or other effects from spells can be applied to the Seishin?

Thanks for your help!

[Wodschow]

Hello,

I've one question concerning the Seishin's "Spirit Sheath" ability. What exactly is an "attack" for this purpose? Are spells attacks, so Damage or other effects from spells can be applied to the Seishin?

Thanks for your help!

Sketch quoted the attack definition as it is in the Rules Manual here:

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?p=209576#post209576

So most things you do are considered attacks

[DeleteAccount]

OK, I'm still trying to get the hang of my Kirai force, but Kirai is so full of little things that I keep finding I don't notice interactions that I should or plain forget effects. At the moment I'm only really using the pool of models that is Kirai, Onryo, Datsue Ba, seishin and a proxied Lost Love while summoning Shikome and Gaki once in a while.

My big problem right now is I have mobility in spades, but I really feel lacking in hitting power. Maybe I'm just failing in abusing the summon ikirio, reabsorb, resummon and so on. But I already feel my band lacks punching power with only 3 Onryo and Datsue Ba as models capable of actually defending themselves in my initial list, and summoning is so taxing on Kirai, tending to leave her on a very thin thread and making it hard to make another push until I have a turn or 2 to heal. Maybe I just have to absorb more spirits to compensate this, but I'm still trying to get her going.

What I've faced lately is Lady Justice and the Victorias, against lady justice I felt I could sort of control the situation, but I do pitiful damage with the hard to wound death marshals around and it takes me too long for comfort to actually take them down and LadyJustice just eats anything I throw at her at an alarming rate pretty much killing a model or 2 per turn when she is in the hole. The Victorias on the other hand tend to have Taelor and the other guy with the hammer and I just find so many magical weapons utterly distressing, also, so many models being hard to kill and some hard to wound to add to hit gives me fits in actually being able to remove people from there while taking huge amounts of damage myself.

All this comes to my fascination with Ratty's list, I mean, you say you are relying less and less on evolving spirits, yet your base list lacks any real punching power (at least the last one you posted). I guess my question is, how do you do it? I mean, killing is hard in this game and the Ikirio though very good, doesn't seem capable of pulling the weight by itself. Do you heavily use spirit food to get some reinforcements and send the Ikirio to eat weaker targets or what other modus operandi do you use?

[DeleteAccount]

Also, how do you avoid putting Kirai in the thick to get Seishin but nor leaving her be dead meat or how do you work with seishin scouts as they aren't just picked of at range or charged? I presume this is all based on cover and so on, but it all just seems so frail.

[CrouchingMoose]

I also need a lot of help with Kirai but as for how to handle the seishen as scouts, i think i've kind of figured out because it surprised a bunch of people at the last tournament I went to. The seishen have an ability (Enslaved by Kirai, i think) that at the end of any model's activation, you may move it into base contact with Kirai. This counts for all seishen. Feel like one seishen is way to deep into enemy territoy or just got lured there. Pop it back out of the way.

That being said, i agree that summoning ikiryo isnt doing much for me because when i do get it off, ikiryo rarely hits, when she does hit, its only ever been for weak unless i cheat it up.

[szetymereg]

Hi,

Could you help me in connection with Kirai's Don't Blink trigger? Does the wound that is suffered with this trigger come additionally to the summoning cost or it reduces the original "wound cost" to 1?

[K.blas]

It's in addition to.

So 4 wounds @ 6" or 5 wounds @ 12" (with trigger obviously).

[szetymereg]

Thanks a lot!

[Bozzy]

I posted this in my list tweaking but figured id get bettwr answers here.... How do each of the matchups go..right now I picture dreamer being a ...no pun intended ... Nightmare... What tactics recommended against the dreamer ..... Also lilith could be a hard matchup as well and somone id see a lot in tournies...

[szetymereg]

Today I had a match against Lilith and my match-winning player was Jack Daw. Nephilims doesn't have any magical weapons and just small amount of damaging spells(Jack has WP 7!), so they can kill Jack only with focus strikes. If used well due to it's aura Lilith also can't cheat fate and use SS.

[Bearded Dragon]

Now that the Insidious Horror is out, does anyone have some experience with it and Kirai?

Seems to me it would be excellent for Onryo with their magic ranged or melee attack (targeting willpower) to screw up the defenses of the enemy (and the Onryo wouldn't be affected by the -willpower flip since it is using either Ca or Cb).

[Buhallin]

I posted this in my list tweaking but figured id get bettwr answers here.... How do each of the matchups go..right now I picture dreamer being a ...no pun intended ... Nightmare... What tactics recommended against the dreamer ..... Also lilith could be a hard matchup as well and somone id see a lot in tournies...

Still getting the hang of Kirai, but I've faced the Dreamer a fair bit with Seamus and some spirits, so not completely theory...

I actually think Kirai will match up very well. Swapping spirits means the Alp bomb is severely limited in what it can do, and you've got the speed to snipe Daydreams at well. Denial of Sanzu can pin the Stitched in place to avoid a lot of their nastiness, and who cares if they still get to activate if they can't move?

I'm still debating which to take with Kirai because the Lost Love does help her a lot, but a Grave Spirit linking to a tough spirit is just obscene. I frequently run it with a Hanged in my Seamus list, and it reduces 6 Dg hits to a single wound. That's a great thing against any melee heavy hitter, and I've had a Hanged stare down LCB and come out of it in pretty good shape. Combine it with Kirai's Soothe Spirit, and you essentially make the model invincible.

[Sezar]

a Grave Spirit linking to a tough spirit is just obscene. I frequently run it with a Hanged in my Seamus list, and it reduces 6 Dg hits to a single wound.

How's it possible? I thought that you had to reduce Armor # before halving the Dg suffered, so a 6 Wd attack would be lowered to 2 [(6-2)/2].

Or would it be 6/2-2?

[Buhallin]

Or would it be 6/2-2?

This.

You use standard order of operations, so halve first and then subtract. The Rules Manual even uses Armored Spirits as the example for explaining this.

[Sezar]

This.

You use standard order of operations, so halve first and then subtract. The Rules Manual even uses Armored Spirits as the example for explaining this.

Wow, this is great news (as long as I'm the one using it, and not facing on the other side :tongue2:).

Thanks!!

[szetymereg]

I have a rule question in connection with Kirai, could you help me?

It sounds quite illogical, but the spirits really suffer from the effects of severe terrain? I mean does severe terrain halves the movement of spirits, although they can pass through and stop on impassable terrain? Are there any rules regarding this?

Thx in advance!

[Fetid Strumpet]

I noticed this as well. I didn't think it made much sense but I assumed it was intensional as the wording is very different in the rules manual from the first book. It also makes sense as to why the hanged have the ability Float. If spirits are immune to severe terrain it doesn't make much sense as to why you are paying points cost for the Hanged to have float.

[szetymereg]

Float-> you don't receive disengaging strikes, and moving between the elevations is easier, because you don't have to climb up and down the elevations.

I think it would be sensible if the spirits got scout ability.

I may try to ask this question on the rules topic, maybe an RM can answer this question for us.

[Peoples Champ]

I may have missed it somewhere but how does someone sacrifice Ikryo? Do you do it in Ikryos activation or does Kirai do it? Does it cost an AP?

The way I was playing it was Ikryo activates does two actions (one using melee expert) then sacrifices itself so in Kirai's activation it can get summoned again, effectively giving the Ikryo 2 activations a turn. My opponent questioned it then I couldn't find any rule etc that could justify it however I am sure I have read it somewhere.