So... 2:1 count... how do you deal

[Teal]

I'm someone who almost always is outnumbered 2:1 in my games, as I have a love of taking very expensive elite armies. To be honest, I haven't experienced much of a disadvantage from being outnumbered, as I normally am able to quickly even the numbers by setting my favorite dynamic duo of Jack Daw and Pandora on the enemies army and slaughtering a good chunk of my foe's crew. Playing an elite army does seem more difficult if you play a defensive game, but once you start making use of the offensive powers you can buy for those soulstones, the numbers seem to even rather quickly.

[Mr_Smigs]

Anyways, there's no reason a "elite army" should be inherently balanced against a "horde" army. What's the reasoning behind that? The point buy system is for flexibility in hiring and army assembly, not inherent balance between equal point armies. Warhammer 40k- You get curbstomp battles between equal-point forces constantly, even only using equal-edition manuals.

won't rant about 40k. or fantasy. but suffice to say, the whole purpose of a point-based system is to imply equality between models,

to "rate" them as it were for their presence on the field.

a 8 point model should have twice the impact on a battle as a 4 point.

many wargames fail at this because interactions between models are not taken into account or simple game mechanics are not considered.

as for "don't bring a pre-designed list" ...

huh...

so, the spirit of the game is I get to see their list before I build mine?

(And by the way, just because you insist on not using small units doesn't mean it's any less your issue. It's not our fault you have a internal set of rules seperate to and different from the game rules.)

not the issue here.

the issue is, what does the GAME MECHANIC have for balancing excessive activations on one side of the table?

that's been the point since post 1.

if, as you've put it, this game does NOT seem to use the point system as a balancing act, but more just a building guideline (which makes me wonder why it's used at all),

then why can't I bring every named character in the faction to the brawl?

and sadly,

out of all these posts, I think I've only seen one that vaguely addresses the problem of an elites melee army being set upon by the weenie horde...

and that one, sadly only works without a time limit.

[Lucidicide]

the issue is, what does the GAME MECHANIC have for balancing excessive activations on one side of the table?

There is no game mechanic, to my knowledge, that specifically addresses balancing "excessive activations." I believe the point that everyone else is making is that there doesn't need to be a game mechanic for this as the models themselves take this into account. An 8 stone model that does the same thing as two 4 stone models is on equal footing. However, since it is not just a highly in-depth game of rock scissors paper, each model has strengths and weaknesses. For example, two Witchling Stalkers are much more effective against any one model that relies on spells. However, an 8 point model that focuses on something else will have a much easier time putting down Witchling Stalkers. Malifaux goes further than that and gives subtleties to each model that pretty much gaurantees how you use the model is what brings out whether the cost of the model is worth it.

In summary:

1. There is no "GAME MECHANIC" that deals with "excessive activations" because there doesn't need to be. It may be in other systems, but other systems aren't this system. This system doesn't need it.
   
2. The balance, then, for having more activations comes from the models themselves, taken into account in the soulstone cost of the model. However, directly comparing an 8 soulstone model to four 2 soulstone models is not an accurate comparison. Therefore, an elite army can be perfectly balanced against a horde army.
   

Hope that helps.

[nerdelemental]

Well, Smigs, what you're not seeing is that no one really agrees with you that it's a legitimate problem. The answer to your latest post is that I think the points ARE the balance. Your issue with the whole problem from your very first post I would address like this: against some crews your trial Marcus/Myranda trickery might be really strong and compelling - against a horde that can overrun it, clearly not.

That's my honest assessment. When you look at "balance" you might be thinking with a mindset that comes from army level games like WM or WH rather than a skirmish game: Every army can fight every army on equal footing. In a skirmish game, or, more specifically, Malifaux, they're all equal in balance but some armies have an easier time against other armies. Your trick list simply can't withstand the Gremlin horde - at least how you were running it. Against Lady J, Executioner, and a small handful of other melee-only chubs, maybe.

It's hard to say "there is no balance with the 2-1 ratios" if you're not playtesting with various builds, various factions, various scenarios.

Simply: my thought to answer your first questions -

eft me with two questions in my head...

1. When one player has 13+ models where the average crew would have 7... what do you do?

and "shoot them dead" doesn't seem to work, since they average 4 wounds a pop and Def 6...

2. Who's idea was it for a spell that has no resist and can burn out an opponent's fate hand from 22" on a 36" table?

____________

1. Play them. Hope I built a list that's meant to handle different threats and achieve my strategy and schemes. I (no snarkiness) just don't think you did that. I think you're used to bigger games (WM/Hordes) where your trick is buried in several models among many others and you have a whole turn to yourself to set it up and make it happen. Here, you expected your trick to go unimpeded. Sorry, just my assessment following your criticisms through this thread. Frankly, your initial build seemed a bit weak and I'd wonder how it would fare against a number of my typical crews. But, as you pointed out, you feel the balance is off no matter what you're running and you don't want to focus on your trial army build. I got that. After testing against different crews including Gremlin hordes, I also do not like handing over the rest of a turn to a batch of Gremlins but have never thought my 10-12 wound monstrosities could not deal with a whole batch of stupid Gremlins. I've thought on a number of occasions that the Gremlins were a viable tournament level threat, but never imbalanced as you're asserting.

2. this I think is one of the only threats you had to deal with. the only real threat worth debating, IMO. But, again, because it's the only solid threat I think worthy of the discussion, you had a turn where the bugs burned out your hand. Got it. What about the next turn? didn't you kill them with impunity? You've got the range. They're right there. What were you doing? If they bring those skeeters in like that - kill 'em. This sounds like I'm being rough, but I'm not really. It just reminds me of what we saw almost a year ago when the game was fresh and everyone hopped around about "this is broken" and "that's not strong" and then, after a few months, everyone sort of got in the groove of how to cope. Here, the gremlins are under your skin and after more combatting them with different crews, I think it'll start to make sense about why many of the playtesters in this thread say "Not really a huge imbalance" - cause they've dealt with it and figured out how to deal with it with various crews.

Give it more time and try more traditional builds just to see how they go.

My advice. My opinions.

[icemantis99]

as for "don't bring a pre-designed list" ...

huh...

so, the spirit of the game is I get to see their list before I build mine?

More like "Huh. Looks like Som'er Jones. I might want to prepare for a horde match. Especially since he's got Recon/Claim jump".

And as has been said before here, 8 points does not auto-balance two 4 pointers. It should, in a balanced system, be worth two 4 pointers in and only in the right situation.

to put this into real-world terms, let's say a Anti-Aircraft mobile cannon is worth 2 SAM launchers. Those are balanced- they do the same function, roughly equally well (Not getting into a argumentn on real-world military tech, it's a metaphor.).

Now, let's furthermore say that a medium tank (of any design) is worth a SAM.

therefore:

1 AA Gun = 2 SAM Launchers = 2 Medium Tanks

is one AA gun balanced against 2 medium tanks?

in a straight-up fight, hell no. The AA gun doesn't stand a chance- it's meant to shoot fast-moving, lightly armored targets from a mostly-stationary position. The tanks, on the other hand, barely have to try- they're meant to take down slow-moving enemies or fortified areas.

but they are balanced in their own arena. The AA gun, in this metaphor, is twice as good at it's job, anti-aircraft tech, as a medium tank is at it's job, anti-armor tech.

to apply it to Malifaux:

Ice Golem vs. 3 Steampunk Arachnids.

Both total out at 9 points. Are they balanced? not in a straight fight, I'm fairly sure the arachnids would munch through the Golem, either as individual units or as a swarm.

But fighting lots of stuff isn't teh Golem's job. He's the tank here- meant to fend off big, heavy stuff, and be really hard to hurt with a single attack. He's anti-armor here.

Moving on, your last remark of "no one adressing the problem"...

yes we have, individually, and as a whole. I'll give you a list of the tips I know for elite vs horde, given no specifics about the elite or horde list.

1. Control the battlefield.

Fight on your terms, not on the horde's. Use terrain to your advantage, use area-denial abilities. Try to run-and-gun or force the horde to fight a few at a time. use defensive formations or a quick assault to even the playing field a bit.

2. Be Careful

If you're outnumbered, you have to make every action count. You're facing at least twice your number of activations- the horde can afford to pass, or have a useless activation. make every movement, every attack count. Also, be wary of losing a unit for no reason. Again, the horde can waste a few mooks to test your tactics or defenses- one or two little guys doesn't make much of a difference. but if you lose a unit, that's a big deal. Heal your big guys, if you can.

3. Be Focused.

Sort of a subset of Rule 2, but still. You don't have energy to burn, you need to outline a plan and go for it. Set your goal in your sights and don't let anything distract you. For example: "Kill the pigs first, then whittle away at the horde, kill Som'er if given the oppurtunity."

You get distracted, you split your focus, then you're distributing your power out, and you've already concentrated it up.

Those are just some vague rules to help. And btw, several people have already given you methods to win with a Melee-elite list, both in the general (such as the tips outlined above) and in the specific (Go for the pigs first, then worry about the gremlins).

Anyways, I doubt this will help. You're taking a very specific, very idiosyncratic list, with a set of rules and restrictions not natural to the game, and complaining that it doesn't work against the very thing it's going to be bad against. Name a game, and that same approach will bring the same result:

MTG- let's take a pauper big creature deck with no curve against a mon-blue control deck. Tell me how that goes.

40k- let's just run tons of IG, no armor, against Tyrannids. Again, good luck.

hell, Street Fighter, why not?- try any slow fighter, without using 'cheap' moves (generally regarded as throws, unblockables, or combos) against a lightweight- say, Vega, or Chun Li. You'll be lucky to hit them.

The point is, you can't expect the real world to conform to your specific code of conduct. We don't have to adjust our strategies or lists because you decided not to take any support models to round out your list, or adjust your strategies to cope with the situation at hand. Big models are big targets- you leave them out unsupported, it's going to get hurt, no matter how good it is. 40k, FOW, you can have a big, expensive point-sink and it can generally be expected to survive the fire that'll be poured at it. The bias is on the defensive end. Here, you run a point-sink by itself, it'll get murdered. the bias is on the offensive.

Again, this is just my opinion, not a attack on you.

[tenabrae]

There's also the experience factor, plenty of people in the thread have mentioned weaknesses of the gremlin swarm... even in the case of the OP vs. the horde his posted list was well capable of taking the swarm... Hammy vs. low wound, low Wp, Ht1 swarm ? Any day of the week

Balance isn't about whether you can theorycraft 2 equal armies for different factions, it's about whether 2 competent players using those armies have a relatively equal game. In Malifaux, that's complicated by the strategy/scheme system and the way you choose armies for missions.

In the tournament format I run I allow each player 3 lists for this reason, you're going to want a take and hold list, a fast objective taking list and probably something with a bit of an all-rounder aspect.... that doesn't mean the game has failed to be balanced if you use your take and hold list in an assassination mission, it means you failed to pick up the right tools from the outset.

disclaimer: new players and limited model choice will always be a factor in wargaming but I don't see they have a place in a discussion of overall balance in a game system.

[Satyrwyld]

Here's a consideration: the Ortegas practically use the OP's "weakness" as their strategy. They Companion to go as a group at the start of each round, leaving most of the enemy force free reign to run rampant afterward. The family averages about 6 stones per model, and is one of if not the smallest starter set with the fewest soulstones. And honestly? I -loathe- facing off against them, because they shoot the heck out of whatever I'm playing. Of course, they're also designed to work together toward that end, and aren't a random collection of high-priced models cobbled together into a one trick pony...

[ddot]

Maybe you should try to get in a few more games using this crew agaisnt the Gremlin horde. Different Location, Terrain, Strategies, and Schemes will all require you to play a vastly different game. On a board with a lot of severe terrain, the Gremlins lose a bit of movement, and your crew has Scout, good movement speed, and the ability to force the opposing crew (especially true against Gremlins) to go where they don't want to go. Forcing Gremlins and Pigs to walk half-speed into a wood, they'll have to walk half-speed to get out.

[Mr_Smigs]

More like "Huh. Looks like Som'er Jones. I might want to prepare for a horde match. Especially since he's got Recon/Claim jump".

? When are you told in the rule what Master you're going against?

Those are just some vague rules to help. And btw, several people have already given you methods to win with a Melee-elite list, both in the general (such as the tips outlined above) and in the specific (Go for the pigs first, then worry about the gremlins).

must've missed 'em. i'll reread the thread. but even this 1-2-3 of "be careful, focus on goals" has a problem when trying to deal with 6 turns.

Anyways, I doubt this will help. You're taking a very specific, very idiosyncratic list, with a set of rules and restrictions not natural to the game, and complaining that it doesn't work against the very thing it's going to be bad against.

spot on there. you still think I'm talking about the Marcus v Gremlins bout.

I've run this with more than one list. Tried other solutions, including ones with more range.

they all struggle (to say the least) to get only a limited horde in range for agression without exposing models to retaliation.

and with the "pigcharge of doom" generally once the pigs get into range, options vanish fast.

The point is, you can't expect the real world to conform to your specific code of conduct. We don't have to adjust our strategies or lists because you decided not to take any support models to round out your list, or adjust your strategies to cope with the situation at hand. Big models are big targets- you leave them out unsupported, it's going to get hurt, no matter how good it is. 40k, FOW, you can have a big, expensive point-sink and it can generally be expected to survive the fire that'll be poured at it. The bias is on the defensive end. Here, you run a point-sink by itself, it'll get murdered. the bias is on the offensive.

not an attack, but rather contrary to the "these arn't big models, this isn't the big wargame" others were pushing.

there was a reason I was trying to keep the models used in this out of the discussion.

there are other arrangements out there that can come to a similar 2:1 count,

gremlins just happened to be the most recent encounter, and have the ability to generate a 4 stone model every turn by trading 2 wounds... which makes them more likely to get to that balance.

as for "what about after that first mosquito"

dunno what to say. I didn't have a 22" threat range to respond with to get to the second mosquito after losing my hand...

nor to get to the third mosquito after losing my hand the next round...

but I agree... no one here seems to think this is a problem.

and we're starting to go in circles it feels...

so thank y'all and goodnight.

Edited July 31, 2010 by Mr_Smigs

[Ropetus]

I hope your opponent is not using his 3 Wd Mosquitoes to suffer 6 Wd to discard 6 cards?

Losing your entire hand to Mosquitoes should not be too common. Models cannot reduce their Wd to 0 with abilities like Gremlin's Luck so a single Mosquito will most likely only force you to discard 2 cards, because they begin the game with 3. Som'er can heal them yes but then he is not spending his Actions on summoning more Gremlins which should ease your pain with the horde. Also, generating more Mosquitoes requires a lot of Gremlins.

-Ropetus

[Ciaran]

Without digging through all of this (this has to be one of the fastest growing threads I've seen in quite some time!) I just wanted to blurb out:

I fought the gremlins with the Ortegas, and worked them. You want to talk about being outnumbered? Playing a third of the game with no cards in my hands wasn't so great either. I just made solid tactical choices that ended with S'omer going doing like the easy girl at a party, after that (with my two survivors) I had to play mop up, which wasn't fun at all. When I pulled slaughter my opponent started to giggle and taunt me. I have to admit I didn't feel great about it, it still worked out.

I've run into the same thing while fighting Ressers. I took on Seamus with Zoraida and ran into the same issue. This time I had no chance of killing the master though, and I had to play something resembling a fighting retreat (think the march to the sea from the Chosin reservoir and let that inspire you). I think in that case I killed MAYBE two models, and they came right back. In this case I was playing treasure hunt and stayed incredibly focused on that. Had the game lasted one more turn there is a very good chance he would have won, it was a tense game and easily one of the most satisfying I've played.

I think a lot of the time we beat ourselves more than our opponent does, and that sounds like what's happening with your games. So I guess to answer your original question: I deal with these odds by staying calm and making cold, rational decisions about what gives me the best chance of winning. I don't allow myself to think "I can't win" and force myself to think "How can I win?" with many thanks to yet another Marine (Robert Kiyosaki) for that.

Chin up Devil Dog and start adapting and overcoming.

[DireTrollJake]

Between sub part aim and Whoops, I tend to reduce the 2:1 ratio for my opponent lol. High defense models make the gremlins burn their hand FAST. And, if you have issues with us taking your cards, focus on things with paired weapons to increase your odds.

Marcus really is a hard Master to master. He doesn't usually do numbers, and you seem to be attempting a one trick poney in high hopes and tasteing failure early on and pointing fingers because of it. Try using Marcus as ... .... a beast master now and see if you eat them alive. Silurids will run through gremlins. Rattlers will strike first. Tigers will take out pigs with ease. Add in Molemen to really mess with them. 1 damage a turn with all that armor.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

A lot of really great points have been made in this thread but I had a thought that nobodys adressed; How can you dislike the figure/stats of all low ss figures? That's alot of figs! I could understand not liking molemen and gamin but. . .

Death Marshalls

Witchling Stalkers

Guild Guards

Steampunk Arachnids

Canine Remains

Crooked Men

Necropunks

Belles

Terror Tots

Sorrows

That's alot of models to dislike. It makes me wonder if what you don't like is not having a high enough cb to hit more often than not and enough damage to kill most models in 1-2 hits. As a general rule that mindset wins lots of small battles and loses games in Malifaux.

Here's some general and specific advice.

General.

1. In tournaments where you can't change your crew then your crew needs to be able to do anything ie win at any strategy or scheme (I've observed that tourneys are use each scheme once so in three rounds you'll use all but one scheme in book 1). Running nothing but "the elite" leaves too few figures to have them where they need to be for VP.

2. If you have fewer figures than your opponent try and make each figure worth 2 or more of theirs. The penalties for firing into mellee are pretty harsh in Malifaux. Another thing to keep in mind is a 50mm bas figure with 2" attack can mellee models up to 5 inches apart from each other.

Specific

Jackelope would have been a good addition it's got dec's ent odds of killing a gremlin and it's multiply ability makes it a steal at 1ss. Since it can be thrown away tieing up the sabertooth ceribus would have been great. It speed gives you pretty much an auto win on treasurehunt. If you had it and a rattler you could split them one going left the other right when your opponent splits his force move the cerebus to the other side of the table leaving several of your opponents figures 20" or so from any of your models. The Cerebus can charge something 20" away from where it starts

[ork56]

a 8 point model should have twice the impact on a battle as a 4 point.

In that case shouldnt all games end in a draw, as luck would even up the card draws?

Is that what you really mean/expect?

The points system works 'on balance' across all figures.

c.b.a. going any further with an explanation

[thaehl]

Moving on, your last remark of "no one adressing the problem"...

yes we have, individually, and as a whole. I'll give you a list of the tips I know for elite vs horde, given no specifics about the elite or horde list.

Icemantis I hate to point it out but I was the Gremlin player in this scenario and I gave both lists earlier in the thread. But again that may not be the question just if you want to see any specifics, they are there.

[icemantis99]

Icemantis I hate to point it out but I was the Gremlin player in this scenario and I gave both lists earlier in the thread. But again that may not be the question just if you want to see any specifics, they are there.

No no no, I was giving him a non-list-based set of tips, since he said he didn't want to change his list and that it was experimental anyways. It was "given" as in mathematical or debate term, not literally given. :-)

[thaehl]

No no no, I was giving him a non-list-based set of tips, since he said he didn't want to change his list and that it was experimental anyways. It was "given" as in mathematical or debate term, not literally given. :-)

That being the case thank you very much Icemantis, I feel the tips given were quite helpful on many levels, I am in no way speaking for Mr. Smigs, but I enjoy reading what others think and they in many ways help point out vulnerabilities in my list that many would look over thank you for the time you have put into this prosess. I do feel "A Gremlins Luck" could use a WP resist, though it is not my place to enforce such a change. Thanks all for your time I have seen that alot of players have done their best to crack open the Gremlin Problem. Thanks much - T -

[Ropetus]

Thanks all for your time I have seen that alot of players have done their best to crack open the Gremlin Problem.

This thread has been hilarious. I've never seen anyone here complaining about the Gremlins being overpowered. Most of the time we see Gremlin players being frustrated due to how tough it is to win games with them and pointing out how they've been hit with the cuddle-bat from time to time.

Nice to have some change.

-Ropetus

[Lucidicide]

This thread has been hilarious. I've never seen anyone here complaining about the Gremlins being overpowered. Most of the time we see Gremlin players being frustrated due to how tough it is to win games with them and pointing out how they've been hit with the nerf-bat from time to time.

Nice to have some change.

-Ropetus

Agreed. This is new to me. Our resident Gremlin player has never won a game by being overpowered. It is usually an uphill battle where another turn would almost always mean doom.

[TimeLapse]

Well its not just the Gremlin army but the player. I think we can agree that some of the best players in our groups can pick up any army and make it a hard list to play VS. thaehl is one of our top players, So in his hands the list becomes a bit differnt and better then in an Adv. players hands. I really think that in the right hands a swarm army in this game is a force to recon with.

That being said I dont think its impossable to beat them. The game is as much on how you use your models and your luck, as knowing your opponet and knowing what he will do before you play him.

Smigs, the best way to learn how to beat a list is to play it, swap lists with thaehl and try his list out, in just the building and playing of the list you will find the weakness and stress points of the list and will know better how to beat the list when you play it next.

Knowledge is half the battle!

-Andrew

[Shadowopal]

Now that's some good advice. I learn a lot more about my figs when I play against them and vice versa. I tend to get into a way of thinking about things and need to take a different perspective if I'm having issues with something.

[icemantis99]

Different people think of different things, as well. You come up with your own tactics or moves that might make a given list better or worse.