Pandora Dementia Shenanigans

[dreadpiratelynx]

As I was falling asleep last night while considering how best to use my Sorrow's actions to give Pandora even more movement than usual, I had an epiphany. Have all but the last Sorrow to act try (and fail) to Pacify/Incite Pandy, then cast a spell or two at her (which she also resists). The last Sorrow then uses Siphon Magic to cast Dementia on Pandy which she allows to affect her. Now every time she successfully uses Incite/Pacify she gets to push 8", and every time does anything else she gets to push 4". This is of course dependent on her passing the Wp-->13 duel to keep from wasting her action, but with only 21 cards in the deck that fail vs 33 that succeed, the odds are in your favor. Add to that that you can cheat or stone a fail and you're looking pretty good.

This obviously is a gamble, and isn't a tactic you should be using every turn, but can give you a huge speed boost for a turn should you need it against an opponent who is familiar with Pandy's normal shenanigans and is doing their best to shut her down.

Also want to point out that as of this moment, this is only theory, but I'll probably be trying it out myself this weekend.

[heckler]

at a tournament a few weeks ago, there was a staffer from wyrd who said they may make incite/pacify not targetable on friendlies, so i've been bracing for it by assuming so. pandora is still really solid.

i've been playing panda under the following assumptions lately

cannot incite/pacify friendly models

cannot link sorrows to other sorrows

even with these restrictions, i've still not lost with pandora and have only had one game that came close.

[dreadpiratelynx]

Wow, that seems like a bit of a knee jerk overreaction. I know you say that you haven't had problems playing this way, but I'm having a hard time seeing how it can work against half-way decent opponents. Incite and Pacify are too unreliable against enemy models to be relied on for movement unless you start using your high cards to ensure success. At that point you're making it less likely your casts are going to be effective.

Honestly if they do this it seems to me that they are catering to all the people who would rather call something broken than actually use their heads and figure out a way to stop it. She's not impossible to stop as she is, I've done it myself. You just need to understand how she works to do it (which you could say about any master in the hands of a good general).

I will admit however that if my above idea works half as well as I think it will, she probably will need something done to her, but I think making Incite/Pacify enemy only is the wrong way to go about it.

Edited May 5, 2010 by dreadpiratelynx

[heckler]

we have a pretty competitive scene around here and pandora is still a tough nut to crack. captain danger and myself play her. he hasn't had as much luck with her, but he doesn't always get the concept of finesse armies down in a timely matter. i've played plenty of games where i've lost nothing but a couple sorrows. with incite/pacify on your own guys, it makes the first turn kill too reliable. the other option would be to make it one use only as if it were a regular 0 action. i'm not too keen on the 2nd choice since it is her safety net.

honestly, i just use the sorrows casting to get movement from panda. i use incite/pacify to get back. or sometimes if i can wrap it up, i incite to keep what can screw me from going first, leaving me plenty of time to cast doldrums on it later. a successful project emotions is all you need to ensure they won't be useful on their turn.

to make sure you cast your spells, use the soulstones. i've honestly not found much use for them otherwise, panda tends to take few hits.

so in 8 games, pandora has taken 5 damage, i've lost 9 sorrows, teddy has been killed once(only used him 3 times), candy has allowed like 5 healing flips, and kade has only stabbed 3 people. i've made probably around 12-14 things fall back with pandora's trigger, i've paralyzed several models. really, project emotions with her trigger is truly sick; a good cheat and soulstone and you can change the trend of the battle immediately.

[dreadpiratelynx]

with incite/pacify on your own guys, it makes the first turn kill too reliable.

Possibly, depending on deployment and terrain, but then you have Pandy unsupported well ahead of your front line for around 2-3 turns (I don't consider Sorrows "support"). Not a very fun place to be IMHO. She's likely to end up dead as well.

I can see what you're saying, but ultimately if they make this change to her, I see her as being infinitely easier to shut down, and not in a good way. I'm not saying that I want to play an invincible Master, but without the speed she currently has, the people I regularly play against would tear her apart every game.

[Joona]

Wow, that seems like a bit of a knee jerk overreaction. I know you say that you haven't had problems playing this way, but I'm having a hard time seeing how it can work against half-way decent opponents. Incite and Pacify are too unreliable against enemy models to be relied on for movement unless you start using your high cards to ensure success. At that point you're making it less likely your casts are going to be effective.

I don't know if it's too much. It is extremely hard for most crews to beat her when she can zoom in even on first turn, do stuff and probably hide behind a forest about 16-20" away from any opposition. And if the first strike doesn't hit her, she's even further away again. She was a bit of an easy button against most crews especially if the opponent had a bit limited supply of options in the form of miniatures he has.

Last game I played, on the first turn I killed one punk zombie, made another one fall back and the last one took two wounds. And that was with no Sorrows. Of course my opponent didn't think that could happen at all and had bunched up the Punks a bit but still that's too harsh. He had not realized how far a Terror Tot can move.

At least this limits her movement capabilities and you can't just waltz in anywhere and anytime you like and still be safe. And it's not that risky to use Incite/Pacify on enemy models, you'll just have to have big cards/soulstones to do that, just like whenever you really want to hit something. Now we'll just have to be more careful when to strike and it can't be done every round.

Now Candy has to wail at her to give her the extra movement or cast spells at her. (Could we get a Companion ability for all Woes, please? )

[Csonti]

As a regular Pandy player I fully support the cuddle that would narrow the targets of Incite/Pacify to enemy models.

I really don't see any fun killing anybody with her except Perdita with the Governor's Proxy. Nor does my possible opponents who simply refuse to play her by now. :sad2:

And I simply don't belive in the "learn to play against her" option. A well played Pandy player can only be stoped by luck of the deck.

[Omadon]

Mentioned this months ago! Panda needs Cuddling haarrd. Played a game against a McMourning player - depopulated the entire map on turn two. (Well, I accidentally left a convict gunslinger on 2 as I didn't move close enough to it) Using the following:

Panda

4 Sorrows

Doppleganger

Student of Conflict

Hooded Rider (Which sat around doing nothing as it was too slow to keep up)

And, I did it with 2 AP to spare.

[ork56]

Have all but the last Sorrow to act try (and fail) to Pacify/Incite Pandy, then cast a spell or two at her (which she also resists). .

Pandora resisting spells cast against Wp do not trigger the movement when she wins as they are not 'Wp duels'.

They are Ca resists using Wp - it is a slight but important differentiation.

unless of course I have misunderstood everything again....

[Lucidicide]

Pandora resisting spells cast against Wp do not trigger the movement when she wins as they are not 'Wp duels'.

They are Ca resists using Wp - it is a slight but important differentiation.

unless of course I have misunderstood everything again....

Incite/Pacify are Wp -> Wp duels.

[Monkeyclops]

My group has had all the same experiences with Pandora. My friend who plays her is actually shelving her for a bit because its just not fun to play against her. She Incites/Pacifies to the front lines, does a ton of damage and Incite/Pacifies out.

I like the idea of Incite/Pacify on enemies only.

Another idea I had was that you could not Incite/Pacify a model that already activated that turn OR that the text for Incite/Pacify about being able to use the ability again that activation be reworded to say you can use the ability again immediately.

[Lucidicide]

I certainly wouldn't mind Pandora getting hit with some more restrictions, and I play as her and no one I've played against has played her.

I think Incite/Pacify to enemies only and having to use them in a direct chain sounds good to me.

[Hatchethead]

I can only assume Pandora will suffer in Errata 2.0. I seem to recall Sketch mentioning that Pandy is "being looked at" ...

[wrabbit37]

I haven't played much with Pandora, but looking over her stats, it seems like she'd be pretty weak without being able to target friendly models. At least maneuverability-wise. She only moves 3/- walk/charge. How is she going to be able to get in range of any control points if it takes her 2 full rounds to just move a foot across the three foot board?

[Lucidicide]

I haven't played much with Pandora, but looking over her stats, it seems like she'd be pretty weak without being able to target friendly models. At least maneuverability-wise. She only moves 3/- walk/charge. How is she going to be able to get in range of any control points if it takes her 2 full rounds to just move a foot across the three foot board?

Well, that's a 3' board that you don't start on the edge of. What is it, 8" in? Then you move 6" on turn one and are 14" in, let's assume your opponent did the same... that's 28" in, meaning there's only 8" of space in-between you. That's plenty of range to cast the spell.

Sure, you can be outmaneuvered, but that wouldn't be unique to Pandora. If your opponent has a center objective, you can believe s/he will be coming that way, and all you need is that 12" range, and since it's a (0), you can even double move first and with Casting Expert still get off another spell after your long chain of (0)s.

[dreadpiratelynx]

Pandora resisting spells cast against Wp do not trigger the movement when she wins as they are not 'Wp duels'.

They are Ca resists using Wp - it is a slight but important differentiation.

unless of course I have misunderstood everything again....

It's a Ca duel for the caster and a Wp duel for the defender.

Well, that's a 3' board that you don't start on the edge of. What is it, 8" in? Then you move 6" on turn one and are 14" in, let's assume your opponent did the same... that's 28" in, meaning there's only 8" of space in-between you. That's plenty of range to cast the spell.

That's assuming that you're using standard deployment (and actually it's only 6" in), and that there's no terrain to move around or to block LoS. If you're using the corner deployments there's 29" or 40" between deployment zones depending on if it's square or triangle deployment. For some reason my games tend to be played on the latter. I'm not bringing this up to say "See?! She can't get into range turn one!" I simply noticed the error in your calculations and wanted to comment on them.

I'd like to say that as far as the first turn kill is concerned, I never even attempt it. As I've said before, doing so leaves her unsupported in the event that it goes horribly wrong, and I'm not really willing to risk that. I don't make a move with her until the rest of my crew is in position on about turn 3, which could be the reason I don't see the same problems as the rest of you.

Again, I don't doubt that she needs something done to her, but the proposed change would take her from being one of the fastest Masters in the game to one of the slowest (unless you get really lucky). That's a huge change.

Edited May 5, 2010 by dreadpiratelynx

[Lucidicide]

It's a Ca duel for the caster and a Wp duel for the defender.

That's assuming that you're using standard deployment (and actually it's only 6" in). If you're using the corner deployments there's 29" or 40" between deployment zones depending on if it's square or triangle deployment. For some reason my games tend to be played on the latter.

Again, I don't doubt that she needs something done to her, but the proposed change would take her from being one of the fastest Masters in the game to one of the slowest (unless you get really lucky). That's a huge change.

Good point. I tend to think about the straight across deployment.

It is a huge change, but what is the happy medium? Cut down on the push distance? If you only push 2" you can still get some good range, but there's less of a chance of you flying across the entire board.

[dreadpiratelynx]

It is a huge change, but what is the happy medium? Cut down on the push distance? If you only push 2" you can still get some good range, but there's less of a chance of you flying across the entire board.

I'd probably be a lot less resistant to that change as it still let's me cast without automatically leaving her exposed. She's way too squishy to leave exposed.

[Iron Man]

Pandora isnt too fast in my opinion. for incite/pacify to work there has to be targets, usually sorrows, and sometimes enemies. they have to all succeed, and in succeeding against your friendlies you are messing up your activation order so your opponent can know where/when to strike, which i think is a reasonable cost for the speed. And she will still get outrun by fast models if she has unlucky draws.

I think she is a pretty tough cookie to crack. Ive played 3 games with her, havent lost so far, but havent won either. My biggest problem is making a crew for her that will accomplish my scenario goals. Treasure hunting, holding ground, recon, sorrows are useless at them all, and the other guys cost too much.

My opponents would probably tell you pandoras toughness is equalled out by her so easy to kill crew. They also lack a lot, in that most of the spells who whole crew puts out have effects that last until the end closing phase, rather than until the end of the models next activation. It makes a lot of them pointless if that model has already moved this turn, and this go's to the whole crew.

The other thing to remember is that self loathing isnt that good of a damaging spell. always has a negative flip, and it depends on your targets own melee weapons.

Then again maybe im playing her wrong, maybes i should just be aiming to make my opponent lose a lot of morale duels instead of trying to kill them.

[Monkey]

Pandora isnt too fast in my opinion. for incite/pacify to work there has to be targets, usually sorrows, and sometimes enemies. they have to all succeed, and in succeeding against your friendlies you are messing up your activation order so your opponent can know where/when to strike, which i think is a reasonable cost for the speed. And she will still get outrun by fast models if she has unlucky draws.

I think she is a pretty tough cookie to crack. Ive played 3 games with her, havent lost so far, but havent won either. My biggest problem is making a crew for her that will accomplish my scenario goals. Treasure hunting, holding ground, recon, sorrows are useless at them all, and the other guys cost too much.

My opponents would probably tell you pandoras toughness is equalled out by her so easy to kill crew. They also lack a lot, in that most of the spells who whole crew puts out have effects that last until the end closing phase, rather than until the end of the models next activation. It makes a lot of them pointless if that model has already moved this turn, and this go's to the whole crew.

The other thing to remember is that self loathing isnt that good of a damaging spell. always has a negative flip, and it depends on your targets own melee weapons.

Then again maybe im playing her wrong, maybes i should just be aiming to make my opponent lose a lot of morale duels instead of trying to kill them.

Self loathing is not a real killer, its the you have failed a WP you take 1+Woes in 3" damage and if the trigger is off you are falling back and Pandora is off another 4" dragging the woes with her.

once she has done that she can then incite the woes attached to her to get out of dodge.

If your entire crew has incite cast on them then you can pick who to activate.

She is not unbeatable in her current form but you need one of 2 things.

your opponent to make a mistake or you get lucky....... If you are playing gremlins just pack up

[Wodschow]

your opponent to make a mistake or you get lucky....... If you are playing gremlins just pack up

Okay.. I never played a Pandora vs. Jones..

But.. On the paper even if Gremlins have a silly low Wp they do have access to a fair amount of blasts, with fairly long range even - and Pandora really doesn't like those.

If she's bringing Sorrows it'd take only two Dumb Luck blasts to get her down.

And if she isn't.. Then unless she wants to target 2SS models with her magics it'd be troublesome for her to avoid Gremlins recklessly running 15" towards her only to be blown up by their comrades.

Of course I am most likely wrong, but I think Gremlins should have at least a glimpse of a chance..

[Melnibonean]

...

And if she isn't.. Then unless she wants to target 2SS models with her magics it'd be troublesome for her to avoid Gremlins recklessly running 15" towards her only to be blown up by their comrades.

Not really a problem for her. Incite/Pacify has a 12' range (24' radius). If a bunch of Gremlins were recklessly running 15" towards her All she would need to do is move to a central position and start casting Incite/Pacify. With only Wp4 Gremlins would have a hard time beating her in a WP>Wp duel and she could just keep casting it ad infinatum, inflicting 1Wd for every failed Wp duel. Add to that any linked Sorrows and Emotional Stress and you'd have a whole lot of kaput Gremlins in one activation.

Fading Memory would also allow her to push to a new position with every failed Wp duel to maximise the damage from Emotional Stress/Trauma.

[Wodschow]

Not really gonna defend my views, as I have nothing to back them up, so consider it questions as to why the following wouldn't work.

You should have more models so should out-activate her, unless she is using Persistent Distraction on herself.

15" > 12", so Gremlins should have the edge here.. If they wanna fire at their own piglets the range is even higher, and getting the blast template off the range is around 20".

Pandora can't really move that well if she doesn't cast, and she can only target each model once with Pacify/Incite and if she fails even a single one she can't cast it no more, so without Sorrows it'd still take some casting to kill even measly Gremlins.

If her Pacify/Incite engine shuts down in an unfortunate spot the Gremlins might even be able run and blow themselves up with Y'all Watch This, to bring her down.

Well I don't know.. On the paper I think Gremlins have a fair chance to bring her down, question is whether they sacrifice too many of their own models for that sole purpose and thereby loses to the the rest of her crew. Still, might be all wrong Have yet to see Gremlins in action..

[Wyrdo]

. With only Wp4 Gremlins would have a hard time beating her in a WP>Wp duel and she could just keep casting it ad infinatum, inflicting 1Wd for every failed Wp duel. Add to that any linked Sorrows and Emotional Stress and you'd have a whole lot of kaput Gremlins in one activation.

Fading Memory would also allow her to push to a new position with every failed Wp duel to maximise the damage from Emotional Stress/Trauma.

Well you can't cast incite/pacify ad infinatum as in the (extra) errata it says that you need to target an enemy model not affected by incite or pacify. But still she would do a fair amount of damage and the gremlins also need a Wp>Wp duel to target her...

[MadArcanist]

Actually the last game I heard Gremlins vs Pandora, she got stomped pretty hard. But when you have stuff that does high damage and doesn't target it gets kinda hard to do anything about it, plus you can also get screwed on the WP dual and have to cheat or use a SS, which is always a good thing.