Hordes MkII - Reactions & predictions thread (as it goes)

[Dire Hoarcat Snuggler]

So as it will become apparent, I've turned to the dark side and grabbed some Hordes models to bide my time between Wyrd releases (Trollkin for myself, Everblight for my girlfriend who loves cute elfy things and reindeer and dragons). I've been waiting to get ahold of any books until whenever MkII Hordes rules come out. Having never played Hordes or Warmachine before, I will be completely unbiased as to how the game works in MkII as compared to MkI rules.

In this thread, I'd like experienced players of Hordes (or Warmahordes) to voice their opinions on what things the game may be losing in essence, and what the game may be gaining by the streamlining of points, changing of rules, or changing of unit/beast/warlock attributes in the near future, based on what is already known of the current playtesting documents.

In addition, I'd like to hear what others think of the new plastic kits for Hordes (I already know what many think of the new Wm jacks and their versatility in plastic) such as the Fennblades, Warspears, and so on. I myself found that while the models are light, beautifully sculpted, easy to prepare (removing mold lines & otherwise cleaning them up), there were issues with how the posts in the dual arms were supposed to fit into the torso unless you got rid of most of both posts or warped the arms first with a hair dryer / heatgun / stovetop. Any thoughts on the advantages or disadvantages of using the resin they are using? This isn't a really big complaint from me - I trimmed some posts, glued and puttied the arms and loincloth, and they look seamless and awesome as they should. I'd just like to hear from some of the experienced PP players and professional sculptors out there what you all might think about the new models! I mean at least, for one thing, they ARE cheaper than similar models in metal!!! 47.99 gets you 6 Kriel warriors, while 49.99 gets you 10 Fennblades. 39.99 gets you 3 Warmongers, while 44.99 gets you 5 Warspears. Go figure - resin is cheaper than pewter!!!

~J~

Edited January 7, 2010 by Dire Hoarcat Snuggler

[MVM]

My biggest concern and one I hear frequently is that Hordes at the moment only seems balanced against warmachine at higher point levels. The biggest thing the game has lost is momentum. The field test really was an icy breath on our local group.

MVM

[Dire Hoarcat Snuggler]

Good news for Malifaux then... all of our tentative Warmahordes players here have picked up a bit of Malifaux as a "fun game on the side"... wait til they get a load of the disappointment!!!

Meanwhile, though, does it look like at least Hordes will be balanced to itself? I'd like to try it on its own, as I'm still not exactly enamored of much of Warmachine.

~J~

[MVM]

I think that while the field test gave Malifaux a great oppertunity to get it's foot in the door at my store- that it will still have to work hard to keep it's place. Most of the local players love Malifaux for its minis and it's game play feel- at the same time there is a lot of grumbling about Malifauxs rule book. I sincearly hope that the next edition of the rule book has a better glossary - and the faq really needs to get here asap. It can be a living document- that's fine....but there are a lot of holes in the rules.

I think that Hordes will come out balanced vs Hordes- and I'm holding out hope that it will still come out balanced vs Warmaching. The field test is still running and Privateer has always pleased me with their ability to balance things (overall).

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

Their plastic units are OK. I have two units of Fennblades myself.

My big issue with them is that they aren't really customizable. I was hoping for a little more variance or extra bits.

And 49.99 for 10 Fennblades (medium based infantry) vs. 44.99 for 5 Warspears (also medium based infantry). Makes you wonder how the difference of 5 bucks = 5 dudes... :hmmmm:

As to MKII, it is what it is. It's not the Warmachine/Hordes of old. The WM MKII book is nice looking. I just hope they can rebuild some of the fanbase they lost.

[nerdelemental]

I just hope they can rebuild some of the fanbase they lost.

I find myself caring less and less every day, unfortunately....

[DireTrollJake]

I keep trying to gain interest, but really...the price tag turns me away big time. I own my faction for Mali and I've spend less than 2 WM starter boxes. Also I tried playing a quick game and kept whiffing on an attack and wanting to cheat fate, or only activate one model, haha.

[DangerousBeans]

I'm new to Hordes as of the field test release (bought a ton of Skorne for much cheapness the day of release) but MKII Warmachine is great. I don't understand all the doomsayers. It's still the same game, just less of a head****

Hordes armies are generally better than WM in the early game, but when your beasts start dying you really feel it. You need to get stuck in and smash as much face as you can while you can. No space to bide your time. Sadly this means that against big shooting armies Hordes fails miserably, with fragile WM armies though (well, Cryx) the games are awsomely violent!

I'm really impressed with PP and the way they are letting their community help develop the game. Hopefully they won't go the way of that other company.

[n0signal]

I have to unfortunately echo the (slightly) negative sentiments about Privateer Press over 2009; basically as MVM said, they've lost a lot of momentum and I'm really struggling to get my enthusiasm back. If you jumped in the TARDIS and zipped back to the start of last year, I totally would have gone out and brought WM MKII, factions decks, faction books, new plastic jacks, new casters, THE LOT... in a heart beat!! Now I'm struggling to justify picking anything up except maybe the faction decks so that I can still play games. *shrug*

The problem was, it all seemed to grind to a halt, with only the Retribution to keep interest going over the summer; and if, like me, you thought they looked pants and the rules were an uninspiring rehash of everything else, then it simply wasn't enough. Malifaux EXPLODED here after GenCon, and I was hella interested in the game anyway, because a diceless card system really appealed to me, and the setting is awesome-sauce. Also, my friends were heavily into Infinity by that point, so I picked up a small force and joined playing that game, which I now enjoy immensely.

I played a Warmachine/Hordes MKII game on Monday against my friend's Legion force (I play Cryx), and while it's still the same game I used to love except streamlined, it just feels like it's lost it's charm now. Case in point, I charged an Angelius (with Tenacity and an upkeep on it that made it DEF17) with Terminus (with Malediction up and all 6 Focus) and whiffed loads of attack rolls; absolutely pathetic scores on three dice!.. and there was nothing I could do about it.

It bothered me, to say the least. I guess I'm just used to more elaborate mechanics now like "cheating fate" in Malifaux or "ARO" in Infinity allowing me to mitigate things somewhat; rather than chucking a couple of D6's and preying for a result.

[Malebolgia]

HUGE fan of MKII Warmachine and Hordes. It's exactly what the games needed and they really drive them forwards. MKII Warmachine is very good with some good changes (Skarrebomb, Temporal Barrier, Sorcha, Bane Knights, Idrians (!!!), Vilmon)...it all became less weird and a rulesfest that was at the end of MKI. Things are more streamlined now and work much better.

The PP forum is a total disaster at the moment IMO. People are screaming so many strange things about the games, it's not even funny anymore. There are so many naysayers about WM vs Hordes, Skorne, etc. The whole Hordes fieldtest is getting quite weird with some of the people posting.

Hordes is getting there...Skorne needs some tweaks (some stuff is too good, other aren't) and some small things in the rest of the factions and done. People screaming Hordes doesn't hold up against Warmachine really amaze me. Hordes is powerful and holds his own against Warmachine very well. Thing is, the game has moved on and you'll have to change gameplay to an extent. But for me, that's what keeps it fresh 8)

[MVM]

I'm saying that Hordes is challenged against Warmachine based on games that I've been playing. Hordes is playing a premium for the one turn that we can max out our fury. Warbeasts are statistically stat-wise inferior to jacks. It's just numbers. Point for point the games are simply not balanced. I sincearly hope Privateer is able to pull it together and get it balanced. If they don't I'll just play the two games seperately. I have an army for each.

[blakeh1]

Good news for Malifaux then... all of our tentative Warmahordes players here have picked up a bit of Malifaux as a "fun game on the side"... wait til they get a load of the disappointment!!!

That is the case in most of our Warmachine/Hordes group. Malifaux hit at the opportune time in the lull between the MKII field test and when we actually will finally get MKII rules/new stuff. Most of have at least one crew, if not 2 or 3.

[DangerousBeans]

Malifaux took off well here but sadly almost everyone picked crews that needed models desperately. In the wait for young nephilim, ronin, leveticus's stuff, a lot of ressers stuff etc people quickly got bored of it (philestines!) Hopefully with all the new stuff and when the field test is over I can get back to making everyone play Malifaux.

WM/Hordes is my "big game". All said I probably do enjoy the mechanics of Malifaux and Infinity more as you're never just sitting back and hoping for the best, but sometimes you just want a big robot beasting the crap out of things (TAG's don't count!)

I also await with baited breath and demons at the ready for the return of Hell Dorado.

[Dire Hoarcat Snuggler]

I can see the appeal of Hordes/WM being stylistically over the top, heavy, and ridiculous. It was in the form of Trollbloods & Legion that this actually appealed to me, though, which is rare. Compared to silly-jacks, Malifaux has just the right amount of silly, great style, reasonable prices, reasonable model sizes & masses, and a great flexible rules set that gives you more of a say over game outcomes. I can see it becoming someone's big game (I mean, I'm saying that and I was a Warhammerhead!).

~J~

[Isoulle]

Warmachine. I hope it does well. I love the game and I do wish it the best. I love Malifaux too but it doesn't mean I want both to survive. One is my skirmish game of choice, the other my army game of choice.

Personally I like MK2 for the most part. I have some objections mind you but all around I think it's better than MK1 as it's basically the same but avoids all the nasty bomb lists (For now). Seriously, Am I the only one who died a little inside when people played the strangling bombs chain out of Sorcha's spell for Khador?

[Gargathor]

HUGE fan of MKII Warmachine and Hordes. It's exactly what the games needed and they really drive them forwards. MKII Warmachine is very good with some good changes (Skarrebomb, Temporal Barrier, Sorcha, Bane Knights, Idrians (!!!), Vilmon)...it all became less weird and a rulesfest that was at the end of MKI. Things are more streamlined now and work much better.

The PP forum is a total disaster at the moment IMO.

Agree with all this 100%. I went through a downswing of interest during WM Field test, but since the release of the cards pdf, I've been playing like a fiend and loving it. Legion has always played second fiddle to my Cryx.

Five of us in Madison bought Malifaux. Two of us bring it to WM Wednesday, and usually play one game of Wm and one of Mal. Another guy hasn't shown up at all, and another is returning to regular weekly visits with the release of MKII, so hopefully we can get him to bring Malifaux too.

[Wombats]

I bought up Retribution during the MkII Warmachine field test.

The Retribution minis are beautiful (I'm a fan of Eldar and Tau)

It looks like a game I'd like to play.

The only games I've had, though, were dominated by Master abilities and ... I dunno, people weren't playing for fun.

It is a drastically different community to 40K or Malifaux.

I know most of the people I like playing with (more painters and fun storytellers than min/maxers) are naturally gravitating towards Malifaux and almost all of them used to play Warmachine.

I do get the feeling that Malifaux took what Warmachine did and pushed it a few steps further.

To echo a previous post, the probability curve of WM seems very predictable and I find myself wanting to Cheat Fate.

[Morf]

It bothered me, to say the least. I guess I'm just used to more elaborate mechanics now like "cheating fate" in Malifaux or "ARO" in Infinity allowing me to mitigate things somewhat; rather than chucking a couple of D6's and preying for a result.

I think there is a lot of doomsaying here.

PP is a great company which managed to survive a transition from home company to a giant, with extremely good communication with the fanbase. At these volumes, you can't satisfy everybody, in fact, the more you try the more you stray from a good model they obviously have.

You say there is no "elaborate mechanics"? I guess we all forgot what innovation focus/fury were back in the days.

How having a central figure that shapes your army (same as in Malifaux) strayed from the concept of other games.

So my praise where it's due.

[paradox]

MK2 is alot better and more fun to play than MK1 had become.

The Hordes factions will turn out fine. 99% of what you hear read is gamer hyperbole because they feel they have a stake in the game design now and have formed an emotional attachment to ideas X Y and Z.

It's a brilliant move on PPs part, IMO. Lots of people might end up pissed, and a few might ditch the game over it, but selling an emotional attachment cements brands. People seem to often say PP is hurting in the same breath they say they are the next GW.

Kinda ironic.

Dave, you say you are less an less enthused. How many minis/factions have you sold off so far?

Just sayin.

[DireTrollJake]

I keep boucin back and forth between playing again, or playing WHFB or playing 40k. Any of which will be the back burner game to Malifaux, and we are looking into AoW Deathmatch still as well, but for an army sized game, these are the three to choose from.

Attempted to play WM again and it just seemed very dumbed down to me, not in step down from MK1 cuz that was a great improvement. But in a way that 40k seemed dumbed down to me vs WM. Not that it isn't all tactics, but it was less rules to remember per model in ratio, and if I am going to feel that way about my larger game, I think 40k may see more opponents here. Who knows.

[nerdelemental]

Dave, you say you are less an less enthused. How many minis/factions have you sold off so far?

Just sayin.

Not many.

I try only half-heartedly to sell it off - still quite a lot of emotional attachment. I have strong and positive memories of many games.

And a batch of frustrating memories, too.

The game served me well. I'm not retired permanently, but when I brought my gear to play, I found zero desire to pull it out and play. That may be something I cannot shake, especially given my love affair with Malifaux.

[paradox]

I'd guess that it's just that Malifaux turns your crank right now and that's fine. If the game truely meant nothing, nothing would stop you from getting some money back out of it to reinvest in malifaux/other stuff.

IMO there is a difference between putting a game down and quitting entirely cause you don't care.

I put down my GW stuff for about 4-5 years. In fact, I needed cash so I sold a good deal or traded etc. But I bought and traded into a 2500pt daemon army in the past 6 months (even as I seek to unload the rest of my undead I've collected in the past 15 years). There was a time when my opinion of GW was much like yours seems to be of PP. But I bet if you sell it all off, you'll wish you hadn't. And I bet you'll play again, even if just in a different capacity.

I think you'd really like MK2. But I think that you want a solid, released rule set and maybe more casual play than competative.

Which is why you should play me.

Not many.

I try only half-heartedly to sell it off - still quite a lot of emotional attachment. I have strong and positive memories of many games.

And a batch of frustrating memories, too.

The game served me well. I'm not retired permanently, but when I brought my gear to play, I found zero desire to pull it out and play. That may be something I cannot shake, especially given my love affair with Malifaux.

[nerdelemental]

Yes. Part of my disdain is running so many events - not playing - with players that became overly and caustically competitive.

MKII does toot my horn a bit on paper. I thought I had the bug back, but when I tried to prepare an army I kept pulling out my Malifaux stuff "just to look over". I agree, too - once it's out of the FT stage and into the "final" stages I'll be more on board.

I don't intend to sell all of my stuff anyway - I plan to keep Cryx and Legion, and then maybe one additional faction (probably Circle). So, I'd have to sell Cygnar, Khador, Menoth, Mercs, and probably Circle. Transitioning all of that to MKII is another reason I'm not enthusiastic. It'd cost me as much in multiple rulebooks, cards, etc., as the entire miniature line of Malifaux... (hyperbole, but not by a lot...)

edit: oh, and I still pop over there almost every day and skim very briefly just to keep more or less abreast of big events. Even that's waning a bit, though.

Burnout.

And Malifaux is hella fun.

Edited January 12, 2010 by nerdelemental

[paradox]

Incidentally, I gave your's and Chuck's phone numbers to John Holcombe (of Pro or Con). I can get you his email/number if you want. Obviously you could line up any kind of event you like....

I don't have a date yet, but I bet he could tell you.

[Entiago]

Meh, is how I feel about Warmachine/Hordes with this long break in play. Ever since the MK2 field test for warmachine back last summer/fall I havnt played many games, nor bought anything from PP. to afraid i would get screwed again with a unit (Bloodgorgers) again. But every Wed I bring my lots to play whatever whoever wants to play. Lately its been a trek loading the car up- 2 full division bags (Cryx & Legion) and 2 motorpool bags (Trollbloods & Mailfaux).

I do agree Malifaux came at the perfect time when WM/H was in limbo due to field testing and the scirmish games are great, they dont take that long, the price is relativly cheap (compared to a full army), and the scultps are beautiful (PP has ok sculpts-units are ok). Although my main faction of choice is Cryx-I have untill May to get the faction book and new models released...plenty of time to catch up on my painting. And until hordes MK2 is official, more than likely I will be playing Mailfaux... even after then I will still be playing both, but I paint more than play.