Boundaries of good taste

[Guest Eastern Front Studios]

in another thread the mention of perverse acts was mentioned I'm just wondering what we consider the boundary of good taste on miniatures..Ive seen a few from UK that would make a sailor blush,.. but these minis are more underground seems..Ive been to a few model shows that disallowed them to be displayed even partially nude minis..or the con people would have them cover the nude parts or remove them all together..Horror and gore they dont seem to have problems with as I guess its mainstream now on TV..just thought to hear what you guys thought.

[cdukino]

For me it's simple. I don't mind a mini showing any pewter or resin flesh, any flesh, any gender. But it's all about the matter in which it's shown. The B-porn-movie stands and acts I don't care about and could do without. Most (almost all) of them are female (with the occasioal company) and far from woman friendly or flattering (thinking some of excaliburs miniatures for instance, which doesn't help they are badly sculpted at that. Just leaving distastefull ugly miniatures with the only purpose to show a distastefull phornographic scene). I do not mind the sexy playboy/playgirl poses. I also don't mind it if genitalia are showing (like with the freebooter demoness), but it has to make sence with the pose and figure. Not just there just to have it there if you know what I mean. Often the more beautifully sculpted the more it can get away with... but there are boundries.

[Ritual]

I don't get this hysteria about nudity! It seems very hypocritical to me (especially since graphic violence is no problem at all... ). Personally, I don't care for hardcore pornographic miniatures (i.e. minis involved in explicit sexual activities) and I often think that the more softcore pornographic stuff (like what Pegaso makes) can be extremely cheesy but then there can be a certain charm to it (like with said Pegaso models as they are made in a older type of pornographic style).

I would never suggest to anyone that you can't do this or you can't do that or call for some sort of censorship. I just ignore stuff I find tasteless. And there's plenty of things I find more tasteless than nudity.

[Nathan Caroland]

I don't think nudity is an issue, and even enjoy it (duh, I'm a guy). Obviously if I don't like something I won't bother with it, but I know that I don't much care for some blatant pornographic stuff, but then again, it doesn't really bother me either.

Now I know this came about due to the idea of some artwork for a game of an angel being raped and that there I find rather tasteless (good word Anders, going to steel that one as my word of the day) and more to the point, offensive. Myself, I've got a problem with it for my own reasons in anything, whether depicted in a movie or tv (more often than not I get up and leave or turn it off) a book (put down more than one graphic book) or anything else for that matter. If someone was to make a miniature of something along those lines, I personally wouldn't buy it.

That being said, there is a market for everything out there - just look at how much Henti and other whatnot is out there. Obviously a market somewhere, so if someone made it, I'm certain someone would buy it.

Now a bit of dominance, S&M and the like, I don't mind that I think. For instance, Kev White did a miniature of a naked male in a zipper mask and some female with him. Doesn't bother me. Or, the one that caused a ruckus the first Total Testosterone, Klutes diorama (go look for it, you'll see what I mean) which I thought was just fabulous as you can see the setup makes it a 'game'.

Of course, take that same setup and make it where she's all tore up, look of horror on her face and him doing something a bit more disturbing and I would be turned off by it instead of amused and appreciative.

Of course, its all in the eye of the beholder I expect.

[Brimshack]

I expect I would probably draw the line rather differently. What strikes me as tasteless is usually something rather subtle, whereas I actually prefer both sex and violence to be depicted with a rather unblinking eye ...or not at all. It's like some of the euphemisms for sex that you only hear when someone is uncomfortable with the subject. Far from toning things down, they actually serve as red flags, so to speak, telling us that something is wrong.

WARNIG - POSSIBLE SPOILERS

I often wonder at the notion that highly graphic images are significantly more problematic than tamer ones. We hear all the time that excessively violent movies desensitize us. I wonder about that though. What's more desensitizing, a movie that shows the suffering associated with violence in graphic detail, or one where gun shots kill people quickly and everyone shot dies immediately after an almost comic "argh!" (or finishes the battle with a mild flesh wound)? I think of the old westerns with so much less graphic violence and I can't help but think they are so much more desensitizing than say The Unforgiven where we get to see someone screaming for water after being gutshot or The Proposition where they make it very clear that a public lashing was a life threatening event. The deaths that occur an old John Wayne or even an early Clint Eastwood flick seem to make gunplay seem harmless, even fun. It's not that those old movies are entirely heartless, but they always shield us from the greatest pains implied in their own stories. And when the bad guys is killed, it's as if the world is clean again and everything is now as it should be. I think that's a desenstizing message. Show me a movie like the War Zone where the bad guy ends up crying like a baby and eliciting real sympathy just a moment after you wanted to reach through the screen and hurt him yourself (at least I did). The extra touch would turn a lot of people off, but it turns them off precisely because it doesn't let them shut out the pain. It's far from desensitizing. If a movie wants to cover violence, and wants to cover it seriously, then I'd rather see them deal with it in frank terms. ...and that means showing the real costs of the violence.

How this relates to miniatures, I am not entirely sure. I do find it interesting in a business where we routinely depict instruments of great suffering to see where people (myself included) suddenly draw the line. I'm quite aware of the fact that the difference for me is often rather arbitrary. My suspicion is that some of us might want to think more carefully about what those swords and spears actually mean if we are going to balk at the more explicitly cruel stuff. There is a lot of cruelty in these images; we just don't always see it, not until some specific detail rubs us the wrong way.

...pointless meandering thoughts.

[Ritual]

Interesting points there... I'm often amazed at how certain things are suddenly OK if you only hide or don't show some small detail. Like, as you mentioned, people getting show without much suffering or blood shed is considered far less violent than someone getting shot with blood spattering the wall behind them.

Another thing that I find hillarious is that full-frontal nudity is a no-no in (mainly American) films but as long as you hide the genitals and the nipples on women you can show the rest as much as you like! Nipples = No, can't have that! Immoral!! Breast showing but nipples hid from view = No problem! :hmmmm:

[Malebolgia]

Nudity I don't care about (and usually it doesn't mean a lot to me...they are 28mm metal miniatures for Pete's sake), unless it is done by Kev White. Somehow he always manages to get fantastic poses and sculpts that I always love, regardless of the amount of clothes.

But featuring rape in a miniatures game (as Xenon_Wulf suggested about Helldorado) goes too far to me. Then IMO a company looses perspective and crosses a border they should not cross. This is a hobby after all and although I understand they want to make hell as realistic as possible, themes like rape should be avoided. Heck, does anybody know how hell looks like?! Maturing a game is okay, but there are boundaries.

[Brimshack]

Another thing that I find hillarious is that full-frontal nudity is a no-no in (mainly American) films but as long as you hide the genitals and the nipples on women you can show the rest as much as you like! Nipples = No, can't have that! Immoral!! Breast showing but nipples hid from view = No problem! :hmmmm:

Heh, the funny thing about it is I think the one is linked to the other. Nudity would not be near so interesting were it not so taboo out here. The real reason the nipples must be covered, I can't help thinking is so that folks can sell money off teasing the possibility of their appearance. Censorship and pornography are just two dimensions of the same obsession as far as I'm concerned. but I seem to be full of opinions tonight...

[Wren]

Interesting question... I'm fine with nudity, of both genders. (If anything, I'd like to see more naked beefcake just to balance out all the cheesecake a little. :->) I'm also fine with sexualized nudity. My line on that is probably in the ballpark of FF's - anything depicting someone being hurt or tortured in a serious and realistic fashion would likely be beyond my comfort level. There are media where I can be more accepting of it. Or I guess I mean there are situations where going beyond a comfort level might be necessary to make a thematic or artistic point and I would accept that. Sort of what Brimshack is saying - showing a more realistic depiction of something distasteful can help reinforce/explain/remind people that it is horrible, and why, so I'm not going to take against every book or movie or whatever that does that. However, I don't think I see a lot of situations where I could justify that from a game or miniatures for a game. (An historically based diorama is a possible exception.)

Tangentially, I do wonder why a lot of the graphically naughty minis are poorly done, with stiff, blocky poses and inaccurate anatomy. I'm sure they'll sell some due to the subject matter, but wouldn't well done figures sell even more?

For violence in minatures... I think I prefer a less is more approach. While I can usually appreciate whether or not skill was involved in creating a miniature with gouts of blood or oozing boils or whatever, I don't generally enjoy looking at them. I wouldn't purchase one, and would be unlikely to paint one myself. I've been dinged in the past for votes/scores on at least one mini for not putting blood where people expected it. I knew people would expect it, and I debated what to do about that for a while. Partly I didn't add it because I didn't feel skilled enough at the time, but partly it was because I just wouldn't enjoy painting it. (Especially since Tamiya clears make me physically ill, so no quick out on that one for me. ;->)

As far as violence in general goes, I think Brimshack makes an interesting point. A point that was also explored in a column in Computer Games this month. The columnist thought the ratings board had it backwards, and thinks that bloodless violence against nameless hordes of foes is far more desensitizing than a graphic, realistic depiction of violence would be. I think the counterargument of people concerned about desensitization is along these lines - yes, seeing realistic violence and its consequences once in a while is shocking and upsetting. To see it over and over again is what eventually causes desensitization.

[matty1001]

Nudity in minis doesnt bother me. EVen ones in pornographic poses just make me laugh, its 28mm for gods sake! I had a right little cheeky vixen witch model, lets just say she was 'airing her curtains', and i sent that to wiccanpony! (for obvious reasons!)

For violence, most miniature violence is quite cartoony IMO, and i have never seen a piece where i thought that is was over realistic and sikening, but then most films rarely do that to me. One thing i do hate is when babies are dropped on films and programs. Now THAT is horrible.

But then iv yet to see a mini where a baby has been dropped.

[EricJ]

there is very very little I have a problem with simply out of principle. My problem is when a subject matter is irresponsibly handled. If provocative imagery is used for no reason other than to provoke, no message involved. I'm not simply talking about violence and nudity, but also subjects like rape, religion, racism, etc... There is imagery associated with each, and ways to use that imagery to open peoples eyes and minds on many many subjects. So it's not the imagery itself that I might have a problem with, but rather how it's used.

So when I heard there was a rape scene depicted in Hellderado, I wasn't offended in principle, but I am definately suspicious if they had a real point, one other than "won't that be cool and piss people off, we're so extreme"

[supervike]

Interesting topic, and very interesting points of view.

Myself, I am a bit of a prude. Honestly. I can't help it. I am uncomfortable with movies that have very racy and graphic sex scenes. I'd prefer the 'old' hollywood standard of insinuating what is going on, instead of showing it all to me. My imagination can fill in the blanks. Maybe because I am the father of two girls who are fast approaching women-dom....But I don't think thats it. I've always been uncomfortable, even when watching alone.

I feel that way about minis too. Nudity just for the sake of nudity seems pointless to me....

Here is a perfect example...>This is a Darkson Design mini that is sold at convention (or given away if you order both sets)

(nudity)

https://www.fantization.com/Darkson_Designs/GERMANS/Raina.jpg

I like the mini, I like the concept, buy why is she topless? Makes absolutely no sense, and that becomes the focal point of the whole mini, ruining it INHO.

I've seen plenty of miniatures with nudity that don't really bother me...I guess its in the way it is presented....but some of the miniatures that are sold, to me, are just extensions of pornography. Not that I have a real moral objection to it, but they are what they are. I think of it as some middle aged man trying to 'justify' his porn by claiming its art....I know how narrow minded my view sounds, but that is what I think.

The hobby is hard enough to justify without making it seem even weirder in my opinion....

[green stuff]

So when I heard there was a rape scene depicted in Hellderado, I wasn't offended in principle, but I am definately suspicious if they had a real point, one other than "won't that be cool and piss people off, we're so extreme"

I might be wrong and I'll really have to check the graphic novel, but maybe they were making a paralelism with the conquistadors raping the indians. But like I said this needs some serious checking.

[wiccanpony]

I’m sure everyone knows how I stand on nudity, if not then you have been living under a rock.

Violence on the other hand does bother me, I remember as a teenager watching some of the most blood splattered gut twisting movies without batting an eyelash.

But today I just can’t stand them..to many innocents being slaughtered ( oh, that poor dog in JAWs), “TP”ing with yards of intestines etc., and no story plot at all...what kind of movie is that???

Yes Matty sent me the most tantalizing wench of a witch dressed in a witch hat, a broom, a garter belt and just a wicked smile. thank you Matty

[Guest Eastern Front Studios]

wow lots of great answers,.Vikey, I was suspecting the same thing you said..it probably strikes a nerve when we think how we would feel if it were our children or maybe more so if they are exposed to it..Im sure we all cringe when we hear of things going on in the real world..we probably dont want to be reminded of it in our hobbies.

.I do recall Tom Meier being censored when he did his orcs and balrog for Ral partha back in the late 70's early 80's sporting their male parts but now seems its pretty common.

I will admit we have a few topless minis also which I dont think are too over the top 2 of the 3 were done freeform((no concept, meaning 2 of the 3 were designed that way out of the sculptors head))and all sculpted in Europe. so then I have to ask myself are the sculptors in europe more open to nudity as its more common place...and look at it like more art then soft porn? for example: nude beaches commercials etc..where hear in the US I guess we havent reached that level of comfort yet..to me I just saw our Fathoms Deep line where the topless aspect was to be pretty common when it suited a mini..but do see your point Vikey on the german girl with no top..

I mean to me like eric said to draw attention and say piss on conformity we are going to be shock jocks of the mini world might bring you more headaches then fame.Helldorado has a amazing mini line so far I wouldnt want to jeopardize it with a few pics...stores and distributors may overlook it there but id dare say here it would be a world of difference.

Wiccanpony I agree I think when we get older our tastes change..we have one mini with a decapitated head..I didnt want the painter to go crazy on blood as gore wasnt the point.

[supervike]

I remember as a teenager watching some of the most blood splattered gut twisting movies without batting an eyelash.

They had movies back then? lol

Violence in movies I have mixed emotions about....Usually I feel the same way as the nudity...IE its more effective when it is alluded to, not shown....but when violence or gore is done in an almost cartoon fashion (like in movies like SLITHER) it doesn't bother me....Its akin to just trying to gross people out. However realistic violence is hard to watch....especially the new wave of Torture Porn movies that have come out (hostel, saw, etc.)

[Ritual]

@Mick

I guess in a way people are more comfortable with nudity here in Europe, but mainly I think in artistic circumstances. It's not like it's ok to walk around in the nude wherever you want to. We have nude beaches and they are marked as nude beaches. You can't walk around nude in just any beach (possibly top-less, but that is frowned upon by some).

In art, though, it's pretty accepted and not such a big deal. If there's nudity in films it's not for shock value and generally portraited in a more natural way than in most Hollywood productions. It's rare, for instance, to see these awkward camera angles and trickery that is supposed to enable nudity while still hiding nipples and genitalia. If someone's nude they're nude, period, no big deal! It's not even a problem to separate "artistic nudity" from pornography because most serious artist definitely DON'T want their work to be bundled together with porn (except for a few seeking shock value).

[Xenon_Wulf]

I dislike excessive violence. I still don't understand why sexuality should be more censored than violence. But one way or another, I don't like when either are gratuitous.

To me, rape is one of the more despicable things a human being can do to another (it rates up there with theft, maiming/crippling/torture, and a number of horrid things).

So when I heard there was a rape scene depicted in Hellderado, I wasn't offended in principle, but I am definately suspicious if they had a real point, one other than "won't that be cool and piss people off, we're so extreme"

I might be wrong and I'll really have to check the graphic novel, but maybe they were making a paralelism with the conquistadors raping the indians. But like I said this needs some serious checking.

To some extent, I suppose they ARE trying to shock, but yes, it also is a depiction of a european soldier doing the deed. The game does take place in hell, and it is, pretty much the worst of european soldiers and mercenaries of the time (the game takes place during the thirty-year war) unleashed in hell.

Yes, the european powers are invading and settling hell, making hell the New World, instead of America...

Is that image gratuitous? I believe so. Do I agree with its use? No. Do I have a word to say about what goes in the book? No.

[wiccanpony]

They had movies back then? lol

Violence in movies I have mixed emotions about....Usually I feel the same way as the nudity...IE its more effective when it is alluded to, not shown....but when violence or gore is done in an almost cartoon fashion (like in movies like SLITHER) it doesn't bother me....Its akin to just trying to gross people out. However realistic violence is hard to watch....especially the new wave of Torture Porn movies that have come out (hostel, saw, etc.)

!!!!!!! don't make me come over there and tie a knot in your shorts ;p

[matty1001]

To some extent, I suppose they ARE trying to shock, but yes, it also is a depiction of a european soldier doing the deed. The game does take place in hell, and it is, pretty much the worst of european soldiers and mercenaries of the time (the game takes place during the thirty-year war) unleashed in hell.

Then i am ok with that artwork as it has meaning. It has a certain meaning to me as art and that fits in with the rest of the background. Not just, as Eric said, in there to shock and look good.

[Brimshack]

I suspect minis are not the easiest medium with which to convey deeper meaning or ironic commentary on violence in history. I'm not saying it's impossible, just that it's a much tougher sale than say a movie or a book where you can manipulate more of the context behind the specific image. Learning more about what they are doing here makes it all seem much more interesting, but it'll take some serious credibility to pull off an image of rape without having it go down as morbid pornography. If they can pull off the message in question, more power to them.

[thewartoad]

I'm with most of you in this discussion...nudity doesn't bother me! My outlook on it is this...if it's done in good taste then people will admire it...if it's done poorly then people will scorn it. Just like everything else that's done that way it movies, media and music. Everybody has an opinion...and you all know what else is like that!!! I spent 10 yrs. in the Marine Corps fighting for freedom of every kind and if someone wants to sculpt it and you like it it...BUY IT! If not, then DON'T. End of story...everybody has free will. Cheers!

[Illustrange]

-->

"To me, rape is one of the more despicable things a human being can do to another (it rates up there with theft, maiming/crippling/torture, and a number of horrid things)."

agreed on rape.. but not on the others.. as I am generally openminded but explecitely hatefull on anything involving rape or other forced forms of sex I one time had to defend it.. the point is that people in general can *imagine* reasons doing the other *bad things* even in extremely unlikely situations most stuff up to torturing someone can be *explained* (say someone did something to your child, you might not do it but you'd certainly love to torture that person, or would not shudder to the idea.. even briefly.)

forced sex (that is any kind of sex were the other has no choice.) is the sole exception to this, nobody with a sane mind can ever come up with a good excuse for doing this, period.

what Im trying to say is that while I do think violence, theft and even murder are despicable they are nowhere near the same league as rape, not even a shadow of it really, but it says more about my opinion on rape than my opinion on the others really.

with that out of the way.

in art in all its forms and shapes I dont mind nudity, sex and violence, it doesnt even need an excuse imho, it can be that for the sake of being that. I dont care for a lot of it either so would pass on it, (wich I generally do with anything I dont like, for example to me a high elf miniature and a miniature in a sexual position are the same thing... waste of my money )

I do like the occasional nudity or exageration of the female (and lets face it, since not all men are built as conan sexism is equally, if not more, common on male miniatures too, but nobody is complaining there.)

as a matter of fact Im really annoyed by people's attitude toward nudity.. and it seems to be growing, its the clothes that are the unnatural accesoire, not the body.

female breasts and nipples while in shape and function different than men's are just that, breasts and nipples, something everybody has... same with genitals. they are not filthy disturbing things that should be secret, thats what been taught to us but its the teaching thats wrong, again, not the body. but because of the censorship and forbiddenness of things they suddenly become perversive etc. wich in me is a perversive way to think in the first place (considering that perversity is the opposite of what is natural.)

now Im not a nudist, nor showing my body around everywhere because Im raised in this obsessed culture, and while I dont mind others do, but if we hadnt made it seem so *wrong* in the first place, it would be a much better situation. a situation were bodily parts and genitals dont need to be associated with sex or *wrong* things.

in short, I think its Bad taste that nudity is ever been considered bad taste, and its even worse taste forcing to make this way of thinking even stronger (censorship.) for me its a way of thinking thats just as screwed up as thinking that women belong behind the dishes or that certain races should be slaves to other, we see these latter ones as wrong now, but the people living in that culture didnt see it as wrong, quite often they saw it as how it should be, and to change it was a perversity.

having said that, on the other hand... there's only so much variation and originality that can be achieved with nudity, so Id rather see 99% of the miniatures clothed and dressed up interestingly

first post in a while, and a long one too

[Mosch]

Let me play the devil's advocate for a while.

I don't care. You can make miniatures about ANYTHING and it won't offend me. I won't buy those I don't like but if someone else likes them, great, grab em. Nudity, sex, rape, it's completely OK and I won't speak out against it. You have sculpted a woman having sex with a horse and think the mini is nice? Good for you, but I won't buy it. Violence, spilling guts, a baby digging out his mother's brain with a rosty spork while stomping baby kittens, if you want to produce I'm OK with it. If I like it enough I'll buy it, if I don't like it I won't.

Now about that rape thing in Helldorado.. why not? It's hell, right? Hell is supposed to be a horrible place, rape is a horrible thing, there's your connection right there. Add dead babies too if you want. It's not as if the whole thing is just random.

Though I admit I have not followed Helldorade news and could not any illustration depicting rape on the Helldorade homepage. Anyone care to give me a link so I could be let in and see if it is really that bad?

Seriously, thinking about it, I think I'd buy it if it is going to be a mini (but as you lot know or have now realized I am very hard to offend and pretty much impossible to offend with sexual themes).

[matty1001]

Personally i think the male danglys are some of the funniest things around!