Use em as bait

[kiark]

Hi there.

I had a clampetts game yesterday and i was wondering about the "use em as bait" ability. When exactly does it trigger? The text says "comes into base contact". So if i drop a tide marker in base contact with an enemy model, it triggers, right? If i drop it between two enemy models, it can only trigger once, because it does only once per activation, right? And what if the enemy model starts its activation in bade contact with a tide marker, does ist trigger? Or does the enemy model have to "come" into base contact, like through movement oder a charge, push, etc?

 

Thanks in advance

[solkan]

On 6/18/2023 at 4:58 AM, kiark said:

Hi there.

I had a clampetts game yesterday and i was wondering about the "use em as bait" ability. When exactly does it trigger? The text says "comes into base contact". So if i drop a tide marker in base contact with an enemy model, it triggers, right?

 

Yes.  Note that this isn’t the same as how hazardous markers work, and that’s likely to surprise people.

On 6/18/2023 at 4:58 AM, kiark said:

If i drop it between two enemy models, it can only trigger once, because it does only once per activation, right?

Correct.  You have satisfied the ability’s precondition, but you have to choose at most one to resolve.
 

On 6/18/2023 at 4:58 AM, kiark said:

And what if the enemy model starts its activation in bade contact with a tide marker, does ist trigger? Or does the enemy model have to "come" into base contact, like through movement oder a charge, push, etc?

Starting in base contact isn’t “coming into base contact”, so nothing happens.  Again, this isn’t at all like hazardous markers work.

On 6/18/2023 at 4:58 AM, kiark said:

Thanks in advance

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

I don't think anyone can agree on how this works.  And any rulings for it have weird implications for Mcmourning2 desperate plot as well.

Some play it that dropping doesn't count, because the drop rules specify that when a marker is dropped there are no further game effects (or something like that).

[esqulax]

I find it extremely akward that this question has been out for so long with no clear answer from Wyrd

[kiark]

Well thanks for the answers, we just played it as solkan mentioned it.

It feels kinda awkward though. The clampetts have no real other card draw/discard mechanic than tide markers, and players that move around them make it impossible to use that mechanic at all. and when they engage with their heavy hitters the anglers seem to be too soft to withstand that. Maybe i just cant get my head around how the clampetts(fisherfolk) are supposed to work correctly.

 

i would love to see somebody play them on a high level, but there are no videos of a battlereport i can find anywhere

[santaclaws01]

On 6/19/2023 at 2:25 PM, solkan said:

 Again, this isn’t at all like hazardous markers work.

Sure about that?
 

Quote

Hazardous Terrain: After a model resolves any of the following, it suffers the effects of Hazardous Terrain after the current Action or Ability is resolved (to a maximum of once per Action or Ability)

[...]

• Moving into base contact with Hazardous Terrain

[...]

• After a Hazardous Terrain Marker is moved and comes into base contact with the model. The model moving the Marker may choose to ignore the Hazardous effects of the moved Marker.

 

[Adran]

5 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

Sure about that?
 

 

Well since use them as bait doesn't use the same wording, and has different things that trigger it, yes I would say that it isn't the same as hazardous markers. There is some overlap,  but they arent entirely the same. I'm not sure if Solkan is giving the right answer  but I am sure that there are differences in how it works and how hazardous markers work. 

 

Overall there has been 1 faq since the rules came out and that was very shortly after madness and before the models were out so based on the wyrd times, I'm not hugely surprised this hasn't been answered yet as I can see the confusion about dropping them, but only after the otherwise rarely read rule from the dropping rules is read, and I'm still slightly confused by the arguments that a marker that starts in base contact somehow " comes into base contact", so I would never have expected that to be a confusion. 

[santaclaws01]

3 hours ago, Adran said:

Well since use them as bait doesn't use the same wording, and has different things that trigger it

It does use the same wording though? And yes, hazardous has different things that trigger it, which is why I pruned it to the ones about coming into base contact. Sure, the "moving into base contact" is different words, but any time a model changes position on the table it moves, and it is about a model moving and not the hazardous terrain moving(as that is covered later), so there is no functional difference between "Model moves into base contact" and "Model moves and comes into base contact"

The only part that could arguably function different from how hazardous works is with dropping markers. Dropping a hazardous marker definitionally doesn't work because drop isn't a move. Use 'em as bait doesn't restrict it to just movement, but it also doesn't necessarily contradict that core rule of no game effects happen on a marker dropping(Drop and Create, pg28)

Also, to the bit about what I was responding to from Solkan. I have no idea how he thinks the rest of the question he responded to works. He answered for starting an activation in base contact, and then for the rest just said "it's not how hazardous works", even though in any instance of a model or marker moving, it is exactly how hazardous works.

[Adran]

17 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

It does use the same wording though? And yes, hazardous has different things that trigger it, which is why I pruned it to the ones about coming into base contact. Sure, the "moving into base contact" is different words, but any time a model changes position on the table it moves, and it is about a model moving and not the hazardous terrain moving(as that is covered later), so there is no functional difference between "Model moves into base contact" and "Model moves and comes into base contact"

The only part that could arguably function different from how hazardous works is with dropping markers. Dropping a hazardous marker definitionally doesn't work because drop isn't a move. Use 'em as bait doesn't restrict it to just movement, but it also doesn't necessarily contradict that core rule of no game effects happen on a marker dropping(Drop and Create, pg28)
 

I'm pretty sure changing height doesn't count as moving, so if you were to fall off you aren't moving. So that wouldn't cause hazardous but would cause use em as bait. (If you did the action that caused you to fall then it would be during resolving the action, but if you are pushed off by someone else then you are ok at that point). 

 

[santaclaws01]

6 minutes ago, Adran said:

I'm pretty sure changing height doesn't count as moving, so if you were to fall off you aren't moving. So that wouldn't cause hazardous but would cause use em as bait. (If you did the action that caused you to fall then it would be during resolving the action, but if you are pushed off by someone else then you are ok at that point). 

 

From Movement:

"Any time something changes location or is affected by a movement effect, it is considered to have moved(even if it moved 0")". Falling is definitely changing location.

[Adran]

6 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

From Movement:

"Any time something changes location or is affected by a movement effect, it is considered to have moved(even if it moved 0")". Falling is definitely changing location.

I'm not sure it is changing location, since measuring is done top down. ( Plus that is the only way I can avoid the possibility of floating dinosaurs in the rules). 

[santaclaws01]

45 minutes ago, Adran said:

I'm not sure it is changing location, since measuring is done top down. ( Plus that is the only way I can avoid the possibility of floating dinosaurs in the rules). 

It's not always done top down. If it was then climbing would not work, you wouldn't be able to measure how far you fell for falling damage, drawing how height affects range would work completely differently.

The single weird niche instance of a malisaurus rex standing on destructible terrain that gets removed while it has territorial active hardly seems like a big enough issue to try and say falling isn't movement despite fitting the definition of movement in the rules.

[Adran]

6 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

It's not always done top down. If it was then climbing would not work, you wouldn't be able to measure how far you fell for falling damage, drawing how height affects range would work completely differently.

The single weird niche instance of a malisaurus rex standing on destructible terrain that gets removed while it has territorial active hardly seems like a big enough issue to try and say falling isn't movement despite fitting the definition of movement in the rules.

We're well off topic, so I'm going to leave the topic alone,  but I personally say that falling doesn't have to fit the definition of movement and nothing breaks if it isn't movement ( and there is probably only the falling into Hazardous terrain and the territorial ability that have different outcomes if it isn't ). 

[kiark]

So, when will Wyrd answer that question?

 

My Clampetts are waiting!!

[Adran]

3 hours ago, kiark said:

So, when will Wyrd answer that question?

 

My Clampetts are waiting!!

Hopefully in the next faq, but we don't know when that is . 

If it were me I'd play them with the least effect of use em asbait, because it's easier for me to learn new things for a buff than forget rhinfs from a nerf.  

Either could work, Just clarify with your opponent before the game so you both are playing with the same rules