Titania, Autumn Queen. Feasibility of Area Control/ Denial list.

[Autumn King]

Usually, when we watch Titania get played, she is often accompanied by a random cadre of big monsters (Mysterious Emissary, Malisaurus Rex, Marcus, or even sometimes Nekima). Which is great fun, but I have been trying to branch out.

Well, recently I have been trying to move away from the more typical "Big Monster Melee list."  I began wondering if she even needs to run heavy defense and combat to win. I began to try running Titania 2 almost entirely built around Area control and Denial, and I have even been seeing a good amount of sucess.

 

Area Denial: 

I spend most my offensive actions with the sole intent to deny my opponents positioning or the opportunity to engage me. I treat the damage as an incidental benefit to the movement. The team really bogs down enemy movement, and then makes them waste actions on retaking ground that you moved them from.  Ideally, you keep them constantly out of position making it nearly impossible for them to score.

-I Spam Underbrush markers, more the better. Gums up enemy movement and creates bottle necks.  Is essential for "Into Thorns."

-The whole team has lots of "Into Thorns" for bonus damage, but more importantly Enemy placement to an Underbrush marker within 2 inches (can be a 4+ inch move).  Aeslin and Titania's Champion upgrade gives great easy access to this trigger. 

-"Intimidating Roar" on the Rougarou has an 8" range and pushes the model 6" and gives minions slow.  This is done preferable on a model that will end up in Underbrush and get stuck there with slow. Additionally, early game my Rougarou can roar my own models giving them a free 6" move per action for better early positioning.

-The Autumn Queen has "The Third Law," which gives her a 10" attack that causes stunned and injured which can be targeted from Titania or one of her Champions. The attack then has two triggers, "Into thorns" as discussed above and "Beckon" which pushes the model 4" toward the Autumn Queen or one of her champions. 

-Aeslin's "Decay" attack has an 8" range with a built in "Into Thorns" trigger.  Probably the teams most powerful area denial.  I use her to screen enemy beaters and deny them any access to the game. 

-The team also has a spattering of enemy movement from their attacks.  Rougarou have a built in 2" movement from their melee.  Autumn Queen has a built in 2" push into her 6" "Bloody Command " attack (which can even be targeted from her champions). Waldgeists have "Heave" a 3 inch place on their Melee.  Additionally, almost every model in the list has "Into Thorns" on some attack.

 

Area Control:

Waldgeist and the Mysterious Emissary both have "Planted Roots," meaning they cannot be moved by enemy effects, like you are moving the enemy models.

Autumn Knights are tough, they are great hosts for the champion upgrade, and good at holding forward positions for any models who do make it through the underbrush.

Rougarou are used for your early game positioning, used for mid game enemy area denial, and usually late game scheming.

Erymanthian Boar tends to be my primary schemer, and occasional surprise beater.

Both Titania and Aeslin tend to be pretty stationary once they get to a position where they can area control large areas of the battlefield.  Autumn Queen also assists with overall movemant and positioning with her "Royal Escort."

 

Any thoughts?

Has anybody else tried anything similar?

What are your successes and failures with this kind of idea?

Thoughts on the Kurgan.

[Roadhouse]

So I got a bunch of reps with T2 when she was initially spoiled and I think you're on the right track with playing her as a control/denial master. Tons of offensive movement stuff and Stunned while absolutely flooding the board with Underbrush and having unassailable Autumn Knights. Its a strong plan, but you really need to have a good grasp of what your opponent is going to be bringing. This playstyle is really weak into things that aren't bothered by the terrain, can remove it, or don't intend to interact with you at all.

Its a niche that T2 lives in happily, but has some really bad matchups.

Consider Hildegard with her, speeds up Aeslin, draws a card, makes non concealment ignoring ranged attacks absolutely trash against your tree fort.

[SEV]

Interesting. Area control is definitely a thing in Malifaux (not sure T2 is the best at it, but your thinking seems sound)... Area Denial not really. It's so easy to counter, a lot of crew don't even care about it and it's hard to setup. I wouldn't bother.

T2 may still be a control master... And it's probably why she's weak. It's so hard to play control in this game...

[Autumn King]

14 hours ago, Roadhouse said:

So I got a bunch of reps with T2 when she was initially spoiled and I think you're on the right track with playing her as a control/denial master. Tons of offensive movement stuff and Stunned while absolutely flooding the board with Underbrush and having unassailable Autumn Knights. Its a strong plan, but you really need to have a good grasp of what your opponent is going to be bringing. This playstyle is really weak into things that aren't bothered by the terrain, can remove it, or don't intend to interact with you at all.

Its a niche that T2 lives in happily, but has some really bad matchups.

Consider Hildegard with her, speeds up Aeslin, draws a card, makes non concealment ignoring ranged attacks absolutely trash against your tree fort.

I agree with knowing the team you are playing, as teams with lots of incorporeal, flight, and unimpeded will surely limit the success of the area denial,

[Autumn King]

6 hours ago, SEV said:

Interesting. Area control is definitely a thing in Malifaux (not sure T2 is the best at it, but your thinking seems sound)... Area Denial not really. It's so easy to counter, a lot of crew don't even care about it and it's hard to setup. I wouldn't bother.

T2 may still be a control master... And it's probably why she's weak. It's so hard to play control in this game...

Like I said, I have had quite a bit of success so far with the area denial.  Truely, it will be difficult with some teams, but have found it overpowering against others.  I played A Hoff 2 list not too far back, and he only got one model out of his starting quarter.  I denied him the ability to even play the game.  Hoff 2 could not "bulldoze" enough underbrush to escape the constant "Into Thorns" triggers I was throwing at him. He was forced to waste action after action, never getting to a place where he could score effectively.  He could not use his large beaters, because I would not let him.

I would say, I am finding greater success right now in the denial, not the area control, even though they go hand in hand.  Points are made by where your models are, and it is so easy to throw models out of place with underbrush and "Into Thorns."  Big enemy beaters have proven to be wasted stones for my opponents at this point.  The control and denial both play so well into each other.

[Maniacal_cackle]

7 hours ago, SEV said:

Interesting. Area control is definitely a thing in Malifaux (not sure T2 is the best at it, but your thinking seems sound)... Area Denial not really. It's so easy to counter, a lot of crew don't even care about it and it's hard to setup. I wouldn't bother.

T2 may still be a control master... And it's probably why she's weak. It's so hard to play control in this game...

*ears perk up*

But yeah, I think that marker-based control tends to be pretty weak, at least in the vassal meta.

The vassal meta has boards that heavily incentivize being able to bypass terrain, and so people will bring crews prepared to bypass terrain even before they see you're declaring Titania.

[Autumn King]

37 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

*ears perk up*

But yeah, I think that marker-based control tends to be pretty weak, at least in the vassal meta.

The vassal meta has boards that heavily incentivize being able to bypass terrain, and so people will bring crews prepared to bypass terrain even before they see you're declaring Titania.

I can't speak to its effectiveness in Vassal, as I don't play it.  It does not surprise me that it would be more difficult.

I tend to stagger additional underbrush, also in a secondary line to assist my front line of underbrush.  Even with models that bypass both layers of underbrush, they will find themselves in a position where I can still throw them back into the underbrush with "Into thorns" and other attacks.  I can often even use a chain of "Into Thorns" to move them back multiple underbrush markers, if my bottlenecks are set up properly.

When models have fully punched through and are not at any risk of being "Into Thorns'd," they will often find themselves isolated from the rest of their team.  I will usually jump on those models and kill them while they have no support.  Rougarou are good for this, as they are fast and can react to new threats quickly.  Additionally, when Championed they can really hit like a truck.

[Roadhouse]

I don't think your Hoff2 opponent was a good test case. Titania2 isn't good vs Arm 2, in guild Hoff has access to unimpeded horsebois as well as LLC to stop your offensive movement and in arc hes got Steam Arachnid Swarms and Diesel Engine to give concealment, which Titania2 doesn't ignore, though if they didn't see 2 coming they probably don't bring DE.

In either faction he has unimpeded Langston and Bulldoze absolutely ruins the Underbrush denial.

What seems likely to me is your opponent did not anticipate the need to bring the tools to deal with the UB and was punished for it. They're unlikely to make the same mistake and will have better success the next go around.

[Autumn King]

8 hours ago, Roadhouse said:

I don't think your Hoff2 opponent was a good test case. Titania2 isn't good vs Arm 2, in guild Hoff has access to unimpeded horsebois as well as LLC to stop your offensive movement and in arc hes got Steam Arachnid Swarms and Diesel Engine to give concealment, which Titania2 doesn't ignore, though if they didn't see 2 coming they probably don't bring DE.

In either faction he has unimpeded Langston and Bulldoze absolutely ruins the Underbrush denial.

What seems likely to me is your opponent did not anticipate the need to bring the tools to deal with the UB and was punished for it. They're unlikely to make the same mistake and will have better success the next go around.

I wasn't to concerned about his armor, as my goal was to avoid any major fights with the denial.  And his low speed, outside of Hunters worked against him. He definitely did not anticipate what level of underbrush I was bringing.  He did use Bulldoze to clear his path, but I was able to get in and underbrush behind Hoff.  Hoff found himself isolated, I then jumped on him.  In the end, Hoff is one model with marker removal, nearly my whole team could place underbrush.

He poorly teched for what I brought.  He expected monsters, and got lots of underbrush instead. Langston and riders would have been very useful for him, but he did not take him.

[Roadhouse]

17 hours ago, Autumn King said:

He poorly teched for what I brought.  He expected monsters, and got lots of underbrush instead. Langston and riders would have been very useful for him, but he did not take him.

Beating unprepared opponents in this game is easy, Dora and Daw absolutely slaughter unprepared lists, continuing to win when your game plan is known is much harder.

[Autumn King]

10 hours ago, Roadhouse said:

Beating unprepared opponents in this game is easy, Dora and Daw absolutely slaughter unprepared lists, continuing to win when your game plan is known is much harder.

Very true, but having access to multiple ways to run a master should be able to keep an opponent guessing.  Forcing them to occasionally over tech or under tech based on the circumstance.  Plus giving yourself more variety to avoid allowing your teams to go stale.  Don't think I am arguing this is better then the classic Elite Heavy Titania list, but it is new and emphasises in a different aspect of her game play.

[Funinyourgame]

Since we are talking about Titania, I was wondering about her Abundant Growth ability

Similar to Mah tucket, a few members of her crew can place Underbush markers, anywhere on the board. However, unlike Mah tucket, there is nothing preventing the ability to place underbush directly in the deployement zone or directly in front of it.

Does it mean she could (Depending on the deployement) create some nasty choak points right in front of you? Sounds like an oversight IMO

[Adran]

36 minutes ago, Funinyourgame said:

Since we are talking about Titania, I was wondering about her Abundant Growth ability

Similar to Mah tucket, a few members of her crew can place Underbush markers, anywhere on the board. However, unlike Mah tucket, there is nothing preventing the ability to place underbush directly in the deployement zone or directly in front of it.

Does it mean she could (Depending on the deployement) create some nasty choak points right in front of you? Sounds like an oversight IMO

There are 2 things, firstly, you can't easily place an undergrowth marker close enough to another one that a model couldn't fit between them. You can move them closer later, but its not going to completely block an area. The other thing is that you know that you are going to face Titania and if you can hire models that ignore severe you walk through them as normal. Even if you can't ignore it, it's at its very worst, an extra 10 cm movement if you're a 50 mm base and you cross at the widest point. That's typically less than 1 actions worth of move it has cost you. 

( that said its probably a bad idea to make a board that only has 1 narrow exit to a deployment area in general. And if the fae crew is putting a lot of its undergrowth in a enemies deployement then it's missing out on being able to use them in the middle game when the crews typically meet to fight). 

[Hawkoon]

Even though it is possible for a Titania player to place underbrush in and around the opponents deployment, it's not really a clever move. Most of the fae keyword have use for them in on way or another, and they won't be able to make much use of them that far up the board. I tend to place mine around the centerline where I expect the most action.

[Funinyourgame]

I get that it is a bad move and that making a narrow path is very unlikely (If it happens at all)

I was mainly wondering why there is a difference between Mah Tucket and Titania, in regards of marker placement limitation, at the start of the game.

[Adran]

32 minutes ago, Funinyourgame said:

 

I was mainly wondering why there is a difference between Mah Tucket and Titania, in regards of marker placement limitation, at the start of the game.

Mainly because the markers do different things ( both hazardous and destructible make a huge difference on the effect the terrain will have and how the opponent will want to deal with it)and the crews use them in different ways, so there is different things to consider, not least the tricksy crew can deploy only 4 at the beginning of the game,  where as fae can reach 9 if they really wanted to.

[Autumn King]

 

On 10/9/2022 at 9:58 AM, Hawkoon said:

Even though it is possible for a Titania player to place underbrush in and around the opponents deployment, it's not really a clever move. Most of the fae keyword have use for them in on way or another, and they won't be able to make much use of them that far up the board. I tend to place mine around the centerline where I expect the most action.

I agree.  I generally play them in bottle necks on the battlefield where I can really slow down and manipulate the enemy's movements and placement. I will also place them anywhere I know the "fight" is going to be, generally around the centerline.