Hidden Ledger and Mind Games timing

[regleant]

I want to be sure I understand the timing of Mind Games trigger, correctly. 

• Hidden Ledger: Reveal the top seven cards of the opposing player's Fate Deck and discard all cards of any one suit. Then shuffle remaining cards back into the Fate Deck.
• Mind Games: When resolving, set aside up to three revealed cards. After shuffling the Fate Deck, place the set-aside cards back on top in any order.

If I were to flip over (for a simple example) 13,12,7,2,8,4,1The steps would be as follows:

• Since the Trigger is "While Resolving", I can first set aside the 3 cards for Mind Games, meaning 2,4,1.
• Then I may choose Masks to be discarded.
• The 8is the only card that is shuffled back into the deck
• 2,4,1 are placed on top.

 

My opponent was not confident that this was correct, because normally Hidden Ledger text would need to resolve, first, which is selecting the suit (), which would include the 2and send it to the discard rather than on top of the Fate Deck. But by that logic, the Mind Games "set cards aside" would have to happen after shuffling, which makes no sense.

 

Confirmation? Thanks! 

[TheUnseemlyOne]

I think the issue is that when “when resolving” triggers add an effect, the added effects are resolved last unless stated other wise, per pg 12. 
 

By that, I would think that you would discard all cards of the chosen suit first. 

[regleant]

3 hours ago, TheUnseemlyOne said:

I think the issue is that when “when resolving” triggers add an effect, the added effects are resolved last unless stated other wise, per pg 12. 
 

By that, I would think that you would discard all cards of the chosen suit first. 

The problem with this logic, is that if you complete all of the steps to Hidden Ledger first, there are no cards to set aside for Mind Games to resolve.

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

Mind Games is modifying the effects of the action and not adding a new effect to the action, so the trigger is not resolved after Hidden Ledgers text. If Mind Games is supposed to be after discarding, the trigger should specify that timing. As such, anything modifying/affecting the revealed cards should be resolved prior to suit selection. After discarding would involve the use of “set aside up to three of the remaining cards” similar to the shuffle effect.

[TheUnseemlyOne]

18 hours ago, regleant said:

The problem with this logic, is that if you complete all of the steps to Hidden Ledger first, there are no cards to set aside for Mind Games to resolve.

Not really.  That’s where the “unless stated otherwise” bit would come in.  “After shuffling the Fate Deck, place the set-aside cards…” would indicate you’re shuffling after setting the cards aside. 
 

That might just me being overly literal with the reading though. The other way makes more sense from a functionality standpoint. 

[regleant]

1 hour ago, TheUnseemlyOne said:

Not really.  That’s where the “unless stated otherwise” bit would come in.  “After shuffling the Fate Deck, place the set-aside cards…” would indicate you’re shuffling after setting the cards aside. 
 

That might just me being overly literal with the reading though. The other way makes more sense from a functionality standpoint. 

Please follow this logic through. You've discerned that the deck must be shuffled prior to placing the set-aside cards on top. But you stated first all of the cards of the chosen suit would be discarded. In what part of the timing rules do you discern that first you perform Hidden Ledger to choose a suit and discard them, then interject Mind Games to set aside 3 cards, then go back to Hidden Ledger to shuffle, then go back to Mind Games to place the set-aside cards on top?

.... as opposed to first setting aside 3 cards, then choosing a suit? 

It's a frustratingly written rule, especially the way "when resolving" is written:

• When resolving: These Triggers resolve with the Action’s effects (Step 5 of Action timing). These Triggers, depending on effect, may modify the effects of the Action as listed or add a new effect, so they only occur if the Action was successful. Any new effects are resolved last, unless the Trigger specifies otherwise.

 

So I have to look at a "Rules as intended" to make this functionally smooth, and after revealing the top 7 cards, there and then set aside my 3 cards with Mind Games.

[TheUnseemlyOne]

4 hours ago, regleant said:

Please follow this logic through. You've discerned that the deck must be shuffled prior to placing the set-aside cards on top. But you stated first all of the cards of the chosen suit would be discarded. In what part of the timing rules do you discern that first you perform Hidden Ledger to choose a suit and discard them, then interject Mind Games to set aside 3 cards, then go back to Hidden Ledger to shuffle, then go back to Mind Games to place the set-aside cards on top?

.... as opposed to first setting aside 3 cards, then choosing a suit? 

It's a frustratingly written rule, especially the way "when resolving" is written:

• When resolving: These Triggers resolve with the Action’s effects (Step 5 of Action timing). These Triggers, depending on effect, may modify the effects of the Action as listed or add a new effect, so they only occur if the Action was successful. Any new effects are resolved last, unless the Trigger specifies otherwise.

 

So I have to look at a "Rules as intended" to make this functionally smooth, and after revealing the top 7 cards, there and then set aside my 3 cards with Mind Games.

I have followed my logic through, but perhaps I wasn’t clear. The “After shuffling the Fate Deck, place the set-aside cards…” line is an awkwardly worded instance of “specifying otherwise” that the shuffling happens after the cards are set aside.  

So I think the most literal way to read this in the context of the rules is to reveal the cards, discard the cards of the chosen suit, set three aside, shuffle, then put the three back in any order.

I won’t say I think it was necessarily meant to play this way and I agree with you that the rule not written as clearly as it could have been in the context of some triggers. 
 

[solkan]

You’re supposed to use common sense.  

Mind Game says to put aside up to three of the revealed cards, that obviously has to be done before they’ve been discarded.  (And instead of them getting shuffled back into the deck…)

 

[TheUnseemlyOne]

8 hours ago, solkan said:

You’re supposed to use common sense.  

Mind Game says to put aside up to three of the revealed cards, that obviously has to be done before they’ve been discarded.  (And instead of them getting shuffled back into the deck…)

 

The problem with saying “use common sense” is that it can lead people to different conclusions. The only thing that would cause an issue with setting three cards aside after discarding all of one suit is if nearly all of the seven cards were of the same suit.

I’m more than willing to change my opinion if anyone can point out an issue with my reasoning. 

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

1 hour ago, TheUnseemlyOne said:

I’m more than willing to change my opinion if anyone can point out an issue with my reasoning. 

Your reasoning is based on Mind Games adding an effect, which it does not do. Mind games is modifying Hidden Ledger’s effect and does not resolve after Hidden Ledger’s text.

If a trigger is adding an effect, the trigger will only resolve after the action’s text is completely resolved unless explicitly stated otherwise with the “Immediately” (or similar) vernacular. See Basse’s Sand Worm trigger. You’ve cherry picked a mixture of modifying the action and adding a new effect to set aside cards after discard.

[TheUnseemlyOne]

52 minutes ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

Your reasoning is based on Mind Games adding an effect, which it does not do. Mind games is modifying Hidden Ledger’s effect and does not resolve after Hidden Ledger’s text.

If a trigger is adding an effect, the trigger will only resolve after the action’s text is completely resolved unless explicitly stated otherwise with the “Immediately” (or similar) vernacular. See Basse’s Sand Worm trigger. You’ve cherry picked a mixture of modifying the action and adding a new effect to set aside cards after discard.

Setting the cards aside is an effect that is being added. Examples that modify an effect would be triggers like Glancing Shot, Lingering Fears, Lasting Flames, etc. Those all say “When Resolving, instead of X, do Y.”

Basse’s Sand Worm trigger is an Immediately trigger, not a When Resolving one, so it isn’t relevant here.

Mind Games is adding an effect, and it seems to read intuitively until you take it into the context of the When Resolving triggers wording in the rule book.

I think this is probably a case of not well thought out wording in the context of the Trigger Timing that it falls under, but as it’s written, it is adding an effect. 

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

A new effect would be one independent of the Actions text, Mind games is not. You can either treat Mind Games as modifying the action’s effect or as an added effect. The issue with the latter is that it does nothing when resolved after the actions text. There is no timing stated in Mind Games, so you can’t just choose your own timing if resolving as a new effect.

Instead of X do Y is one example of modifying the action, but “instead” is not the end all be all. Critial Strike modifies the action for example. The key thing is that if the trigger can resolve in a vaccum it is a new effect, but if the text is dependent on the action’s effect it is modifying the action.

[TheUnseemlyOne]

1 hour ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

A new effect would be one independent of the Actions text, Mind games is not. You can either treat Mind Games as modifying the action’s effect or as an added effect. The issue with the latter is that it does nothing when resolved after the actions text. There is no timing stated in Mind Games, so you can’t just choose your own timing if resolving as a new effect.

 

This is the strongest reasoning so far, so thanks for that.  As I said above, it wouldn’t do nothing, and I’ve stated why I think so.

1 hour ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

Instead of X do Y is one example of modifying the action, but “instead” is not the end all be all. Critial Strike modifies the action for example.

I agree. 

1 hour ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

The key thing is that if the trigger can resolve in a vaccum it is a new effect, but if the text is dependent on the action’s effect it is modifying the action.

This would completely undermine my position if you have something in the rules to support it. Can you point me to something?

 

 

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

Reasonable assumption. I think it is more reasonable to assume that Mind Games is modifying the affect vs assuming Mind Games is adding a new effect which requires an assumption of unspecified timing to work correctly. The first is simpler and requires less assumptions, giving it more credence to being correct. 

[TheUnseemlyOne]

I disagree. I explained how I thought the timing would work and why, within the rules, as an added effect.

Even if I granted that it was a modifying effect for the sake of argument, you’re assuming when the cards are set aside, as there is nothing actually noting when that would happen. The only thing I’ve seen put forth for the timing as a modifying effect are “common sense” and “reasonable assumption.”

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

5 hours ago, TheUnseemlyOne said:

I disagree. I explained how I thought the timing would work and why, within the rules, as an added effect.

Your explanation doesn’t make sense based on how added effects from triggers resolve. Not from a you didn’t explain it well enough, but from a “unless  otherwise stated” is not explicitly stated in the trigger.

[TheUnseemlyOne]

1 hour ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

Your explanation doesn’t make sense based on how added effects from triggers resolve. Not from a you didn’t explain it well enough, but from a “unless  otherwise stated” is not explicitly stated in the trigger.

I believe it does make sense.  The general rule for the timing says the added effect goes last.  The special rule states that the set aside cards are placed on top of the deck after shuffling.  This tells us indirectly that the cards are set aside before shuffling.  It’s clunky wording, but it’s there.

Your position that it’s a modify effect makes no sense within the context of the rules.

To start with, you used a definition for a new effect that is neither defined or supported within the rules. That makes your assertion that it’s a modify effect somewhat dubious.

Mind Games is clearly adding a new effect by setting aside cards and allowing them to be replaced later. 

New effect triggers give a timing, which is admittedly a bit janky in this case, but it gives us something to work from. Modify effect triggers have no general indication on timing. If this is a modify effect trigger, we can only assume when the cards are set aside.

Is it the first thing you do? We’d both agree that doesn’t make sense. It’s the same problem for the last thing as well. Does it happen immediately after the cards are revealed?  Or after the chosen suit is discarded?  Both of those options are functionally valid times for it to happen.  How do you choose, within the guidelines of the rules?

So this is a new effect trigger.  A poorly worded one, but it is adding a new effect to the action. 

[Adran]

21 hours ago, TheUnseemlyOne said:

This is the strongest reasoning so far, so thanks for that.  As I said above, it wouldn’t do nothing, and I’ve stated why I think so.

I agree. 

This would completely undermine my position if you have something in the rules to support it. Can you point me to something?

 

 

It has to be modifying an effect. If you just read it alone it makes no sense.  It only works as part of the already existing effect.

That doesn't really help with the timing, as there are two sensible options, straight after you reveal the cards, as its something that happens to revealed cards, or just before you put the revealed cards in the deck to shuffle, as once you shuffle you can't really put them aside. 

[TheUnseemlyOne]

6 hours ago, Adran said:

It has to be modifying an effect. If you just read it alone it makes no sense.  It only works as part of the already existing effect.

 

There’s nothing that requires an added needs to work on its own though. 

[Adran]

1 hour ago, TheUnseemlyOne said:

There’s nothing that requires an added needs to work on its own though. 

I guess that depends on how you want to try and split adding a new effect and modifying an existing one. To my mind an effect needs to work, so if you add a new effect it needs to be entirely self sufficient. If the thing you are adding relies on what you are already doing, it's modifying the existing effects. ( although it's possible for a modification to be self sufficient)

[TheUnseemlyOne]

46 minutes ago, Adran said:

I guess that depends on how you want to try and split adding a new effect and modifying an existing one. To my mind an effect needs to work, so if you add a new effect it needs to be entirely self sufficient. If the thing you are adding relies on what you are already doing, it's modifying the existing effects. ( although it's possible for a modification to be self sufficient)

This I why it’s unfortunate that these terms aren’t defined in the rule book or that this trigger isn’t worded differently. Because we have example triggers listed above that are unambiguously examples of modified and the definition you seem to be using works for things that are added without changing the initial effect.

Here we have an instance where an effect was clearly added, but in a way that modified the original action, but not any individual effects of the action.

I still think if you treat it as a modify effect, there is no way to really justify where this would happen, as there is no general giving a timing on this. Unless you can point out something I’ve missed.

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

'When resolving' triggers are in a fuzzy space where you have to resolve whenever makes sense, as they all have different quirks.

So I think for this one you just need to agree with your opponent/TO. I don't think you'll get a clear result in the rules.