Silent Ones

[Jordon]

Many may disagree but I think these ladies might need some adjusting. I see them taken OOK all the time, usually in place of other in-keyword healing options. It hurts my brain to see them constantly taken with Kaeris over Firebranded. It used to be the soul stone miner that was the the "always" pick but now I feel Silent Ones are taking over. 

So for me it comes down to whether they're too good all around or whether they are fine in keyword and maybe just need some restrictions to keep them a little more keyword focused. While I don't claim to be a competitive gamer, I can understand why they seem so attractive. 

Unlike Raspy who relies on her triggers, the Silent Ones don't really see the same restrictive grip with Ice Mirror. They can sit back, plop down pillars and support the entire crew from relative safety. Healing is universally valuable and the pillars themselves can be handy in slowing down the opposing crew. 

While I do think they are the MVP for Raspy, they don't seem over the top in December crew. That might be because the December keyword struggles so much, however. Raspy2 can summon them which is obviously great and doesn't help when trying to factor in balance. It's probably too early to really know their place in Raspy2 crews. 

So until Raspy1 gets some kind of help I'd be hesitant to call for any kind of nerf to the Silent One. What might help, however, would be to tie their healing to December models. That way Raspy crews are more or less in tact, but maybe other crews might have to think harder about their inclusion OOK. 

I imagine others will have strong opinions on a change like this but I'm interested in hearing other peoples thoughts. Are Silent Ones too good? Are you seeing them taken OOK often? 

[Plaag]

11 hours ago, Jordon said:

Many may disagree but I think these ladies might need some adjusting. I see them taken OOK all the time, usually in place of other in-keyword healing options. It hurts my brain to see them constantly taken with Kaeris over Firebranded. It used to be the soul stone miner that was the the "always" pick but now I feel Silent Ones are taking over. 

So for me it comes down to whether they're too good all around or whether they are fine in keyword and maybe just need some restrictions to keep them a little more keyword focused. While I don't claim to be a competitive gamer, I can understand why they seem so attractive. 

Unlike Raspy who relies on her triggers, the Silent Ones don't really see the same restrictive grip with Ice Mirror. They can sit back, plop down pillars and support the entire crew from relative safety. Healing is universally valuable and the pillars themselves can be handy in slowing down the opposing crew. 

While I do think they are the MVP for Raspy, they don't seem over the top in December crew. That might be because the December keyword struggles so much, however. Raspy2 can summon them which is obviously great and doesn't help when trying to factor in balance. It's probably too early to really know their place in Raspy2 crews. 

So until Raspy1 gets some kind of help I'd be hesitant to call for any kind of nerf to the Silent One. What might help, however, would be to tie their healing to December models. That way Raspy crews are more or less in tact, but maybe other crews might have to think harder about their inclusion OOK. 

I imagine others will have strong opinions on a change like this but I'm interested in hearing other peoples thoughts. Are Silent Ones too good? Are you seeing them taken OOK often? 

they are just good healers in arcanists and not each keyword have this

firebranded need some restrictions -low range and burn condition, they can die easy

manequens are just not good for support, cannt heal any model, duet can heal very well, but nobody can heal him

sandeep and tony have no so good healing in keyword

also silent one is the safest minion in arcanists to give mt

she is not op-just very good and safe model

[dancater]

On 12/31/2021 at 9:43 AM, Jordon said:

Many may disagree but I think these ladies might need some adjusting. I see them taken OOK all the time, usually in place of other in-keyword healing options. It hurts my brain to see them constantly taken with Kaeris over Firebranded. It used to be the soul stone miner that was the the "always" pick but now I feel Silent Ones are taking over. 

So for me it comes down to whether they're too good all around or whether they are fine in keyword and maybe just need some restrictions to keep them a little more keyword focused. While I don't claim to be a competitive gamer, I can understand why they seem so attractive. 

Unlike Raspy who relies on her triggers, the Silent Ones don't really see the same restrictive grip with Ice Mirror. They can sit back, plop down pillars and support the entire crew from relative safety. Healing is universally valuable and the pillars themselves can be handy in slowing down the opposing crew. 

While I do think they are the MVP for Raspy, they don't seem over the top in December crew. That might be because the December keyword struggles so much, however. Raspy2 can summon them which is obviously great and doesn't help when trying to factor in balance. It's probably too early to really know their place in Raspy2 crews. 

So until Raspy1 gets some kind of help I'd be hesitant to call for any kind of nerf to the Silent One. What might help, however, would be to tie their healing to December models. That way Raspy crews are more or less in tact, but maybe other crews might have to think harder about their inclusion OOK. 

I imagine others will have strong opinions on a change like this but I'm interested in hearing other peoples thoughts. Are Silent Ones too good? Are you seeing them taken OOK often? 

I agree, the issue is (1) Silent Ones are a shade too good (2) Some other keywords have similar role models (eg Firebrands) which are a shade underpowered and (3) the Frozen Heart keyword and especially Raspy-1 are a bit of a mess.

The solution is both simple, fix the issues above, and complex, it is multiple issues.

1. So Silent Ones need to be, slightly, nerfed, maybe a trigger or even a slight change which makes their current play more keyword dependent - say a restriction on their healing of non Frozen Heart models. 
2. Firebrands (along with a limited selection of other models [Molemen]) need a buff to bring sadly lagging models up to par, both the Silent One and Medical Automaton are better choices as healers in Wildfire than a Firebrand even with the OOK tax, which tells you that the Firebrand needs a little help. As Plaag says maybe a little more durability would be the simple answer.
3. Rasy-1 and several Frozen Heart models, notably I think Ice Dancers (also for Performers where they are a null take) and December Acolytes need a slight buff - now this is tricky because you don't want to overtune a summonable model for Raspy-2, but currently why would Raspy-2 summon either of these models over a Silent One in all but corner cases, so you can polish them a touch safely. Alternatively you could rework Raspy-1 herself in such a way to buff specific Frozen Heart models through synergy (although this does nothing for the poor Ice Dancer in Performer crews).
4. I don't think every crew in Arcanists needs a viable keyword healing option, I have no issue with certain crews needing to go OOK for specific tech (including healing) as long as the absence of tech-A is balanced by the abundance of tech-B>D. M&SU (Toni) have limited healing within keyword (specifically Mouse) and other forms of durability, no issue with OOK being there source of healing, Academic/Elemental are also in a fairly solid place overall, but I do think Sandeep (one of the iterations) needs much more synergy with the Academic side, maybe this would be the opportunity give the Academic keyword some sort of limited healing tech.
5. For that matter the Performer keyword needs a touch work as already noted Ice Dancers and I'll also add Performers could use a tiny bit of love, so maybe giving one a little interesting damage tech and the other a form of healing tech would be interesting here.

But I 100% think the default Silent One is an issue, indicative of some slightly wider flaws in several crews. I don't expect perfect balance I'm happy for some models to be niche, but the Silent One as a heal-bot OOK is simply to important (every crew benefits from healing in basically every game) and efficient for cost - so it needs a look. At the same time several notable models in the Arcanist roster basically don't have much of a role at all niche or otherwise, we have a generally great mid-high cost roster but at the lower soul stone end a number of models are basically lacklustre, notably for me Performers, Ice Dancers, Dec Acolytes, Firebrands, Molemen, Shaster Vidya Guard - for each the in keyword or versatile selection simply include models which are much better at the same (or even less) cost. At the same time they offer not enough to secure a particular niche to be taken as much more than as a demonstration or thematic pick. So why ever take them in competitive crew selection.   

[Euryale]

While I agree that Silent Ones trump other options in terms of healing in many crews, I'd hate to see them get an all-round nerf and prefer to see them become more December specific. 

In fact, I believe their lore says something like "they can use healing ice magic, but there's said to be unknown consequences for those not in the cult". Even something as simple as "if the target is not a December model, it gains Injured +1". It wouldn't stop them being heal bots, and it doesn't just nerf December (who really don't need a nerf), but it would make someone think twice about taking them outside of the keyword (but it's not straight up making them useless OoK either).

If they do nerf them, I really hope it doesn't nerf their use in December. It would be a shame for one of the weakest keywords to have their best minions nerfed because stronger crews were using it. I'd rather it was just more keyword specific.

[Cats Laughing]

3 hours ago, Euryale said:

While I agree that Silent Ones trump other options in terms of healing in many crews, I'd hate to see them get an all-round nerf and prefer to see them become more December specific. 

In fact, I believe their lore says something like "they can use healing ice magic, but there's said to be unknown consequences for those not in the cult". <snip>

If they do nerf them, I really hope it doesn't nerf their use in December. It would be a shame for one of the weakest keywords to have their best minions nerfed because stronger crews were using it. I'd rather it was just more keyword specific.

The "easy" nerf here might be to change Healing Energy's base text to:

Target Heals 1. If target is a December model target instead heals 1/2/3.

(keep trigger as is)

 

[eddy]

6 hours ago, Cats Laughing said:

The "easy" nerf here might be to change Healing Energy's base text to:

Target Heals 1. If target is a December model target instead heals 1/2/3.

(keep trigger as is)

Yeah. Lets stomp one of few usefull low cost minions in arcanist. Better think why he is picked ook? Maybe because other options for his role are crap? Maybe you forgot that magical training got nerf and he is only valid model to put it on in many keywords (like in some keywords living minions are bada and he is only good option for MT)?

It suck this edition that people have problem with OOK picks. Ask yourself is he too op for 7ss model?????

My solution for OOK haters: GIVE SILENT ONE VERSATILE!!!

[Cats Laughing]

I mean if other stuff needs buffing, buff that other stuff.  If the faction is being propped up by the one good model in a bad keyword, then there should be a number of changes and not the status quo floating along mindlessly.

[Jordon]

3 hours ago, eddy said:

Yeah. Lets stomp one of few usefull low cost minions in arcanist. Better think why he is picked ook? Maybe because other options for his role are crap? Maybe you forgot that magical training got nerf and he is only valid model to put it on in many keywords (like in some keywords living minions are bada and he is only good option for MT)?

It suck this edition that people have problem with OOK picks. Ask yourself is he too op for 7ss model?????

My solution for OOK haters: GIVE SILENT ONE VERSATILE!!!

For me, it's less about OOK hate. I will admit I'm big on theme so there are certain things I just won't bring regardless of viability. To me, the issue is more with OOK dominance. Silent One's are seen everywhere. As is Mad Dog in Outcasts, as are Archivist in Explorers. Seems like every faction has their own version and I don't believe it's the intention to have single models taken so universally. 

I totally get why, but I feel like the game is much more interesting when there aren't as obvious of options. It's likely a subtle combination of toning down and buffing up as pointed to above. 

[dancater]

On 1/4/2022 at 11:51 AM, Jordon said:

For me, it's less about OOK hate. I will admit I'm big on theme so there are certain things I just won't bring regardless of viability. To me, the issue is more with OOK dominance. Silent One's are seen everywhere. As is Mad Dog in Outcasts, as are Archivist in Explorers. Seems like every faction has their own version and I don't believe it's the intention to have single models taken so universally. 

100% agree.

Keywords should strive for balance, within the keyword, within the faction and across other factions. 

Versatile models should fill the role of bringing specific tech, unique abilities or a reliable (but un-keyword buffed) model. The keyword buff should always make a keyword model preferred over a versatile at any task both models are designed to achieve. Versatile brings what the keyword can't or supplies a model which can function at its given task without worrying about the keyword buff.

Out of keyword is the corner case, with the +1 tax the logic of a OOK model as useful and valuable should be restricted to only those circumstances where you are looking to achieve a very specific task, a unusual thing the keyword and versatiles simply cannot cover effectively, especially tech against very specific models/crews or into very specific scheme/strat pools. When OOK is a default choice I think we have two issues:

1. The OOK model is likely to strong outside its keyword, and should, as others have identified, be more limited to a focus primarily in keyword.
2. The other keyword and versatile options are likely underpowered for the specific role the OOK plays. Now if this is a unusual or corner role, that is fine, paying the +1 tax for that is, I think, the design aim. But if the OOK appears a lot then we are not talking about a small, niche role but something much more widespread and essential to most, if not all, crews, scheme/strat pools and opponents. In this example we have healing, a primary reason a Silent One is taken both in and out of keyword, healing is clearly a priority and universally useful ability to nearly every crew, Arcanists have numerous models which can heal - so the question is why is the Silent One the default Arcanist healer in practically every circumstance, clearly this means the relevant models need a review, maybe a slight nerf to Silent One focussing its healing in keyword (see Cats Laughing suggestion) while at the same time slightly buffing the relevant approximate minion models in other Arcanist keywords.

A huge problem has always been Magical Training which limited the design space for minions in Arcanists (and still does for living minions). But I acknowledge what eddy states nerfing the Silent One as the only real living minion and healer viable in Arcanists is short-sighted if you don't also look at slightly buffing several other keyword minions, because in this area Arcanists have a number of underpowered and uninspiring models. 

As most people in this post have acknowledged we need a combination of a slight nerf to certain models and a a little buff to a wider range of weaker models. First in order to balance the in-faction choices and then second to make sure those in-faction choices are reasonably equitable to the options available to other factions.

Basically we want to play the faction, not just different master keywords, their few 'best' models, and with the plug-in of around a half dozen or so other models while the majority of the faction selections languish on a shelf. For many masters the alt-masters have helped this, breathing new life into older keyword options. But the dominance of the Silent One clearly highlights a little more work needs doing on both the Over Power and Under Power ends of the Arcanist scale.    

[Jordon]

I'm looking through the various healers per keyword to try and understand why Silent One is so often taken over them. 

Chimera: Myranda

Her healing is restricted to beasts, otherwise I think you'd be seeing her way more often OOK. While I do think Myranda is a good healer, she also has many other roles so I could see why someone would look OOK for additional healing. There is also the very minor synergy with the hoarcats, who can make use of the ice pillars. 

Performer: Mannequin

A good cheap spammable model but the healing itself is quite limited. Requiring to be within 2" and living. So Colette has some non-living options like the Coryphee/Duet who is always taken but cannot benefit from the mannequins heal. Given how fast the crew is I could see why the Mannequins, even taken in multiples, might not be able to keep up. Personally I don't use the Mannequins as dedicated healers anyway but I could see how someone would look OOK for a dedicated healer. 

Academic/Elemental: Ox Mage

I do like their mantra and see it as their only redeemable ability. However it doesn't work on academics and the rest of their card is pretty bad. I've stopped hiring them all together and thus I'm without any sort of healing. If I did want dedicated healing I would definitely look OOK and the Silent One does look like the only viable option. 

M&SU: Mouse

Mouse can be a decently competent healer but he suffers many of the same problems as the Mannequin, but is even more fragile. The Steamfitters can also heal technically but constructs only. For me, M&SU is such a synergistic crew that hiring OOK is tough. I'd probably just rely on Mouse since most things are bunching up anyway. I also feel like the Medical Automoton might be a better fit than a Silent One here. 

Foundry: Sparks? 

Yeah not really many options here. There are lots of constructs so Sparks is an option but honestly it's probably not the reason you're taking him. Given the crews ability to spread out, I can totally see why a Silent One could be beneficial with her long range healing. 

Augmented: Steamfitter/Medical Automoton 

I don't have as much experience with this crew but I feel like the in keyword options are good enough. Steamfitters have the holy union of minion and living, which makes them magical training worthy. Also the crew bubbles up so I don't think range is as necessary here. Maybe competitive folks may differ but I don't really see myself needing to hire Silent Ones here. 

Wildfire: Firebranded

Personally I don't mind firebranded as healers. They can heal as a free action, which is good action economy. However it also means they can only do it once. It also requires additional resources which is an added complication. The range is pretty short, which also adds to the awkwardness. I do see their healing as a secondary role but when comparing it to the silent one, I can see how it has additional hoops to jump through. The Silent One is basically a safer more reliable version of the Firebranded who can apply her heal multiple times, whenever and wherever they need it. 

 

So when looking it seems like every keyword has some kind of option available, but in nearly all cases, has some additional restrictions that leave them unfavourably comparable to the Silent One, or locked to their specific keyword. The Silent One is the only model who can heal whatever they want and at a superior range to any other healer.

So in my opinion they seem like the odd woman out. Everything else has keyword/resource/range restrictions and as long as the Silent One doesn't, she's going to be just vastly better. However I do think think there are certain in-keyword healers that simply aren't doing enough. Firebranded and Ox Mages having similar battlefield roles, but being far less reliable as two of the standout examples.

[Vangerdahast]

Concerning the Mannequin, if you play in keyword, mechanical assistant helps a lot for healing.

In Performer, another option is the Duet with The Power of Dance, but it can be difficult to spare actions for this. Cassandra can copy healing from Mannequin and Duet.

Silent One is a good option but Colette can do without. Just my opinion, others can think differently.

 

[Plaag]

On 1/4/2022 at 2:51 AM, Jordon said:

For me, it's less about OOK hate. I will admit I'm big on theme so there are certain things I just won't bring regardless of viability. To me, the issue is more with OOK dominance. Silent One's are seen everywhere. As is Mad Dog in Outcasts, as are Archivist in Explorers. Seems like every faction has their own version and I don't believe it's the intention to have single models taken so universally. 

I totally get why, but I feel like the game is much more interesting when there aren't as obvious of options. It's likely a subtle combination of toning down and buffing up as pointed to above. 

compare to mad dog and archivist-silent one only heals, not kill half of enemy crew like those ones

[Plaag]

On 1/5/2022 at 6:34 PM, Jordon said:

I'm looking through the various healers per keyword to try and understand why Silent One is so often taken over them. 

Chimera: Myranda

Her healing is restricted to beasts, otherwise I think you'd be seeing her way more often OOK. While I do think Myranda is a good healer, she also has many other roles so I could see why someone would look OOK for additional healing. There is also the very minor synergy with the hoarcats, who can make use of the ice pillars. 

Performer: Mannequin

A good cheap spammable model but the healing itself is quite limited. Requiring to be within 2" and living. So Colette has some non-living options like the Coryphee/Duet who is always taken but cannot benefit from the mannequins heal. Given how fast the crew is I could see why the Mannequins, even taken in multiples, might not be able to keep up. Personally I don't use the Mannequins as dedicated healers anyway but I could see how someone would look OOK for a dedicated healer. 

Academic/Elemental: Ox Mage

I do like their mantra and see it as their only redeemable ability. However it doesn't work on academics and the rest of their card is pretty bad. I've stopped hiring them all together and thus I'm without any sort of healing. If I did want dedicated healing I would definitely look OOK and the Silent One does look like the only viable option. 

M&SU: Mouse

Mouse can be a decently competent healer but he suffers many of the same problems as the Mannequin, but is even more fragile. The Steamfitters can also heal technically but constructs only. For me, M&SU is such a synergistic crew that hiring OOK is tough. I'd probably just rely on Mouse since most things are bunching up anyway. I also feel like the Medical Automoton might be a better fit than a Silent One here. 

Foundry: Sparks? 

Yeah not really many options here. There are lots of constructs so Sparks is an option but honestly it's probably not the reason you're taking him. Given the crews ability to spread out, I can totally see why a Silent One could be beneficial with her long range healing. 

Augmented: Steamfitter/Medical Automoton 

I don't have as much experience with this crew but I feel like the in keyword options are good enough. Steamfitters have the holy union of minion and living, which makes them magical training worthy. Also the crew bubbles up so I don't think range is as necessary here. Maybe competitive folks may differ but I don't really see myself needing to hire Silent Ones here. 

Wildfire: Firebranded

Personally I don't mind firebranded as healers. They can heal as a free action, which is good action economy. However it also means they can only do it once. It also requires additional resources which is an added complication. The range is pretty short, which also adds to the awkwardness. I do see their healing as a secondary role but when comparing it to the silent one, I can see how it has additional hoops to jump through. The Silent One is basically a safer more reliable version of the Firebranded who can apply her heal multiple times, whenever and wherever they need it. 

 

So when looking it seems like every keyword has some kind of option available, but in nearly all cases, has some additional restrictions that leave them unfavourably comparable to the Silent One, or locked to their specific keyword. The Silent One is the only model who can heal whatever they want and at a superior range to any other healer.

So in my opinion they seem like the odd woman out. Everything else has keyword/resource/range restrictions and as long as the Silent One doesn't, she's going to be just vastly better. However I do think think there are certain in-keyword healers that simply aren't doing enough. Firebranded and Ox Mages having similar battlefield roles, but being far less reliable as two of the standout examples.

myranda-many times is taken ook-she is more useful as versatile schemerunner/dd

manequen-too fragile, heals only living, cannt gain training

ox mage-have 2/3 abilities from traininig, heals passive, while model takes concentrate, so u spend action of useful model, not special healer action

mouse-too fragile, he is good healer, but can be killed with most models in game focused atack

foundry have totem, sparcs, they are really good, and most of times u take healing in keyword here

firebranded plays only with title kaeris while she has this unbalanced unresisted dmg with no cap, also firebranded are fragile and have some restrictions on healing

augmented have totem, master, toolkit, u dont need steamfitter and automaton here, maybe like specific pick(automaton end condition)

the problem is that u always want healing in keyword and 7 cards with mt and only one model for this role is silent one

while mt was not only living only-i taked it with automaton some times

[AllistorPreist]

I don't think taken out of keyword is the same as overpowered. Silent Ones fill a role. They heal real good and make pillars and can do both from a safe distance. They can fight, and potentially make soulstones, but the arcanists have much better choices for both. 

The arcanists have other healing options, but none of them are as good at healing and surviving. Emergency surgery is on relatively fragile characters who need to get up close. With mannequins I used to get around this by having a couple, cause they are cheap in keyword. WP 3 makes them vulnerable though, counteracting that somewhat. 

Firebrand burns important resources to heal. This isn't bad, and I still like them, but I get why people might want healing that doesn't cut offensive power. Embrace the flame is good if burning gets out of control or in a pinch. Also, bonus action so. 

Myranda is a 9 stone henchman. 

So, we have a model that is very good at healing, but (imho) only as good at healing as other 6 stone models are at what they do. You see a lot of the Silent one because, like others have said, healing is useful to many crews and her ability to work at a distance makes her a safer place for magic training. But I don't think they need a nerf as much as some of the competing options need a bit of review.