Does aura affect a model that generates it if the model itself is buried?

[Zoer]

Let's say we have a game with Titania vs. Tara. Titania has her "Cruel Disappointment" which changes any severe damage she would suffer to moderate instead. At some point in the game Tara buries Titania and attacks her. As the result of the attack Titania has to suffer severe damage. Would "Cruel Disappointment" still work and the damage would be changed to moderate?

I've spent some time reading the rules and I couldn't find anything that prevents this. To me, aura effect just specifies which area is affected. Taking into account the fact that abilities work constantly, aura affects its creator and a model always has LoS to itself, I would say that the aura should still work.

The only thing that mentions abilities in buried state says that a model can't be targeted by an ability, which aura does not require. It's more about the fact that an aura cannot affect anything that is still on the table.

What do you think?

[Zoer]

I think you guys make a valid point about a model being present on the table. I've just looked at rules once again and noticed one more thing. The first paragraph of Area Effects says "Area effects are game effects that influence an area of the table..." and Bury rules in turn say "Buried models are removed from the table...".

I guess that's it. Thanks everyone

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

Second paragraph of Bury rules: "These Actions ignore all game effects relating to the position of the Buried model", and lists an Aura as one of the ignored game effects. Since Tara's attack would ignore Titania's position for Aura's, I don't think Titania exists inside her Aura and does not gain the effect while Tara's Action is resolving. Another issue I see with allowing it: Auras need to draw Range and LoS to the model being affected, and neither can be done to a Buried model.

[Zoer]

4 hours ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

Second paragraph of Bury rules: "These Actions ignore all game effects relating to the position of the Buried model", and lists an Aura as one of the ignored game effects. Since Tara's attack would ignore Titania's position for Aura's, I don't think Titania exists inside her Aura and does not gain the effect while Tara's Action is resolving. Another issue I see with allowing it: Auras need to draw Range and LoS to the model being affected, and neither can be done to a Buried model.

Well, I think "These actions" stands for "actions that specifically target buried models" as they actually ignore position effects.

Regarding Titania's aura, it affects all friendly models and not the enemies. It does not matter if an enemy model is within the aura's range. That's why I think Titania is still affected by her aura, despite being buried.

[Hipper Hopper Table Toper]

6 hours ago, Zoer said:

...aura affects its creator...
 

Is that so? Does Aura affects its Creator?
 

[Hipper Hopper Table Toper]

1 hour ago, Zoer said:

Well, I think "These actions" stands for "actions that specifically target buried models" as they actually ignore position effects.

Regarding Titania's aura, it affects all friendly models and not the enemies. It does not matter if an enemy model is within the aura's range. That's why I think Titania is still affected by her aura, despite being buried.

As far as I understand the Rules it says; "Buried models cannot be the target of any Actions or Abilities that do not specifically target Buried models".

So the only possiblity to attack a buried Model is with an ability like Beyond Time from Tara: "This Model may target Buried models with actions, ignoring range and LoS"

and all "These Actions ignore all game effects relating to the position of the Buried model, such as range, LoS, , moving the Buried model, etc."

 

And regarding buried modells (Titania) it says:

 

1. "Buried models are removed from the table, though they are still considered to be in play"

So titania isnt there. So you cant draw line of sight, so the Aura cant be used.

 

2. "Buried models cannot be the target of any Actions or Abilities that do not specifically target Buried models"

So titania cant be targeted by her own ability.

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

1 hour ago, Zoer said:

Well, I think "These actions" stands for "actions that specifically target buried models" as they actually ignore position effects.

Regarding Titania's aura, it affects all friendly models and not the enemies. It does not matter if an enemy model is within the aura's range. That's why I think Titania is still affected by her aura, despite being buried.

Titania’ ability is an effect (the Aura) which relates to her position (if she is in the Aura). Instead of looking at what prevents you from using the Aura, what rule would give you permission to benefit from an Aura while not on the table?

[Zoer]

1 hour ago, Hipper Hopper Table Toper said:

As far as I understand the Rules it says; "Buried models cannot be the target of any Actions or Abilities that do not specifically target Buried models".

So the only possiblity to attack a buried Model is with an ability like Beyond Time from Tara: "This Model may target Buried models with actions, ignoring range and LoS"

and all "These Actions ignore all game effects relating to the position of the Buried model, such as range, LoS, , moving the Buried model, etc."

 

And regarding buried modells (Titania) it says:

 

1. "Buried models are removed from the table, though they are still considered to be in play"

So titania isnt there. So you cant draw line of sight, so the Aura cant be used.

 

2. "Buried models cannot be the target of any Actions or Abilities that do not specifically target Buried models"

So titania cant be targeted by her own ability.

Aura rules say "All models inside the Aura’s area, including what is generating the Aura, are affected by the Aura as long as they stay inside the area and remain in LoS of the generating object."

1. There's nothing about targeting a model, it just says "affects". So, "buried models cannot be the target" should not apply here.

2. LoS rules say that a model always has LoS to itself. Regarding range, there are no clear rules about it. It's just said that range is a distance from one object to another. So, I assume that a model is always in range of itself, just like with LoS.

If a model is on a table, there's no question whether it's affected by its own aura, but we never check for range.

[solkan]

3 minutes ago, Zoer said:

Aura rules say "All models inside the Aura’s area, including what is generating the Aura, are affected by the Aura as long as they stay inside the area and remain in LoS of the generating object."

That big quote includes “as long as they stay inside the area”.  -that- is what makes it an effect that depends on the position of the model, and by that reason the buried models clause makes it not apply.

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

The bury rules explicitly say auras dont apply.

[Zoer]

8 minutes ago, solkan said:

That big quote includes “as long as they stay inside the area”.  -that- is what makes it an effect that depends on the position of the model, and by that reason the buried models clause makes it not apply.

 

It just looks strange to me. If a model generates an effect, why should it stop working just because its creator is placed elsewhere? It's a permanent ability of a model. Aura effect just says that it affects an area around its creator as well.

[Zoer]

5 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

The bury rules explicitly say auras dont apply.

Actually, I think "these Actions ignore all game effects relating to the position" refers to actions that can target buried models. Because that's what they do - they allow you to target something ignoring range and LoS.

[Hipper Hopper Table Toper]

6 minutes ago, Zoer said:

A: Aura rules say "All models inside the Aura’s area, including what is generating the Aura, are affected by the Aura as long as they stay inside the area and remain in LoS of the generating object."

1. There's nothing about targeting a model, it just says "affects". So, "buried models cannot be the target" should not apply here.

2. LoS rules say that a model always has LoS to itself. Regarding range, there are no clear rules about it. It's just said that range is a distance from one object to another. So, I assume that a model is always in range of itself, just like with LoS.

If a model is on a table, there's no question whether it's affected by its own aura, but we never check for range.

 

1. On Page 33 under BURY is written in the second Paragraph: "Buried models cannot be the target of any ... Abilities that do not specifically target Buried models"

Titania is Buried. So she cannot be the Target of the Ability Cruel Disappointment.

So it Doesn't matter what's written in the Aura rule, because this is an ability and cannot be used on buried modells.

 

2. If there is no Model, because its not on the Table then it cant have line of sight. There is also no marker, which indicates where your modell is buried (located).

But in my opinion is the 1. Argument the importent. since its prohibit the use of this ability at tiania. because : Buried models cannot be the target ...

Thats my view....

 

cheers

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Just now, Zoer said:

Actually, I think "these Actions ignore all game effects relating to the position" refers to actions that can target buried models. Because that's what they do - they allow you to target something ignoring range and LoS.

Can you give an example of an aura you think this rule would apply to?

[Hipper Hopper Table Toper]

11 minutes ago, Zoer said:

...It's a permanent ability of a model....

 

 

"Buried models cannot be the target of any ... Abilities..."

[Hipper Hopper Table Toper]

14 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Can you give an example of an aura you think this rule would apply to?

I think he is right in this specific point.

 

"These Actions ignore all game effects relating to the
position of the Buried model, such as range, LoS, a,
p, moving the Buried model, etc."

 

Because the modell isnt't there it ignores all this stuff, because this things need the modell to be there.

 

E.g: Tara/ Soulstone sword+ Beyond Time: Tara acctualy need  a Target in range, but there is no modell which can be targeted, because this modell is buried.

So her  Attack Action can ignore range and LoS.

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

Looking at The Table and LoS rules, LoS is only used for objects on the table. Auras need to have LoS to a model affect that model. Even though Titania always has LoS to herself, LoS only exists while on the table. 

[Adran]

13 hours ago, Hipper Hopper Table Toper said:

2. "Buried models cannot be the target of any Actions or Abilities that do not specifically target Buried models"

So titania cant be targeted by her own ability.

Just to say that you are not "targeted" by an aura. Target is a game term, and if an action or an ability does not say that it targets a model, then the models it effects are not targeted by that action/ability.  (Can matter for things like Terrifying which will only happen if you target that model. )

 

 

[Zoer]

23 minutes ago, Adran said:

Just to say that you are not "targeted" by an aura. Target is a game term, and if an action or an ability does not say that it targets a model, then the models it effects are not targeted by that action/ability.  (Can matter for things like Terrifying which will only happen if you target that model. )

 

 

That's what I was appealing to. There's no need to target anything. An aura just affects its creator constantly.

Do you think this would allow the aura to affect a buried model?

[Adran]

12 minutes ago, Zoer said:

That's what I was appealing to. There's no need to target anything. An aura just affects its creator constantly.

Do you think this would allow the aura to affect a buried model?

I'm not sure, that's why I hadn't answered. 

I think the final conclusion you had is probably right

From the Auras (p30) we have

An Aura extends out in all directions from an object a number of inches equal to the listed distance in inches, as measured from the edge of the object’s base

All models inside the Aura’s area, including what is generating the Aura, are affected by the Aura as long as they stay inside the area and remain in LoS of the generating object.

 

And a buried model can not measure out an area from its base, because its not on the table, and so since it can't create the area, it can't be in the area to be affected by it. 

 

Auras don't affect the originating model, and all models within x" of it (that can see it), they create an area x" around the originating model, and if you are in that area and can see the originator, you are affected. 

[Hipper Hopper Table Toper]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

Just to say that you are not "targeted" by an aura. Target is a game term, and if an action or an ability does not say that it targets a model, then the models it effects are not targeted by that action/ability.  (Can matter for things like Terrifying which will only happen if you target that model. )

 

 

But aren't Phrases like "this Modell" or "friendly modell" Target specifications?

E.g. Beyond Time from Tara : This Modell may target Buried models with Actions, ignoring range and LoS.

 

The Target of this Ability is "this Modell". Am I wrong?

 

2. And The Cruel Disappointment Aura is part of an Ability from Titania. At least its listet at the frontside of her card which has the Topic "Abilities".

[Adran]

3 minutes ago, Hipper Hopper Table Toper said:

But aren't Phrases like "this Modell" or "friendly modell" Target specifications?

E.g. Beyond Time from Tara : This Modell may target Buried models with Actions, ignoring range and LoS.

 

The Target of this Ability is "this Modell". Am I wrong?

No they aren't. This ability doesn't target a model. It does affect Tara, but it doesn't target Tara. 

Likewise if an ability asks you to choose a model (Such as Celebrity on Cassandra/showgirl) that model has not targeted the the chosen model. 

[Hipper Hopper Table Toper]

11 minutes ago, Adran said:

No they aren't. This ability doesn't target a model. It does affect Tara, but it doesn't target Tara. 

Likewise if an ability asks you to choose a model (Such as Celebrity on Cassandra/showgirl) that model has not targeted the the chosen model. 

But why it says: "Buried models cannot be the target of any ... Abilities that do not specifically target Buried models." on p. 33 under Buried?
This is pointless rule if abilities dont target a Unit in general.

 

and: yes... you are right. the Aura doesnt target a unit. But the ability which grants an Aura does.

 

[Adran]

4 minutes ago, Hipper Hopper Table Toper said:

But why it says: "Buried models cannot be the target of any ... Abilities that do not specifically target Buried models." on p. 33 under Buried?
This is pointless rule if abilities dont target a Unit in general.

 

and: yes... you are right. the Aura doesnt target a unit. But the ability which grants an Aura does.

 

Because it is possible for an ability to target a model. I can't think of an example at the moment, but it is possible for it to happen. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Sometimes rules do end up being pointless or redundant, especially for niche cases.

It is easier to just include both actions and abilities when writing things.

I don't think abilities can target, but perhaps sometimes involve choosing a model.

[Hipper Hopper Table Toper]

5 minutes ago, Adran said:

Because it is possible for an ability to target a model. I can't think of an example at the moment, but it is possible for it to happen. 

which terms should be written there to make clear that this ability needs a target?