List Building

[Fexxo]

Hi

Returning player to Malifaux and I was checking out some videos while browsing some lists here. What I see is a lot of lists that don't use duplicate models. Is this due to trying to keep your crew versatile in what it does. How do you really know when to take duplicates or not. I play English Ivan and Lord Cooper, with Ivan I run two Brocken Spectres and Cooper I run two Vatagi Huntsman. The reason for the Spectres is to deny more healing and have more space for Ivan to jump too, but then I lose out on Gibbs. Then the Huntsman are for the pit markers, so I can deny more space. If anyone can just give me tips on what would be the reason to take duplicates over taking a different unit, that would be great.

Thanks in advance.

[Adran]

I don't think there is a right answer to this. I'll use duplicates of a model if I think that I need duplicates, either because I want redundancy in certain abilities, or because I want certain effects/threats in more than one place.

As an example, If I face an armoured crew, then I am more likely to take models that ignore armour, and as there aren't that many of those, I probably will take duplicates. 

As you say the downs side to duplicates is that you then don't get other things. 

Short answer is have a plan for the game. If you think something is going o be important, then it may well be worth multiple things that can do that. If your opponent heals a lot, then multiple anti healing auras have more use, but if they aren't going to heal, then do you need multiple? Does the rest of the card give you enough use? 

[Fexxo]

Thanks Adran, that does put things into a bit more perspective for me. 

[Morgan Vening]

I think a good part of the reason is that because of the Pass Token mechanic, a lot of people tend to go fairly elite, and there aren't a lot of good elite Minions (I'm blanking on any beyond Cerberus and Mature Nephilim), and so it's Enforcers, Henchmen and Masters, who are almost universally Unique. 

There's also an issue with redundancy that you and Adran mention. Two identical models means that if one dies, the other is still around to "do it's job". Which means your opponent can't as easily disrupt you by killing one model. But it also means you have the same issue, as you don't have as many tools to disrupt your opponent.

[muraki]

Agreed.  There's no simple answer, I'll sometimes take dupes (scheme runners) if I need them, but Malifaux has so many great options (even if you stay in Key) I have had times where I only am hiring a single minion, and the rest is enforcers+.  So it's just more that I like other options.

I also have issues hiring a lot of minions as a lot of my keywords have minions that die to a stiff breeze, and if my opponent can easily 1 shot a minion off the board, I wonder 'why didn't i just take 1 9-10 stone models' or 'if i need to strap on an upgrade to make him survive more, why not take something that didnt need the upgrade as 2 upgrades is a lot of stones'

That said there are times I take multiple minions, hucksters / torakage / operatives / gamin / etc have a habit of showing up in lists in pairs either because they're good models, or I expect one to be wiped off the board.  Also depends on the pool, if I feel like going for martyrs, a few low cost options to confuse my opponent are always nice.

[Fexxo]

Thank you so much Morgan and muraki. I just need to figure it out a bit more with more games. But I really appreciate the feedback.

[SEV]

What factions do toi play? I think some faction /master are more likely than other to hire duplicates. You need great minion to begin with 😀.

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

I think there's a few stages to the learning curve for list-building.

First stage is just making a coherent list that works with your crew. When you start playing, the first thing you're trying to do is make sure your crew actually works together (for instance, if you have grave golem... You need someone to make corpses).

Second stage is adapting to what your opponent brings. For instance, bringing Anna Lovelace against English Ivan.

Third stage is kinda a combination of the above effects. You figure out what you need against an opponent, and build a coherent list for that (for instance, Anna Lovelace doesn't counter English Ivan by herself - what else are you doing with the list, how are you making sure your plan goes off, etc).

By the time you get to the third stage, you're customising a list for a precise pool of schemes and strategy AND a particular enemy master. So if you see someone at this stage duplicating models, it is usually because it is so important they can't do without it and need redundancy (or the effect done multiple times is very powerful, like mature nephilim or cerberus). If someone isn't duplicating models, they probably needed a bunch of different effects (or as someone pointed out, they wanted henchmen/enforcers which can't be doubled up).

Just my experience with list building, anyway!

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

Doubling up on a minion is also for maximizing an interaction in addition to, or instead of, redundancy. For Vatagi Huntsman, taking two is a possible strong choice if you are planning to use Malisaurus Rex and are looking to use Tail Whip for the trigger every turn. Lets you put out a possible 4 traps per turn, but this is where you would need to weigh two Vatagi alone, two Vatagi w/ Rex, and one Vatagi w/ Rex against the pool, opponent’s Leader, and you’re own favored plans.