Effects on piece of terrain, Terrain size and balancing

[Tired peasant]

Hello,

I'm new to the game.
I'm working with a friend building a board and a lot of questions for balancing are raised.
Let's have a look at the following effects:

• Waldgeist, Kurgan - Tangling roots - "... any other model in the same piece of severe Terrain ..."
• Jedza - Life of earth - "Target a terrain piece ..."
• Grave goo
  • Through the much - "After it came into base contact with any terrain ..."
  • Trail of slim - "Enemy models treat terrain in base contact with this model ..."

I was planning to have a river/canal moving through my board and consider it as sever terrain.
It's quite different from targeting a small wood.
And I don't even talk about If your gaming board is a swamp with small "dry" islands on it

It totally makes sens in term of fluff, but I wonder:

• how to keep it "balanced"
• avoid unnecessary question during the game

And then it goes even further in the headache :

1. Is there a definition of what is a Piece of terrain ?
2. A building is a piece of terrain right ?
   1. Does it count as one single piece ?
   2. Or does each wall count as separated ?
   3. What if the building is big ?
   4. Does the inside count as the same piece ?
3. I have an elevated square (2~3 inches) with stairs to reach it:
   1. Is all of it a terrain piece ?
   2. Same question than the building with the walls ...
   3. Is the top flat surface of it a terrain piece then ?
   4. Same question with the stairs ...
4. Should a terrain have a max size ?
5. Or should I max the distance reach of such abilities I quoted above ?

I guess the answer gonna be something like: "Discuss it with your opponent before the game".
But I don't want every game staring with a long negotiation with every new player and remembering what was agreed with who ... 
Is there convention / tournament guidelines that can help ?

I wanted to build something really cool looking multi-level and such ...
But I guess I'll have to do a lof simplification to keep it "rule friendly"

[Adran]

18 minutes ago, Tired peasant said:

Hello,

I'm new to the game.
I'm working with a friend building a board and a lot of questions for balancing are raised.
Let's have a look at the following effects:

• Waldgeist, Kurgan - Tangling roots - "... any other model in the same piece of severe Terrain ..."
• Jedza - Life of earth - "Target a terrain piece ..."
• Grave goo
  • Through the much - "After it came into base contact with any terrain ..."
  • Trail of slim - "Enemy models treat terrain in base contact with this model ..."

I was planning to have a river/canal moving through my board and consider it as sever terrain.
It's quite different from targeting a small wood.
And I don't even talk about If your gaming board is a swamp with small "dry" islands on it

It totally makes sens in term of fluff, but I wonder:

• how to keep it "balanced"
• avoid unnecessary question during the game

And then it goes even further in the headache :

1. Is there a definition of what is a Piece of terrain ?
2. A building is a piece of terrain right ?
   1. Does it count as one single piece ?
   2. Or does each wall count as separated ?
   3. What if the building is big ?
   4. Does the inside count as the same piece ?
3. I have an elevated square (2~3 inches) with stairs to reach it:
   1. Is all of it a terrain piece ?
   2. Same question than the building with the walls ...
   3. Is the top flat surface of it a terrain piece then ?
   4. Same question with the stairs ...
4. Should a terrain have a max size ?
5. Or should I max the distance reach of such abilities I quoted above ?

I guess the answer gonna be something like: "Discuss it with your opponent before the game".
But I don't want every game staring with a long negotiation with every new player and remembering what was agreed with who ... 
Is there convention / tournament guidelines that can help ?

I wanted to build something really cool looking multi-level and such ...
But I guess I'll have to do a lof simplification to keep it "rule friendly"

My First answer to almost any Terrain question is it depends on how you define it. I have played games on an identical table layout with the features defined differently, and it makes for a very different game, which I think is a very good thing. So yes, you can defien it differently between games. If it is your table and you are buildign it in a fixed configuration, and you want to, you could try 2 or 3 different set ups in terms of definitions, print them out and have a copy of them for your opponent so you both know which version you are using. 

That said I'll try and offer a few more useful answers

Page 40 of the electronic rule book is a good place to start. 

It even contains a suggestion about how to use things like a river with this sort of ability (break it up into separate sections).

Most buildings would count a a single piece of terrain, and page 38 has advanced building rules if you are using them as enterable. 

The elevated square is probably 1 terrain piece, although I would typically count the stairs as a seperate piece. If I want to give 1 section different rules, then I probably count it as a seperate piece for overall ease. 

Look carefully at complicated terrain (p37), Buildigns (P38) and Large terrain (p40) for suggested maximum sizes and ways to seperate what looks like 1 piece into 2 or more pieces

Most of the time most crews won't care about how many pieces that river really is, and so forth. There are a few models which do, and if you are likely to be playing with them, you will want to be more careful about the definitions. Be prepared to update how you define the board to deal with issues that you later find.  

 

[Morgan Vening]

I has a similar conceptual issue with a board that I'm working on, that's essentially all water. There'll be a couple island sections, but a good 70% of the board would be water. This is mitigated for the most part by having a crapload of walkways and platforms (Nanhai Dockside from 4Ground) that cross over that water, but it still causes problems for the models you mentioned.

Jedza = 3" radius centered on a specific point, and models can't be affected more than once (slight variation on not hitting the same terrain piece twice)
Goo = 3" aura for Slime. Muck doesn't need a range.
Wald/Kurgan = 4" (ie, +3") range on melee attacks. This is kinda but not completely what happened in 2nd Ed for Waldgeists.

It's a combination of what the previous edition did for Waldgeists, and that some terrain (specifically buildings) is supposed to be no larger than 6" a side.

[solkan]

It may feel weird, but if you’re going to do something like a table covered in swamp, or water, or forest, I think you pretty much have to do those terrain pieces as sections (overlapping slightly, maybe?).  I wouldn’t want to be quoted on how big the sections should be, but I think most of the terrain related effects expect that terrain has a maximum size.

 

[Morgan Vening]

2 hours ago, solkan said:

It may feel weird, but if you’re going to do something like a table covered in swamp, or water, or forest, I think you pretty much have to do those terrain pieces as sections (overlapping slightly, maybe?).  I wouldn’t want to be quoted on how big the sections should be, but I think most of the terrain related effects expect that terrain has a maximum size.

I'll be using a mat with a swampwater image across the whole mat, so that I can reorient where the islands are, from game to game, and so that the whole board is flat for the terrain being placed upon it. Making it as actual separate terrain pieces that would intersect well, and wouldn't be uneven, would just be a nightmare for someone as hobby untalented as me.

[Adran]

I'd suggest making each section of water between2 islands it's own piece and see if that breaks it up enough. 

[solkan]

55 minutes ago, Morgan Vening said:

I'll be using a mat with a swampwater image across the whole mat, so that I can reorient where the islands are, from game to game, and so that the whole board is flat for the terrain being placed upon it. Making it as actual separate terrain pieces that would intersect well, and wouldn't be uneven, would just be a nightmare for someone as hobby untalented as me.

Can you draw chalk lines or something on the mat?  

Well, not being “uneven” is probably less important, within reason.  The critical thing is that making all of the water one terrain piece is going to make some models break the game.  

[Tired peasant]

3 hours ago, Morgan Vening said:

It's a combination of what the previous edition did for Waldgeists, and that some terrain (specifically buildings) is supposed to be no larger than 6" a side.

That's interesting ... I'll start to work with that.

@Adran I did re-read the terrain rules.
Splitting a river in sections sounds strange ... how do you decide the length of such section ?

Is there some famous Malifaux tournaments ?
I think asking to organiser the way they design table can bring some ideas. They sure have come around this topic ?

May be I should be looking at it in a different way:
The terrain, in the addition to the scenario, is also a parameter to pick the master.
- on a light busy table, a gun line is better
- on a busy table, a close combat or flying crew has advantage
- on a table with big/long terrain, crew with terrain based attack has advantage

May be also, in term of gameplay, it's not that's crazy advantage.
You can still cross the river, just don't stay in it ?

I'm happy anyway to start my first post with a question that is not too stupid

[solkan]

4 hours ago, Tired peasant said:

Splitting a river in sections sounds strange ... how do you decide the length of such section ?

Arbitrarily.  😇  Although, more practically, if you go out and buy river terrain from a store, most of the time you'll get a set of modular pieces.  Or if you've made your own, you could just mark out six to eight inch sections if there aren't convenient landmarks like forks or bridges or whatever along the river.

I think it's worth pointing out that Gaining Grounds (Wyrd's official tournament guidelines) has a page of suggestions for scenery arrangement.  (Available on the resources page  https://www.wyrd-games.net/resources  )

The thing to remember when thinking about terrain setups that skew in various directions is fairness to the players.  Unless you're playing a fixed list variant, tables that wildly favor different types of models just end up feeling like "The person with the biggest model collection wins".  (Although, naturally, a player's access to the various model types is going to vary by their chosen faction.)

 

[Adran]

9 hours ago, Tired peasant said:

That's interesting ... I'll start to work with that.

@Adran I did re-read the terrain rules.
Splitting a river in sections sounds strange ... how do you decide the length of such section ?

Is there some famous Malifaux tournaments ?
I think asking to organiser the way they design table can bring some ideas. They sure have come around this topic ?

May be I should be looking at it in a different way:
The terrain, in the addition to the scenario, is also a parameter to pick the master.
- on a light busy table, a gun line is better
- on a busy table, a close combat or flying crew has advantage
- on a table with big/long terrain, crew with terrain based attack has advantage

May be also, in term of gameplay, it's not that's crazy advantage.
You can still cross the river, just don't stay in it ?

I'm happy anyway to start my first post with a question that is not too stupid

There are several ways to split a river. The easiest is when you used a modular river that typically come in 6" sections, so you can easily call each section a different part of the river. I don't think that works for you as I think you're creating a fixed board. What you would have to do is the same as we do with real rivers, make the sections between landmarks. It might be as easily as the section between the stone bridge and the wooden bridge, or the section from the island edge to the rocky outcrop. For terrain based effects I would try and keep each section no more than 6" long, so you would get at least 6 sections if the river just went from one side to another. ( If there is a 7" gap between land marks you are probably better splitting that section into 2 parts, rather than having an extra long part

I can't say for certain how tournament organisers plan their tables, I have a feeling that its a mix of trial and error and what they have available. (That's how I make my tables) Experience in playing the game does really help know what works and what might cause an issue. 

I would say @Clousseau is one of the best Tournament organisers I know, especially in terms of terrain, since over the past 10+ years of running malifaux events he has built up a very large collection. He runs the largest event in the world, the UK GT (as well as many others), and can probably do 40-50 different tables at the same time. I believe his current set up is to have all the terrain for a table in a box with a photo of the layout and a guide to the terrain traits. 

You are right when you talk about certain masters preferring certain tables. I always pick my crew based on the mission and the table. A lot of people don't do that, they pick a crew and then try and make it work on the table they are on. I have seen a few games that were hugely ruined by the terrain layout, but its probably less than 1 in a 1000, and in almost all those cases it was a new player laying out the terrain in a way that didn't really work for Malifaux (Huge lines of sight for a gun crew and things that slowed down movement for example). There were a few when players didn't adapt to the problems the table set very well (or their opponent was able to adapt hugely well) so I've seen a few games on "indoors" tables and if your opponent has access to incorporeal crews and you don't, they are going to be hugely more mobile. The table itself works very well if neither crew is incorporeal, but if one is and 1 isn't its quite a struggle. 

Become aware of when an issue is just because of that certain game (You were able to hide symbols on the board very easily, and protect them with a marker based crew, may make that layout an issue in that circumstance, but it could well be fine with a different deployment, or a different mission, or even just different crews playing on it)

 

[Tired peasant]

I really don't like the split solution, sounds unnatural.
But what about having the reach of the capacity to be max 6" ?
If I target a river, from the contact point with the river, it then will be max 6" to touch the targets.
Same for a building wall, 6" along it max.

What do you think about this ?

[Adran]

35 minutes ago, Tired peasant said:

I really don't like the split solution, sounds unnatural.
But what about having the reach of the capacity to be max 6" ?
If I target a river, from the contact point with the river, it then will be max 6" to touch the targets.
Same for a building wall, 6" along it max.

What do you think about this ?

Personally I try not to add too many house rules, they can lead to all sorts of unexpected consequences. 

This may work, but it is a little less clear to me than splitting pieces into multiple sections. I'm not sure that there is one easy rule for all effects. Remember there are also things like Search the ruins that is supposed to put scheme markers next to different pieces of terrain. 

Even this gives a huge possible effect for Life of the Earth if Jedza can target any point of the river that is within 8" of her, and then have the effect carry along 6" futher along the terrain, and then have its 2. No idea if that is too much, but it certainly makes the action better on your table than on most. 

 

[Nathan Sells]

1 hour ago, Tired peasant said:

I really don't like the split solution, sounds unnatural.

If you want to make a river splits feel natural you could try adding features to it, assuming you're planning on making your own, or willing to modify a prefab one. You could easily have things like a 4" section of rapids, a 6" section where the river narrows or widens, a 6" area bordered by stones to make crossing easier, a 5" boggy section, a section where the river forks and rejoins...

Certainly dividing up a long fast flowing river into sections is odd, if you give your river some obstacles it makes more sense to break it into sections and can lead to a more interesting and natural looking board. 

[Clousseau]

There is no perfect answer on terrain. As @Adranhas said I have around 50 tables-worth of terrain boxed at table level, with matching mat or 2D board. After many debates at events I added a terrain traits sheet to each box which gives players a guide to the characteristics of that table's terrain. Players can agree to differ, but it gives a default. Due to being transported around the country there's no fixed terrain which has the advantage of flexibility to suit starts/schemes/deployment. In tournaments the variety of terrain traits, layout, etc. is an important element and may advantage, or disadvantage, a particular crew, and the more flexible players will work round this.

To answer some of the questions raised, buildings are 1 piece of terrain, and not too big. If large then there should be multiple access points. For a river, or other such extended piece of terrain I would either not count it all all for scoring (using adjacent features such as trees, bridges, etc. for 'terrain') or split into convenient section (between bridges for example) at least 6" apart. Sections could be different sizes.

If making a permanent 3D table I'd suggest a few test games on a simulation first, to avoid issues that would be difficult to fix later, and try an build in some flexibility e.g. building swap out for a graveyard.

For me the key pieces of terrain are the scatter pieces, which impact movement, provide cover, etc. Personally I like carriages, carts and crates.

[Maniacal_cackle]

9 hours ago, Clousseau said:

There is no perfect answer on terrain. As @Adranhas said I have around 50 tables-worth of terrain boxed at table level, with matching mat or 2D board. After many debates at events I added a terrain traits sheet to each box which gives players a guide to the characteristics of that table's terrain. Players can agree to differ, but it gives a default. Due to being transported around the country there's no fixed terrain which has the advantage of flexibility to suit starts/schemes/deployment. In tournaments the variety of terrain traits, layout, etc. is an important element and may advantage, or disadvantage, a particular crew, and the more flexible players will work round this.

To answer some of the questions raised, buildings are 1 piece of terrain, and not too big. If large then there should be multiple access points. For a river, or other such extended piece of terrain I would either not count it all all for scoring (using adjacent features such as trees, bridges, etc. for 'terrain') or split into convenient section (between bridges for example) at least 6" apart. Sections could be different sizes.

If making a permanent 3D table I'd suggest a few test games on a simulation first, to avoid issues that would be difficult to fix later, and try an build in some flexibility e.g. building swap out for a graveyard.

For me the key pieces of terrain are the scatter pieces, which impact movement, provide cover, etc. Personally I like carriages, carts and crates.

If you have photos of your boards, would love to see them!