Alternative costs to discarding cards?

[Maniacal_cackle]

Just been thinking about playdesign, and one issue is really standing out: discarding cards is sometimes too disruptive a cost. Lots of models are considered bad with it basically coming down to them not being able to fuel all their abilities because discarding is an unreasonable cost (Rasputina, Desperate Mercenary, Frontiersman, Lampads, etc).

I'm wondering what other design options there are other than just 'discarding a card' while still having a cost, giving further balance options. Here's some ones I've noticed.

Give distracted - McMourning gets distracted when summoning a Flesh Construct, which is supremely impactful, but gives a different angle to give a disadvantage. I like this one because it can easily be cancelled out by focus (or condition removal), but still is a very real obstacle.

Cancelling focus - I believe Lord Cooper of Apex is key example of this. Lowering focus by 1 or X (or another condition) is a great way to give a cost that you have to work to pay, without costing a card. I believe Frontiersman's Deputy ability should have worked by reducing focus instead of paying a card, making them more of a self-contained model that doesn't drain your crew. I also imagine that Lampads would be seen very differently if their demise was based on losing 3 burning instead of discarding a card (although still might be bad).

Sacrificing health - Sacrificing health is a meaningful cost, but one that can be mitigated without having to slap card draw onto a crew (which comes with its own problems). If Rasputina had to sacrifice health to declare triggers instead of discard, it could completely change how her keyword operates.

Consume resources - There's also the obvious 'eat scrap/corpse/terrain/scheme markers', or anything else that consumes a meaningful resource. This gives a meaningful cost that is typically about an action, but can be a good payoff later.

 

What do you think? Is this even an issue? What ways do you think costs can still be included in the game without discarding? Are there particular examples of models you think should be reworked to not have to discard?

[Scoffer]

I find discarding cards one of the best costs and one of the best design decisions.

Malifaux is a game of resource management and cards in hand are one if the main resources. And it's good when you have to actually manage them and decide whether you want to cheat a medium value flip or save that card to pay a cost later. 

Discard costs make low cards valuable and at the same time tune down all-severe hands. In a vassal world's game last night I had a hand of three queens (a great hand Indeed!). And I had to discard two of them: one to Ambush and another to Flurry. At least it scored me a VP and it was one of the sweetest VPs I've ever scored.

I think some additional card draw could be added to crews that struggle from discard costs instead of removing that costs.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Just now, Scoffer said:

I find discarding cards one of the best costs and one of the best design decisions.

Malifaux is a game of resource management and cards in hand are one if the main resources. And it's good when you have to actually manage them and decide whether you want to cheat a medium value flip or save that card to pay a cost later. 

Discard costs make low cards valuable and at the same time tune down all-severe hands. In a vassal world's game last night I had a hand of three queens (a great hand Indeed!). And I had to discard two of them: one to Ambush and another to Flurry. At least it scored me a VP and it was one of the sweetest VPs I've ever scored.

I think some additional card draw could be added to crews that struggle from discard costs instead of removing that costs.

I think that's fair enough on a big enough payoff (Rogue Necromancy, Crooligan). Heck, my entire gameplay is based around drawing and discarding cards (as a Molly player).

That said, I think it gets a bit much for some models, especially cheap models. I also don't like the idea that just everyone should have lots of card draw, as it makes the game a bit homogenous. 

But then doing something like discarding a card to take a stat 5, 2/3/4 attack is often pretty mediocre.

[Scoffer]

27 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

But then doing something like discarding a card to take a stat 5, 2/3/4 attack is often pretty mediocre.

That's the point - to decide if you really need that attack. I think malifaux will be a much better game with less attacking just because you have an action to spend.

33 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I also don't like the idea that just everyone should have lots of card draw, as it makes the game a bit homogenous. 

I think there should be some for every keyword. In a world where Transmortis draw 5-10 card each turn for just performing opposed duels, every other crew deserves 1-2 card a turn.

[Maniacal_cackle]

23 minutes ago, Scoffer said:

That's the point - to decide if you really need that attack. I think malifaux will be a much better game with less attacking just because you have an action to spend.

Well, part of the calculation is also "do I bother hiring this model in the first place." It seems for several model, that calculation ends up being that you just hire something else.

I'm not saying don't put costs in, just seems like it'd be good to have more variety of costs.

25 minutes ago, Scoffer said:

I think there should be some for every keyword. In a world where Transmortis draw 5-10 card each turn for just performing opposed duels, every other crew deserves 1-2 card a turn.

I'm not sure I've ever seen Transmortis draw that many cards (but then, I play a keyword that's pretty good at denying it). But even if they can, I'm not sure the answer is to just give everyone card draw rather than nerf Transmortis. I think card constraints tend to make the game interesting (except when they're so severe they just knock models out of viability).

[NoisyAssassin]

6 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I'm not sure I've ever seen Transmortis draw that many cards (but then, I play a keyword that's pretty good at denying it). But even if they can, I'm not sure the answer is to just give everyone card draw rather than nerf Transmortis. I think card constraints tend to make the game interesting (except when they're so severe they just knock models out of viability).

I've played against them twice, and I think on his slowest turn between both games he drew 3 cards. Most turns were 5+ (although I don't think he ever got quite to 10). 

I agree though that adding draw to everyone isn't the solution. I've mostly played Foundry, a keyword with no draw, and find it to be an interesting limitation. 

[belorey]

8 hours ago, Scoffer said:

I find discarding cards one of the best costs and one of the best design decisions.

Malifaux is a game of resource management and cards in hand are one if the main resources. And it's good when you have to actually manage them and decide whether you want to cheat a medium value flip or save that card to pay a cost later.

Sure but when you desing a model you must think on all the keyword and belance all of them so if you give Deputy to the model with the worst shooting stat on the keyword (Frontiersman), and if the keyword has none card draw and he need a potential low card for Sand Worm unbury or a Dust Marker.

You are creating a model with an useless abilite and a potetial Soulstone overrun. So finally you are not going to hire him.

[belorey]

Discard a card as a cost is very unbalanced. It's not the same on some keywords with an insane card draw like Elite, Wastrel... Than others like Augmented or Witch Hunters.

 

[Thatguy]

I think that alternative costs are good, but I'd do them in a crew by crew basis. 

Like a lot of Bayou stuff basically uses wounds as an alternative resource. Tara uses fast on opponent's ect. 

I don't think I'd spread it everywhere, but I think it can open up more design space. Like crews that have great card draw probably don't also need an alternative resource. 

[belorey]

52 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

I think that alternative costs are good, but I'd do them in a crew by crew basis. 

Like a lot of Bayou stuff basically uses wounds as an alternative resource. Tara uses fast on opponent's ect. 

I don't think I'd spread it everywhere, but I think it can open up more design space. Like crews that have great card draw probably don't also need an alternative resource. 

I think It could be an option on keywords with no card draw. If Bayou had no healing, using wounds as alternative resource would be very hard to do. 

[ShinChan]

1 hour ago, belorey said:

I think It could be an option on keywords with no card draw. If Bayou had no healing, using wounds as alternative resource would be very hard to do. 

Cries in Tricksy

[Thatguy]

18 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

Cries in Tricksy

Luckily there's a lot of good OoK heeling. 

One of these days I'm going to try running a Rooster Rider with a Slop Hauler friend. 

[ShinChan]

3 hours ago, Thatguy said:

Luckily there's a lot of good OoK heeling. 

One of these days I'm going to try running a Rooster Rider with a Slop Hauler friend. 

Good luck trying to catch up with the Reckless (and probably drunk) Gremlin Riding a Rooster  I was just joking, Bayou as a faction can't complain of the healing options we have (I just wish for a FAQ to My Loyal Servant regarding Tricksy).