Bete noire rising while unburied already?

[Maniacal_cackle]

This was spurred by another thread where we talked about the word 'then', and I'm curious how people are playing Bete Noire's rise again.

If Bete Noire uses the Rise Again ability while on the table, what happens?

Nothing? Remove the corpse marker and a free charge from current location?

Up until now I had assumed that the word "then" means that both sentences form a single effect (and thus when the unbury effect is ignored, so is the rest), but I get the impression not everyone plays this way.

So thoughts on this ability while still on the table?

[Maniacal_cackle]

For reference, this is the other thread:

 

[Ogid]

It seems that wording is mess up.

How that is probably suposed to work is that she can only do that while buried. But as there is no restriction in place to prevent it from being used while the model is unburied, In practice she may use it to charge on top of removing a corpse marker from anywhere on the table (because the parts she can't resolve are just ignored).

And taking in count some people are ricocheting the hell out the same target, I guess this will be used XD... I hope the next AQ fix this kind of holes in the rules...

[LeperColony]

I think the "then" is quite useful, as it identifies the two effects as separate.  We know from the rules that models that are not buried ignore unbury effects (pg 33).  If instead of being two separate sentences, it had been one sentence joined with "and," you could argue that the marker removal and charge were dependent on unburying (or, in other words, they were part of the unbury effect).

Since it says "then," we resolve the second effect after resolving the first.  Since Bete isn't buried, she ignores the unbury effect.  Then, the marker is removed and she can charge.

[Ogid]

41 minutes ago, LeperColony said:

I think the "then" is quite useful, as it identifies the two effects as separate.  We know from the rules that models that are not buried ignore unbury effects (pg 33).  If instead of being two separate sentences, it had been one sentence joined with "and," you could argue that the marker removal and charge were dependent on unburying (or, in other words, they were part of the unbury effect).

Since it says "then," we resolve the second effect after resolving the first.  Since Bete isn't buried, she ignores the unbury effect.  Then, the marker is removed and she can charge.

The problem is twisting words or adding rules to make one thing work as we think that should work is that will mess up the reading of things working as intended (an example is again Ricochet/My loyal servant in GG1).

The FAQ confirmed that in the Demise (Eternal Soil), both the unbury and the healing are 2 independent events (both joined by "and"). This is a similar case but with an unbury effect (or we have to guess somehow that "and" let some effect being ignored, but "then" not... that kind of rules needs to be spelled out).

The only time an event is subordinated to another is when it's explicitly stated (like the burning in Kaeris' conflagration or the healing from Shang's Flickering Flames for example)

[LeperColony]

40 minutes ago, Ogid said:

The problem is twisting words or adding rules to make one thing work as we think that should work is that will mess up the reading of things working as intended (an example is again Ricochet/My loyal servant in GG1).

No words were added or twisted.  I used the actual text of the effect.

The rules for actions tell us to resolve the effects in order.  The action describes two effects.

1.  Unbury.

2.  Remove marker, optional charge.

We know from the rules on bury that models that are not buried ignore unburied.  So the flow chart would be:

1.  Ignore unbury.

2.  Remove marker, optional charge.

Ricochet/My Loyal Servant isn't relevant to this at all.  Wyrd either stealth nerfed Nekima rather than own up to it with an errata, OR, Wyrd had always intended Nekima's ability to work basically as though it said "another (other than this model)" but in trying to issue a FAQ for the way they had always wanted that ability to work, they mistakenly broke all anothers.

At any rate, it has nothing to do with the current situation.

40 minutes ago, Ogid said:

The FAQ confirmed that in the Demise (Eternal Soil), both the unbury and the healing are 2 independent events (both joined by "and"). This is a similar case but with an unbury effect (or we have to guess somehow that "and" let some effect being ignored, but "then" not... that kind of rules needs to be spelled out).

Whether something is one or multiple effects is admittedly unclear.  That's why I said if the action wrote "and" someone "could argue" that the marker removal and charge were the same effect as the unbury.  But even if it said "then" within the same sentence, someone may still argue they're the same effect.  

In fact, unless one effect is explicitly made dependent on another (for instance, "models damaged by this attack suffer Burning +1"), I'm not sure it's possible to ever definitively link effects.  Are the damage and the healing on Relic Blade the same effect?  I don't think so, even though they're in the same sentence.  

Though in any event, I should have been more clear, because it's not just that "then" is used, but that it's two separate sentences and "then" is used.  Then has temporal connotations.  Do something.  After that, do something else.  

Now, going by intent, I think Wyrd meant for the action to only be permissible while buried.  Because otherwise, you could get rid of a marker from anywhere, then charge.  And that doesn't really feel thematically consistent with the action.

It should probably be read to say "this action can only be taken while buried."  But unless Wyrd says that's what they intended, since the text of the action is broken into multiple independent sentences, and since "then" establishes a temporal relationship between the effects, it's hard for me to see a textual justification to deny Bete from taking the action while not buried.

[solkan]

Please leave the word "then" alone.  It shouldn't be in this fight.  😶

It seems to me that the intent is that you can't take the action.  The two actions that contain the italics "This action can be taken while buried" is intended as "This action can only be taken while Buried."  Especially when the action then proceeds to describe an unbury effect.  See, for comparison, the Soulstone Miner's The Earth Beneath Your Feet.

Note, for further comparison, that there are two actions which state "may be taken while Buried", Undercover Reporter's Confusion in the Ranks and Insidious Madness's Disembodied Voices.  Those two actions are capable of being used while Buried or not Buried.

 

[Ogid]

Whops, I don't know how I read your post @LeperColony but I somehow understood you were saying the oposite, that "then" linked both effects 🙈.

I think we all agree; that's not supposed to work like that, but for the wording it does.

[LeperColony]

For what it's worth, the FAQ even says "target takes 2/3/4 damage and is pushed 2" to be two separate effects.  Absent explicit text linking two changes in game state (like "models damaged by this attack suffer Injured +1"), I'm not sure they are ever dependent on each other.

[Maniacal_cackle]

@dannydb, any chance of adding a ruling to the FAQ for the world series?

Personally I favour Solkan's interpretation (which appears to be rules as intended, shouldn't work, unless I misunderstand him).

However, if you tell me my Bete now has another tool in her toolbox, I certainly won't object xD

[dannydb]

7 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

@dannydb, any chance of adding a ruling to the FAQ for the world series?

Personally I favour Solkan's interpretation (which appears to be rules as intended, shouldn't work, unless I misunderstand him).

However, if you tell me my Bete now has another tool in her toolbox, I certainly won't object xD

I'll raise it with the rules committee now

[Da Git]

On 11/2/2020 at 10:08 PM, dannydb said:

I'll raise it with the rules committee now

Did this ever get resolved?

[dannydb]

I think it's in the FAQ 

[Maniacal_cackle]

9 hours ago, Da Git said:

Did this ever get resolved?

In the vassal world series FAQ, bete noire is allowed to use the charge while on the table.

So they decided for the RAW ruling, and I think most people use it now since Wyrd has had two erratas/FAQs to address it and haven't.