Attacked by Obeisance

[Yore Huckleberry]

So, if your own model gets obeyed to attack you, does it remain friendly? I’m trying to think of why you wouldn’t relent this to put the attacker at a double negative flip, saving your hand and limiting the power of their obey action.

[Myyrä]

I already said this in another thread, but being obeyed doesn't chance the friendliness of the model in any way.

[solkan]

22 minutes ago, Yore Huckleberry said:

So, if your own model gets obeyed to attack you, does it remain friendly? I’m trying to think of why you wouldn’t relent this to put the attacker at a double negative flip, saving your hand and limiting the power of their obey action.

You'll be happy to know that you've reached one of the milestones in the process of learning the rules and their interactions.  

Quote

Regardless of control, the model does not change which models it considers friendly and which it considers an enemy. Control changes who makes the decisions; it does not change the Crew to which the model belongs.

Quote

If two friendly models are in an opposed duel, the resisting model may choose to relent before any cards are flipped. If it does, the relenting model (but not the acting model) skips Steps “A” through “D” below. The relenting model’s final duel total is treated as being the same as the acting model’s final duel total.

(and I don't want to copy/paste the accuracy modifiers).

It's three very important steps along a person's learning of the Malifaux rules interactions:

• Obey, and its use for attacking the other crew with its own models
• Relent, as a mitigating factor for Obey-generated attacks, and when you want to use a friendly attack on a friendly model without playing so many cards
• All of the times that damage for the attacker is just a bonus, and what the attacker actually wants are all of the side effects of the attack, so Relent doesn't help the defender very much.

 

[Yore Huckleberry]

5 hours ago, solkan said:

You'll be happy to know that you've reached one of the milestones in the process of learning the rules and their interactions.  

 

This does in fact make me happy. I’ve played about six games now and this ruleset is like drinking from a fire hose. I’m a refugee from Star Wars Imperial Assault (which had a great skirmish scene up to 2018) and I’m loving Malifaux so far. Most of the community has really been patient and welcoming, especially on rules interactions.

[Ogid]

11 hours ago, solkan said:

Relent, as a mitigating factor for Obey-generated attacks, and when you want to use a friendly attack on a friendly model without playing so many cards

What I wonder is how many players who call Zoraida OP know about this...

[Myyrä]

9 minutes ago, Ogid said:

What I wonder is how many players who call Zoraida OP know about this...

Very rarely is relenting going to reduce the expected damage from an attack. So, I don't think it matters to anyone who is calling Zoraida OP.

[Adran]

2 minutes ago, Ogid said:

What I wonder is how many players who call Zoraida OP know about this...

Probably a lot.

Most of the complaints about Zoraida were about her obeying to use the interact action from what I've read (Her winning a duel to allow her to use one of your models to make a duel against another one of your models where she still has to cheat to make the attack happen is resource intensive to say the least. )

That, and Relenting does come with its own issues. You know you are taking damage if you do that on most attacks. Its certainly worth knowing that you can do it, and there are times its the best option, but there are probably more times when you are much better doing the duel.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Another terrible thing about relenting is then they can cheat like a 2 of masks and get a mask trigger on the attack (or whatever suit they need). You basically turn their attack into "pick whatever trigger you want" as long as they have the right card in hand (which they quite possibly will, given Zoraida's draw ability).

[Ogid]

Maybe you are right, but I'm not so sure after the the last complaining Zoraida thread I was in; the answers given were a bit disapointing... in general the users who complained more viciously versus her overdimensioned her strenghts and didn't concede any value to the counter tech and and strategies suggested to go versus her; and no one pointed this relenting trick in the 3 pages of the discusion.

[Maniacal_cackle]

I think people just confuse NPE (negative plays experience) with OP (overpowered).

[Myyrä]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I think people just confuse NPE (negative plays experience) with OP (overpowered).

They may or may not do that, but the way Zoraida's obey interacts with two of the four strategies is pretty unacceptable.

[Yore Huckleberry]

57 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

They may or may not do that, but the way Zoraida's obey interacts with two of the four strategies is pretty unacceptable.

Yeah, the issue with Zoraida is the ability to de-position figures or force interacts on idols or to drop explosives. Burning resources like focus or Fate tokens on a rider are pretty bad too.

[Ogid]

57 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

They may or may not do that, but the way Zoraida's obey interacts with two of the four strategies is pretty unacceptable.

1 minute ago, Yore Huckleberry said:

Yeah, the issue with Zoraida is the ability to de-position figures or force interacts on idols or to drop explosives. Burning resources like focus or Fate tokens on a rider are pretty bad too.

Here we go again...

There is a lot of powerful interactions in this game and I don't think Zoraida stands out and need to be nerfed. Her shenanigan can be played around building a crew with that in mind or with a double master. Is Zoraida more or less unacceptable that things like the pale rider, Archie, Yan-Lo bringing back his entire crew again and again, summoners or Shenlong with an answer for everything? Each one has its own niche.

Obey to de-position models is simmilar to things like Lure or Terrorize and while burining the resources of the model is good, it's comparable to other models having techs crippling other kind of models. Just don't pick models that rely too much in those versus her or don't hoard these, it's like complaining that a model relying in healing get destroyed versus Kirai.

The above coment nailed it:

2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I think people just confuse NPE (negative plays experience) with OP (overpowered).

Some ways to make it harder for her:

• Stealth, concealment, anti obey abilities, kill her (stun her to disable the df trigger, non- attacks, attacks targeting Mv), kill her crew (they are annoying but not that dangerous as other crews).
• Explosives: Stealth, Reaching the other half of the table in 1 activation, double master with the explosives on them.
• Idols: Stealth, models with 1 ability that let them move more (jump, nimble, reckless, creep along) to move, interact and get out of the way (so even with a Ensorcer trigger that model won't reach the idol), models with 3 Wds that will die after interacting (if possible disposable or summonable ones), using the master to move the idols, not leaving non-master models next to an idol.