Asami's Summon Trigger - limitations

[whodares]

A situation I've recently encountered featured some confusion about Asami's Summoning Trigger "From Me". There does not seem to be a model or range limitation on the Trigger itself. Could I Summon a model and take damage to take Flicker off of a previously summoned model?

Situation::

Turn 2: Summon Jorogumo and make sure he stays alive. He charged and is out of 6" of Asami.

Turn 3 Summone whatever and hit the Trigger. Take damage and remove Flicker Tokens of the Jorogumo.

 

The exact wording:

From Me: This model may suffer any amount of irreducible damage.For each damage this model suffered, discard a Flicker Token from a Summoned model.

 

 

Reasoning as to why there is confusion: there is no "within range" clause specified and a generic Summoned model requirement allows you to take tokens off of previously symmoned models.

 

I personally think this is the correct interpretation, but my opponent called it bull----- and I ended up not doing to or he would have conceeded right there and then (Jorogumo was kicking his ass pretty hard).

[Adran]

14 minutes ago, whodares said:

Rules-wise speaking you aren't allowed to add thesame Manifested Upgrade,.

Page 6:

No matter what, however, a model cannot Attach or more copies of the same Upgrade; if it attempts do so, the second copy is discarded without effect.

 

RAW you are actually doubling the Upgrade on a model, but just discarding it right away without effect.

True. I'd forgotten that.

"The summoned model is treated as a normal model for the rest of the game" Page 32 in summoning.

If the ability looked for models with a summoning upgrade you'd be right (look at the jury) but after a model is summoned (and that action is complete), it stops being considered a summoned model. as far as I can tell.

I believe it is phrased as such because you can summon multiple models with the action.

(if your reading is right, then you don't want to mix Asami with Yan lo!  Or face any enemy summoner)

 

[Adran]

My reading of it is that it will only apply to the models summoned with the action that you are completing

I assume you don't add a new manifested upgrade to models you previously summoned each time you summon a model even though the action says add an upgrade to each summoned model.

[solkan]

How much context and English language conventions are you trying to ignore while claiming it to be the text "as written"?

Quote

Once per Turn. Name any number of Oni Minion models. The TN of this Action is 10mplus the total Cost of the named models. Summon the named models anywhere within range, then Attach a Manifested Upgrade to each Summoned model.

c From Me: This model may suffer any amount of irreducible damage. For each damage this model suffered, discard a Flicker Token from a Summoned model.

You're summoning models in the body of the effect, and then the trigger is removing flicker tokens from those summoned models.

 

[Ludvig]

I think it's quite clear it's referring to the models mentioned in the previous paragraph and as pointed out having been summoned previously isn't a game state that the game tracks so I can't really reference it.

[whodares]

4 minutes ago, Adran said:

My reading of it is that it will only apply to the models summoned with the action that you are completing

I assume you don't add a new manifested upgrade to models you previously summoned each time you summon a model even though the action says add an upgrade to each summoned model.

Rules-wise speaking you aren't allowed to add thesame Manifested Upgrade,.

Page 6:

No matter what, however, a model cannot Attach or more copies of the same Upgrade; if it attempts do so, the second copy is discarded without effect.

 

RAW you are actually doubling the Upgrade on a model, but just discarding it right away without effect.

[Reservoir Dog]

I've always thought it was the summoned model but looking at the wording it doesn't specify that it has to be one of the models Asami summoned this turn(which surprised me). As it's currently written it appears as though you could use it on any summoned model and even use it on a Katashiro summoned by Minako Rai!

[katadder]

As adran says, the model once summoned is classed as a normal model for the rest of the game that has an upgrade attached (this is why exorcism trigger mentions summon upgrades rather than summoned models).

This is just rules bending to the max and your opponent would be right to walk away if you tried to push this through

[Adran]

7 minutes ago, Reservoir Dog said:

I've always thought it was the summoned model but looking at the wording it doesn't specify that it has to be one of the models Asami summoned this turn(which surprised me). As it's currently written it appears as though you could use it on any summoned model and even use it on a Katashiro summoned by Minako Rai!

Would you put a manifested soul upgrade on a Katashiro summoned by Minako Rai the next time Asami summons a model?

Because that follows the exact same logic and language that you are have used to allow it to remove a flicker from that model. (it would also add manifested soul upgrades to any models the enemy crew had summoned when you take the action)

 

[Reservoir Dog]

6 hours ago, Adran said:

Would you put a manifested soul upgrade on a Katashiro summoned by Minako Rai the next time Asami summons a model?

Because that follows the exact same logic and language that you are have used to allow it to remove a flicker from that model. (it would also add manifested soul upgrades to any models the enemy crew had summoned when you take the action)

 

I'm not saying that I dont agree with you about the intended design (I agree 100%). What I am saying though is the trigger and attaching the manifested soul upgrade (now that you've pointed that out) are open to interpretation and that's never a good place for a set of rules to be at.  I'd imagine it's to late to change the wording but an FAQ regarding this wouldn't be a bad idea.

[solkan]

36 minutes ago, Reservoir Dog said:

I'm not saying that I dont agree with you about the intended design (I agree 100%). What I am saying though is the trigger and attaching the manifested soul upgrade (now that you've pointed that out) are open to interpretation and that's never a good place for a set of rules to be at.  I'd imagine it's to late to change the wording but an FAQ regarding this wouldn't be a bad idea.

What’s “open to interpretation”?  It’s a complicated rules system.  There are going to be common mistakes and misapprehensions (for example “Does a model taking an action activate it?”).

Disclaimer:  There is no sophistry proof rules system.  

[Reservoir Dog]

 

29 minutes ago, solkan said:

What’s “open to interpretation”?  It’s a complicated rules system.  There are going to be common mistakes and misapprehensions (for example “Does a model taking an action activate it?”).

Disclaimer:  There is no sophistry proof rules system.  

I dont want to make a big deal out of this as I'd play it the same way as everyone above. However, aren't FAQs for common mistakes and misapprehension. I just think this action  and trigger would benefit from some further clarity.