Yan Lo Struggles

[TheEmptyRoad]

Been trying to make Yan Lo work but can’t seem to find a good scheme-runner in his Keyword. I know I can just get a couple Crooligans and call it a day but I want to try and make it work in-Keyword and Gokudo just seem too fragile and schemeing is not really what they’re for.

Thoughts?

[Paddywhack]

Gokudo are OK as you know, but are fragile and better to have near your ancestors than running off alone. Ashigaru can be OK at scheming in a pinch too, especially if you summon them with Toshiro. Honestly, in keyword, the Komainu are pretty good scheme runners. They are fairly self-reliant and quite tanky unless you can ignore armor. Like Gokudo and Ashigaru they are better staying near your crew, but they can certainly work alone as needed. If you can throw them at other scheme runners they can cover a good bit of ground too. 

Otherwise you are going to have to go out of keyword to find really good schemers. 

[Fetid Strumpet]

Manos ,Yin and Gokudo are your primary scheme runners I think. Manos has leap so can drop multiple markers a turn, and has move 6 so he’s pretty fast, especially considering the other movement abilities in keyword. Yin has move 6 flight, and dark bargain, and so she herself is very fast and maneuverable, and can drop or cause to drop multiple markers in one turn. Drop a marker, move, dark bargain herself to drop a marker, or move, drop a marker, dark bargain a nearby model to drop another marker. Think or it as reckless but for marker dropping of delivering a message.

I’m not sure what you want in terms of survivability for a low cost scheme runner if you think Gokudo are too squishy. If you are bringing one, presumably you are going to use Chiaki to split the soul and give one a reliquary on turn 1. Move 7, defense 5, with a positive flip to all its duels (including defensive duels), with H2K and Face in the Crowd, as well as whatever defensive tech you put on it from the reliquary you gave it (Terror, Armor, regen, Demise (Eternal) to name a few) with the ability to drop multiple markers a turn due to Risky Manuever... I’m really not sure what more you want in a 5 stone minion for scheme running if Gokudo don’t do it well enough.

Hiring a Crooligan or two, in this keyword at least, seems a very inefficient way to scheme run since you won’t by teleporting around without more Forgotten Enforcers or Henchmen. And they will be less fast at Move 4 without any real defenses, and without the ability to drop multiple markers in a turn...for the same cost as a Gokudo...

[TheEmptyRoad]

Hm good points.

[Paddywhack]

Going out of keyword Necropunks are still better than Crooligans for the reason pointed out above. Though I've found Necropunks to die like crazy now without HtK and no self-healing. 

I forgot about Manos, but that's an expensive scheme runner - same with Yin, though Dark Bargain helps you get more mileage if others are around. 

The old man himself can also help slingshot your schemers where they need to go. 

[Kharnage]

In the one game I played of current generation Yan Lo, I just kept feeding my opponent different incarnations of Izamu while Manos and the Lone Swordsman won the scheme runner jousts and took Power Ritual / Outflank. I assume that's not a catch-all solution, but honestly, the idea of spending "too many stones" on the dudes scoring you actual points seems silly to me. Manos is an auto include simply on the basis that his reliquary is so good to Split Soul onto people, and the powered up Gokudo was plenty useful, and sufficiently difficult to bring down.

[Fetid Strumpet]

On that topic, I saw an interesting discussion on Discord and wondered what people thought here. Is Demise (X) the same ability as Demise (Y), and if so is there a rules citation to reinforce that point? 

Currently, as I read the rules, if you give, say, Izamu Manos’ reliquary he now would have two Demise abilities. Demise (Eternal) and Demise (Reliquary). If they are different abilities, then if Izamu is killed, Izamu’s controller could choose to fire Demise (Reliquary) first, thus giving another model in range Izamu’s reliquary. Then Izamu’s controller could fire Demise (Eternal) and prevent Izamu from actually dying. This is currently How I read the rules as I cannot find anywhere that specifically says that Abilities that share one word in their title are the same.

If Demise (X) and Demise (Y) are in fact the same ability, then if you give Manos’ reliquary to any model which also has a Demise ability, Manos’ cannot fire, because only the first instance of an ability will fire, their controller will not even be able to choose which Demise ability works. Which would mean that Yan Lo, and pretty much all the Ancestors could not benefit from Manos’ Reliquary, as they all already have a Demise Ability printed on their cards. At present, while I can see an argument for this interpretation, I feel it is not actually supported by rules text, and if this is the case I would love to know where, specifically, in the rules it clarifies this.

Thoughts?

[Nikodemus]

@Fetid Strumpet

page 34 on damage timing:

Quote

 

6. If a model is at 0 Health, it is killed, then resolve the following effects:

a. Resolve any effects that would Heal or Replace the killed model. If this effect would bring the model above 0 Health, it is no longer killed.

b. Resolve any After killing Triggers.

c. Any effects that resolve after the model is killed (such as placing Corpse or Scrap Markers) resolve at this point.

d. The killed model (its model, Stat Card, and any Upgrades) is removed from the game.

 

As I see it, Eternal will happen at 6a, while Reliquary happens at 6c. By my reading using Eternal at 6a stops the chain and you never get round to doing 6b, 6c or 6d.

Manos' and generic reliquary demise texts for reference:

Quote

 

Demise (Eternal): Once per Turn. After this model is killed, it may discard a card. If it does so, it Heals 4.

Demise (Reliquary): After this model is killed, a friendly model within 8" may Attach the Reliquary (X) Upgrade, where X is the name of this model.

 

 

[Fetid Strumpet]

That makes sense to me.

So in the case of Yan Lo, since his demise ability also heals him they would occur in the same step, so he could choose which ability to fire, Shatter Reliquary or Eternal, but since he would no longer be at 0 health after resolving one of them he would no longer qualify to fire the other Demise ability. 

Thank you for the citation.

 

[thewrathchilde]

Yan Lo is one where you have to choose schemes carefully as you (at least I) don't tend to have a lot of extra models or actions to devote to scheming. I like using the Gokudo or Komainu to scheme. I also frequently use Manos to scheme first turn or late turns as well and occasionally will even use Yan Lo on turn 1 to set  up schemes for later. 

It is definitely a crew where efficiency counts. Things that can minimize the amount of models and actions you have to spend on scheming can make all the difference.