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I think it's time to do something with Sandeep...

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Just now, raderk said:

So basicly hes complaining that sandeeps range is too great to the point that LoS becomes an issue. Interesting claim.

I don't think he complained at all, I think he just was emphasizing that 

 

26 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

He's got 4 useful actions that one model a turn can use assuming they have a high enough card, have LoS to Sandeep, are close enough to him (and in the case of the place ability have the right characteristics)

 

Someone else purported that he was claiming 12" was close which he clarifiied as 

12 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

I wrote "close enough" which isn't the same as  considering two models 12 inches apart to be close to each other

 

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Just now, necroon said:

I find that 12" and LOS of a HT 2 Model is pretty generous especially when Sandeep can place. This is more of a... mechanical template and commonality then a limiting factor by near any means.

I completely agree that it isn't much of a limiting factor. In my limited experience playing Sandeep it was never an issue to me (I play Neverborn almost exclusively now except the occasional practice game as another faction), I was just trying to clarify what @WWHSD said based on my interpretation.

I'm kind of coming in during a heated discussion and not really trying to derail it, but having played Sandeep I think it could alleviate some concerns people have to reduce the range of Beacon without taking much away from Sandeep himself who I don't believe is particularly OP on his own.

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Just now, so_diogenes said:

I completely agree that it isn't much of a limiting factor. In my limited experience playing Sandeep it was never an issue to me (I play Neverborn almost exclusively now except the occasional practice game as another faction), I was just trying to clarify what @WWHSD said based on my interpretation.

I'm kind of coming in during a heated discussion and not really trying to derail it, but having played Sandeep I think it could alleviate some concerns people have to reduce the range of Beacon without taking much away from Sandeep himself who I don't believe is particularly OP on his own.

Ah yeah I was more commenting in line with you then at you.... for what sense that may or may not make. Sorry about any confusion there!

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Just now, raderk said:

I dont get it, you have trouble having your sandeep in LoS with your crew?

At 12 inches? Yeah.

I don't play on many tables that have a lot of long sight lines. My opponents tend to block LoS to models that they don't want using Sandeep's actions or benefiting from Warding Runes.

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24 minutes ago, necroon said:

I find that 12" and LOS of a HT 2 Model is pretty generous especially when Sandeep can place. This is more of a... mechanical template and commonality then a limiting factor by near any means.

I was listing off the requirements for a model to be able to Beacon, not citing 12 inches as some real limitation. I usually end up with LoS issues way before 12 inches.

If Sandeep is having to use his place so that another model can Beacon, I'm either burning a stone or using a card that another model would have used to place, leap, or push unless I got really lucky with a handful of masks.

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4 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

 I was listing off the requirements for a model to be able to Beacon, not citing 12 inches as some real limitation. I usually end up with LoS issues way before 12 inches.

If Sandeep is having to use his place so that another model can Beacon, I'm either burning a stone or using a card that another model would have used to place, leap, or push unless I got really lucky with a handful of masks.

Try taking the upgrade that removes LoS as a requirement for academic models. it also does other silly things like let you hire academics out of faction, draw a card when another model discards a card (for a point of damage) and lets academics not randomize onto targets within aura 6 of sandeep.

also he has a cache of 4 so stoning for a suit isn't the worst use of a stone or two.

As for the topic, i had suggested before limiting beacon to gamin and academic, or card discard each time you use beacon, or even just putting the whole ability on a limited upgrade. The sheer amount of flexibility sandeep has is what makes him such an issue imho.

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42 minutes ago, necroon said:

Not sure the language is necessary here, mate, but I certainly would not be were that the case as my entire point was that I believed the -1 CA Penalty is insufficient. -2 is a good step and has precedent. -2 and a suit requirement or something about triggers is even better.

I had to reread what I wrote three or four times until I figured out what you meant be  "Not sure the language is necessary here". No offense was meant. I'm guessing what I wrote may be stronger in different parts of the English speaking world. Would "whinging" have been better?

I'll take you at your word that you think that needing a 7+ would stop the complaints but I respectfully disagree. I suspect that if Beacon was a -2 Ca penalty from the day book 4 was released that we'd still be here having this conversion.

For the record, I don't have an issue with Sandeep getting some adjustments. I'm against nerfs that hurt the faction across the board that come at the same time that Sandeep is getting "fixed". I'm also against just straight up nerfs to Sandeep since I believe that the problem with him is primarily one of internal faction balance and not that he is brokenly good when compared to the most competitive masters in other factions. It seems like any package of nerfs that are enough to cause Arcanist players to migrate away from Sandeep may very well be enough to leave him underpowered and without a niche.  

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12 minutes ago, Nutella said:

Try taking the upgrade that removes LoS as a requirement for academic models. it also does other silly things like let you hire academics out of faction, draw a card when another model discards a card (for a point of damage) and lets academics not randomize onto targets within aura 6 of sandeep.

also he has a cache of 4 so stoning for a suit isn't the worst use of a stone or two.

As for the topic, i had suggested before limiting beacon to gamin and academic, or card discard each time you use beacon, or even just putting the whole ability on a limited upgrade. The sheer amount of flexibility sandeep has is what makes him such an issue imho.

The build that people in Poland are busting out the pitchforks and torches over doesn't use that upgrade so I've been trying to limit myself to discussing that particular loadout on Sandeep (Arcane Reservoir, Seize The Day, and either Commands or Visions depending on the pool). 

Sandeep typically burns a stone or two on suits each turn when I've played him. It's nothing insurmountable but forcing Sandeep to spend resources so that his crew can Beacon puts him in a place he'd rather not be.

I think the biggest problem with limiting Beacon to Academics and Gamin is that it gives another reason that three Oxfordian Mages are the first thing hired in every Sandeep crew.  Even if something was done that made hiring something like a pair of Gunsmiths instead of 3 Mages a viable option for most players, the ability to use Beacon would keep the Mages around.

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2 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

I had to reread what I wrote three or four times until I figured out what you meant be  "Not sure the language is necessary here". No offense was meant. I'm guessing what I wrote may be stronger in different parts of the English speaking world. Would "whinging" have been better?

I have no idea what a "whinging" is so I  can't say. "Complaining" would have been a perfectly neutral word. 

Quote


For the record, I don't have an issue with Sandeep getting some adjustments. I'm against nerfs that hurt the faction across the board that come at the same time that Sandeep is getting "fixed". I'm also against just straight up nerfs to Sandeep since I believe that the problem with him is primarily one of internal faction balance and not that he is brokenly good when compared to the most competitive masters in other factions. It seems like any package of nerfs that are enough to cause Arcanist players to migrate away from Sandeep may very well be enough to leave him underpowered and without a niche. 

I don't think bringing a tool-box of "all the good things in game" will ever leave a master feeling underpowered unless said master can only do them with some small populated characteristics that only contain subpar models.

The fact that some other Masters are worse off on the offenders lists by no means prevents a conversation from happening and it shouldn't. Would I rather them look at Sandeep or Nicodem right now? My answer is "yes" because it can be. I would not also limit his effectiveness solely to being better then other masters that have balance issues (in that they are bad) - When people are going to take you over Marcus a ton and in basically every scenario that speaks volumes in of itself.

Arcanists boasts a powerful suite of incredibly good models and Masters. I don't see a ton of limitation to bad keywords like "Fey" or "Swampfiend" to limit interactions, I don't see a ton of double stuffed suits outside of summoning (example: Stat 6:ToS-Tome: TN 14:ToS-Tome::ToS-Mask:), and I don't see a ton of buffs regulated by station. I see good strong stat lines, armor, and speed. Plus at this point they have a very decent number of Masters that can bring summoning to the table which is incredibly powerful even with limitations on use. 

If people leave Sandeep in droves and all flock to one other master that isn't because Sandeep should not have been adjusted: it's because people have a habit of downplaying effectiveness of anything that was better before or because Arcanists has an internal master balance issue that should not prevent balance changes happening for the good of the game. Balance problems should not be left problems because they may encourage other choices or bring other things to light. I imagine after a Sandeep adjustment people will bump over to Marcus which is an entirely different conversation all together. 

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8 minutes ago, necroon said:

I have no idea what a "whinging" is so I  can't say. "Complaining" would have been a perfectly neutral word. 

I didn't see the "New" in "New England". It's "whining". "Complaining" is too neutral a word for what I meant.

 

 

12 minutes ago, necroon said:

If people leave Sandeep in droves and all flock to one other master that isn't because Sandeep should not have been adjusted: it's because people have a habit of downplaying effectiveness of anything that was better before or because Arcanists has an internal master balance issue that should not prevent balance changes happening for the good of the game. Balance problems should not be left problems because they may encourage other choices or bring other things to light. I imagine after a Sandeep adjustment people will bump over to Marcus which is an entirely different conversation all together. 

I guess that's the big disconnect we have. In my opinion the main reason Sandeep would need to be touched is an internal faction balance issue. If any nerfs don't fix those faction balance issues then they totally missed their purpose. 

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6 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

For the record, I don't have an issue with Sandeep getting some adjustments. I'm against nerfs that hurt the faction across the board that come at the same time that Sandeep is getting "fixed".

But (almost) nobody in this thread wants to nerf anything that is not a Sandeep except some changes made for Imbued Energies (In my opinion - changing card draw to trigger only when a model is killed or sacrificed by enemy model). Changes for Sandeep (and other top masters) are necessary for sake of the game.

21 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

I'm also against just straight up nerfs to Sandeep since I believe that the problem with him is primarily one of internal faction balance and not that he is brokenly good when compared to the most competitive masters in other factions.

I have to disagree with you. He probably would be equally good in any faction due to his versatility. He offers good attack options (10" CA 5 with 3/4/5 damage spread with possibility to receive :+flip to damage, as well as push to move friendly/enemy model) and solid (0) actions that are great especially for models without them or that have not-so-great free actions (Oxfordian Mages). He is top master right now, mostly due to fact, that he has almost best way of obtaining fourth AP per turn (Only Collodi can do it easier or at lower cost) - that's why I posted a suggestion few pages before to change suit required for Student of All from :ToS-Tome: to :ToS-Crow: - first of all, if a model would use his Arcane Storm it would still need to have this suit and second - Oxfordian mages wouldn't be able to  always grant it due to using any of his abilities while standing next to each other. Also, increasing penalty from -1 CA to -2 CA is good step towards balancing this master - CA 4 attacks are still good for cheap, summonable minions (like Gamins). 

 

5 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

The build that people in Poland are busting out the pitchforks and torches over doesn't use that upgrade so I've been trying to limit myself to discussing that particular loadout on Sandeep (Arcane Reservoir, Seize The Day, and either Commands or Visions depending on the pool). 

Actually in Poland Seize the Day is often switched for the Unaligned Sage.

3 minutes ago, necroon said:

because Arcanists has an internal master balance issue that should not prevent balance changes happening for the good of the game.

This.

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I've read whole your discussion guys, that was interested but here comes some questions - Do u agree that even if Sandeep somehow gets nerf it won't help other masters to play better against those in top tier? Yes, I agree it not even close interesting to play Malifaux when u find out your opponent plays Sandeep but there are bunch of other strong Masters that are pain in the ass as Sandeep is. Wouldn't it better to discuss how to Improve lower tier masters instead of nerfing greatly balanced top tier? Yes, some might not like tier discussion but in my IMHO lots of book 1-3 masters should be rebalanced. 

As a mostly Guild player I'm fairly disappointed in Sonia, some might disagree but she is kinda boring champ that is very dependant on models she brings in. And if didn't took Effigy, Francisco and M. Child it's gg wp u auto loose cause all she can is Shoot, no mobility, no scheme and very dependant on models that for example so often mentioned here Sandeep is great Caster and is not even close with any of those problems. 

Justice and Hoffman got their book 5 buff but there are still lots of masters that once u see them on the table it's like oh my god it will be one sided game... 

Can't say about Lucius and Morning since I don't play them, so all is left are Perdita (thanks gg18) McCaib and Nellie two stars that can do something and have a 50-50 chance. 

If we mention other Faction masters we can find there same problems... Yes, everyone is interesting but not everyone is good as top tier. For example Kaeris is very funny master, but u never match Sandeep since he has more printed  damage, more activations, better sustain and only looses in mobility that makes me cry.... 

 

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The thing is, top tier is really wacky right now with that sandeep and nicodem. If you want to be everything their lvl you'd have to buff every single other master. And second thing, since weaker masters sees lower amount of play they might be underestimated. Remember that December 2017 Misaki? I do, it was horrible. I dont want something like that to happen again.

About sonnia really think about papa loco and guild investigator. Shes really good with combo - pushing her with investigator, giving her all the buffs, then moving her with grimwell, chaining into grimwell and blasting enemy into oblivion. You can use few expert sleuths to give her second activation once you win initiative, and voila, sonnia is perfectly viable now.

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1 minute ago, WWHSD said:

Arcane Storm is 2/4/5.

 

My bad. It's still very strong attack for cheap models.

3 minutes ago, Rillan said:

I've read whole your discussion guys, that was interested but here comes some questions - Do u agree that even if Sandeep somehow gets nerf it won't help other masters to play better against those in top tier? Yes, I agree it not even close interesting to play Malifaux when u find out your opponent plays Sandeep but there are bunch of other strong Masters that are pain in the ass as Sandeep is. Wouldn't it better to discuss how to Improve lower tier masters instead of nerfing greatly balanced top tier? Yes, some might not like tier discussion but in my IMHO lots of book 1-3 masters should be rebalanced. 

To be honest, I've seen many more Lady Justice, Mah, Ironsides, Titania, Von Schiil, Yan Lo, Tara and Hoffman after release of wave 5 than it was before and the gap between the top and the bottom tier masters is smaller than before. There are few masters that require few (sometimes small) nerfs (Zipp, Collodi, Hamelin, Nico etc.) and few that require buff of some sort (Kaeris, Mei feng, Colette - only to name a few). The rebalance process is desired, however, any changes should be made very careful to not overbuff the master and turn them into new Sandeeps.

 

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1 minute ago, raderk said:

The thing is, top tier is really wacky right now with that sandeep and nicodem. If you want to be everything their lvl you'd have to buff every single other master. And second thing, since weaker masters sees lower amount of play they might be underestimated. Remember that December 2017 Misaki? I do, it was horrible. I dont want something like that to happen again.

About sonnia really think about papa loco and guild investigator. Shes really good with combo - pushing her with investigator, giving her all the buffs, then moving her with grimwell, chaining into grimwell and blasting enemy into oblivion. You can use few expert sleuths to give her second activation once you win initiative, and voila, sonnia is perfectly viable now.

U mentioned same problem in different words. Sonia is nothing without supporting models. She can't scheme, she is low on defending and only thing she can do good/great is shooting. It's even  a problem to leave engagement cause with Mi5 u mostly don't want to fight model engaging u

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Theres masters who does even less without their crew - lucius, colette, zoraida. Really, your complaining that sonnia isnt standalone but she has interactions with her band? Its a theme for a lot of crews to be more than sum of its parts.

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30 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

I didn't see the "New" in "New England".

I legitimately don't follow and would legitimately like to. But  "whining" would be fine. 

 

30 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

I guess that's the big disconnect we have. In my opinion the main reason Sandeep would need to be touched is an internal faction balance issue. If any nerfs don't fix those faction balance issues then they totally missed their purpose. 

I don't agree, as I sure you can guess. The purpose of making Sandeep less strong is to make him less strong. A Faction having internal balance issues is no reason to allow something not balanced into play against everyone else. I'd certainly like everything to be balanced against everything and internal faction balance to exist (I don't agree that Arcanists have an internal balance issue aside from Sandeep overshadowing other masters except maybe Marcus but that's not something I'd like to get into in this thread nor something that needs to be discussed) but if I have to pick one over the other it's overall game health. Note that I'd rather not pick and don't think the pick has to be made by anyone. 

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4 minutes ago, Cedar said:

To be honest,

They don't need huge buff, like slight Stat or ability changes might help and nothing more is needed cause when it goes with Upgrades that become auto-take it's not a balance. It a jail cause it makes u restricted on options what u can do. 

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Its still progress isnt it? I'm afraid we will never hit that golden balance with all masters being competetive and each one offering few different playstyles. We should focus on what we have now, and now we have sandeep trouble.

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3 minutes ago, raderk said:

Theres masters who does even less without their crew - lucius, colette, zoraida. Really, your complaining that sonnia isnt standalone but she has interactions with her band? Its a theme for a lot of crews to be more than sum of its parts.

She has interactions or the band helps her to not be so immobile cannon that as itself barely can do something? For me there is difference. IMHO but she better loose some damage options in favor to mobility/defence cause once Francisco died she comes as glasccanon. 

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lose not loose. And i respect your right to have that opinion. you should make a thread about it and discuss this topic if you consider it important ;) But this topic is more about balanace issue named Sandeep Desai and derailing it might not be the best idea :)

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Sandeep and the models commonly used with him have a very versatile toolbox (summoning, actions outside activation, pushes and places, card draws, defensive abilities, + to attack flips) with few weaknesses. On top of that, because in a typical Sandeep list there are multiple models that can borrow his actions, you can't really stop that by eliminating a particular model - if you kill one, most of the time another model will use beacon.

At the moment, when playing against Sandeep, it's definitely not only player skill that decides who comes out on top - I keep seeing games where Sandeep player would, by their own admission, make plenty of mistakes and still win even though their opponent gave their best performance. Don't get me wrong - Sandeep is not unbeatable and requires considerable skill to be used effectively. Still, at the moment, a Sandeep crew in capable hands has no hard counters and a great edge over most other crews in the game and in most scheme pools, and I can see no other master that would get this kind of advantage in comparable number of matchups and scenarios.

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